So why are there no good electronics shops?

an industrial powerhouse that supplies the whole industry?

oh I wouldnt go quite that far, we use digikey for small quantity items (like reels of 5000) for prototypes and they quickly hit the radio shack argument, great when you need stuff fairly fast, but you pay for it. Support wise, while places like arrow and avnet show up regularly to make sure we are getting what we need, buying us lunches and sprinkling us with eval-boards, digikey shorted us a significant quantity of LED's ... 4 phone calls and 2 hours after the van load of demos left they finally showed up a week too late (and I have never met a DK rep).

for small fry people like most of us, they are pretty nice to have around, but the whole industry? meh.

Osgeld:

an industrial powerhouse that supplies the whole industry?

oh I wouldnt go quite that far, we use digikey for small quantity items (like reels of 5000) for prototypes and they quickly hit the radio shack argument, great when you need stuff fairly fast, but you pay for it. Support wise, while places like arrow and avnet show up regularly to make sure we are getting what we need, buying us lunches and sprinkling us with eval-boards, digikey shorted us a significant quantity of LED's ... 4 phone calls and 2 hours after the van load of demos left they finally showed up a week too late (and I have never met a DK rep).

for small fry people like most of us, they are pretty nice to have around, but the whole industry? meh.

I guess one would have to research the total sales figures for Arrow, Avnet, Digikey, and others to see who the how they rank up. But I'm too lazy to do that I guess. :wink:

There's an electronics store near me I used to get most of my parts at 20 years ago, they have aisles full of components in little baggies. Last time I was there the baggies were covered in dust, the labels were fading, and they still want $25 for a PICF84 (far better, newer pin-compatible chips are about $2 online). I can buy a bag of 5 resistors there for the same price as 100 online with free shipping. I'd probably be willing to shop there when I don't feel like waiting 3 weeks for a part, but they don't seem to have anything newer than about 2002.

They're always empty and I don't know how they stay in business (though they still and always have supplied parts for industrial customers too).

10 years back we lived in a tiny village at the southernmost tip of Africa ( L'Agulhas ) at the end of a dead end road , 260 kM from the nearest city ( Cape Town ) , and 86 kM from the nearest main road.

RS Components had an arrangement with a courier company for delivery anywhere in South Africa at a fixed price, and one day I ordered a small plastic bush for something - 2 bucks worth I think - and a few days later the courier van pulled up to deliver the little envelope.
Thats about a five hour round trip.

I dont know if they still do this, but I see RS have closed down there shop in Cape Town !

I dont know if they still do this,

I doubt it.

I see RS have closed down there shop in Cape Town !

Wonder why :slight_smile:


Rob

Yes, you just cant get good service since the recession :slight_smile:

Recession, what recession? ... oh hang on, most of the world had a financial crisis a couple of years ago eh?


Rob

Didn't hit Walkabout Creek then Rob ?

No, most of that flew right over our heads here in Oz, thanks mostly to the Chinese wanting all of our minerals.

Walkabout Creek

I've been to the pub they used in the movie, it was moved out to a more major road because it's original location was too far off the tourist track.


Rob

Graynomad:
Recession, what recession? ... oh hang on, most of the world had a financial crisis a couple of years ago eh?


Rob

Nice, I thought you would have been hit hard due to the dip in tourism. I know it hit us hard in Maine.

it was moved out to a more major road because it's original location was too far off the tourist track.

That takes away a bit of authenticity perhaps ( for those who dont recognise Walkabout Creek and its pub - it was in the movie Crocodile Dundee )

So the massive road train trucks going by was a bit far fetched then :slight_smile:

Glad you didnt have the recession, or perhaps your life style made you miss it !

So the massive road train trucks going by was a bit far fetched then

Not necessarily, they get to some pretty out of the way places. I've seen 4-trailer road trains in the middle of nowhere.

or perhaps your life style made you miss it !

That may be part of it :slight_smile:

Actually now that I think about it the missus and I both we lost a lot in our superannuation, so I guess we weren't totally unscathed.


Rob

I think there isn't sufficient opportunity to grow up electronics shops that's why there is no good electronics shops.

wizdum:
Actually, due to all the regulation here, the difference is more than a few dollars. If an iPad 2 were made in America, it would cost $1,144.02 USD, instead of $400 USD.

Do you have a source for that quote? The only reason I ask is that I work in the manufacturing sector. True, a lot of appliances and so on have wandered offshore for a variety of reasons but I see no good reason why Apple could not replicate the same assembly lines it had in the US to make its computers way back when.

Consider this: On a typical US appliance, US labor, depreciation, regulations, etc. typically make up less than 15-20% of the COGS. That's my experience based on hundreds of teardowns, across a wide swath of appliances. I've visited many US manufacturers competing successfully with Chinese-made goods, even in commodity markets. It can be done. But the big temptation is to 'throw the problem over the wall', design the thing, market it, etc. but let someone else deal with making it. Fewer headaches, fewer on-book assets, etc. I get it, but certainly not a 'must'. And Apple has the scale to make any hard tooling worthwhile, if they wanted to.

Plus, a big danger IMO is no longer being at the cutting edge of what's possible - and hence losing sight of innovations in manufacturing, design and so on, because someone else is doing that for you. Once you lose sight of what things 'should' cost, the probability of negotiating with a reasonable chance of getting a good deal diminishes accordingly. Apple has done a remarkable job of bringing in outside experts, acquiring the companies, etc. to help them overcome these issues, and one can also argue the other side, i.e. it's easier to abandon old manufacturing techniques, etc. when one does not own assets that are going to turn into sunk costs.

The regulation boogeyman is trotted out repeatedly when it comes to explaining why manufacturing of electronics has moved to Asia. However, I believe the real answer is that the workers over there tolerate working conditions that are not acceptable in the US. Allowed, but not acceptable. Hiring and firing of vast numbers over 'here' is simply not as possible / easy /etc. as it is over 'there'. The US government also does not subsidize to the same extent as local, state, and federal agencies do in China, for example.

The other issue is that the sources for all the chips, components, etc. have moved over there long ago. So, the US no longer features a local infrastructure for many of the parts inside an iPad, just as the shoe industry, for example. That in itself makes local manufacturing (or assembly) more difficult because shipping the components separately from China vs. a single finished assembly is fraught with supply-chain issues. Plus, iPads and so on are so dense in terms of value vs. volume that air-shipping the stuff is the preferred method. Plus, it helps that the Chinese are willing to work for 1/10th the wages of a typical US worker.

The US could adopt some of the protectionist policies like Brazil and force local assembly of phones, iPads, etc. but ultimately, if you look at what the Chinese gain from the sale of an iPad vs. the profit that Apple reaps in selling them, I'd wager that Apple and it's shareholders is getting a pretty darn good deal. As supply chains consolidate and the Foxconns of the world attempt to reap higher margins, you may see manufacturing returning to companies like Apple. The companies that I see succeeding best producing in high-cost labor markets the world over are the ones that mass-customize locally to suit the tastes of the end-consumer.

Here is one of many: How Much Would the iPad 2 Cost If It Were Made in the U.S.? About $1,140 - The Atlantic

Although that cites a price of $729 (probably the pre-iPad 3 price). I grabbed the $400 price from the Apple Store when I made that post. Apple's refusal to lower their 38% - 55% profit margin has a lot to do with it, i'd imagine.

I don't see American workers ever working in the conditions that we see in China, and thats a bad thing. People over here have this idea that they should get paid for doing a crappy job, simply because their job is "hard".

That the article is fundamentally flawed in it's assumptions is unfortunate.

What the Chinese do is to substitute labor for capital. Humans are wonderful in terms of how adaptable they are. Plus, we're talking contract manufacturers who are notoriously resistant re: making investments on behalf if fickle clients.

However in the US, labor is substituted with hard tooling, especially at iPad manufacturing volumes. Us mfg labor per the BLS is only $16/hr and $24 with bennies.

what does this have to do with the topic at hand?

I apologize for the tangent but the issue had to do with the physical infrastructure of hardware supplies and assembly having moved to China and hence there being no viable infrastructure in the US to supply budding electronic wunderkinds. Along with the assertion that US-made iPads have to cost multiples of what they cost being made in China.

I do think that we are at a disadvantage in the US re: a good electronic component supply base. However, I'll also assert that part of the problem is the lack of demand - ie if rat shack and similar companies can't make money stocking 15 cent regulators and selling them for $2, then it's only logical for them to stick to selling cell phones, toys, etc.

IMO the problem is deeper, ie no or little positive reinforcement for kids to have a good role model re the benefits of science and engineering. In most schools, the geeks are marginalized, not put on a pedestal like jocks. Until that changes, I imagine you'll continue to see a drought in the engineering fields. That, and the discrepancy in pay re: finance-related work vs. engineering.

Constantin:
I apologize for the tangent but the issue had to do with the physical infrastructure of hardware supplies and assembly having moved to China and hence there being no viable infrastructure in the US to supply budding electronic wunderkinds. Along with the assertion that US-made iPads have to cost multiples of what they cost being made in China.

I do think that we are at a disadvantage in the US re: a good electronic component supply base. However, I'll also assert that part of the problem is the lack of demand - ie if rat shack and similar companies can't make money stocking 15 cent regulators and selling them for $2, then it's only logical for them to stick to selling cell phones, toys, etc.

IMO the problem is deeper, ie no or little positive reinforcement for kids to have a good role model re the benefits of science and engineering. In most schools, the geeks are marginalized, not put on a pedestal like jocks. Until that changes, I imagine you'll continue to see a drought in the engineering fields. That, and the discrepancy in pay re: finance-related work vs. engineering.

So, to bring this back around, there are few electronic shops because there are few people that would actually be interested in purchasing from them. Everyone here likes online stores like Digikey (they can compete better on price), but to a student, or someone new to hardware, that can be a little overwhelming. If you try to look up "5v linear regulator" on digikey, you get over 22,000 results.

Online stores certainly have their appeal in terms of selection, cost, and ease of getting components reliably. However, just as displacing the local butcher, baker, etc. losing the independents has side effects. For one, I expect it's harder now for small hardware companies to break into distribution than before. Then, there are the fickle vagaries of what the supermarkets of chip happiness may or may not stock.

Take the MAX3280 - a great little SOT23 package that allows you to receive RS485 signals. One day Digikey carries it, the next time I tried to order it, it was out of stock, just like some Atmega chips. Yes, there are alternatives to Digikey (Mouser, Allied, and Newark come to mind) but they're limited.

Then, there is the loss of the local 'watering hole' where fellow enthusiasts can meet. I guess Maker Faires, Artists Asylums, etc. make up a bit for all that, but most of us congregate here for a reason.