Closed (ouch) or Open Hardware new Uno's ?

Slotting in a locked-identifier magic USB chip solution with a potential $2000 USD barrier of entry to anybody just for a USB VID.

Perhaps a group of clone makers could band together to purchase one vendor ID. Hell, we could even have a whip round.

If Arduino themselves aren't prepared to release PIDs I don't see that the only other solution is for everyone making a clone board to go out and spend $2k on a VID.

A decent business model for Arduino may be to release one PID for non-commercial use and then sell PIDs for commercial use. I realise this might not fit with your open-source, open-use ethos but I think it's a fair way for Arduino to get some benefit from commercial solutions and, of course, nobody would have to purchase a PID. Etiher they could purchase their own VID, or grab a PID from the open-VID I suggested.

Well I have something in mind for all this...

We'll have to see how the new IDE works with all this and what can be done then.

Mowcius

@Cow

Great minds think alike. :smiley:

Just a thought: any people here who'd consider chipping (pun intended) in to buy a vendor id for this community? If, for example, one hundred people put in $20, we could maybe (would need to check the regulations) buy a vendor ID and divide the pIDs amongst the participants - perhaps allocating spares to community endorsed/interesting projects?

Someone had the same thinking as me.

People can raise a few thousand for a single non-open source project, why can't we raise a few thousand as an open source community to get an arduino-type PID...

Mowcius

Great minds think alike.

And fools seldom differ :wink:

Sounds like a plan.

But yes, we'd probably need to see how the IDE responds to different vIDs/pIDs to know whether this would work the way we'd like.

IF we're reading this whole thing correctly and were able to get a vID as we're discussing, I would hope the Arduino team would ensure the IDE will play ball.

[edit]
Actually... is the IDE open-source? I've never looked. That being true it shouldn't be too hard to get it to work with different USB vendor IDs.
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So if we got a community VID there would be over 65000 different boards that it could be allocated to right?

That'd be plenty for the whole group of us...

Mowcius

But yes, we'd probably need to see how the IDE responds to different vIDs/pIDs to know whether this would work the way we'd like.

So 0020 is going to be released today...

Lets wait a week or so until we go ahead with anything. As we are all saying, we need to find out how the whole thing is going to work.

[edit]

Actually... is the IDE open-source? I've never looked. That being true it shouldn't be too hard to get it to work with different USB vendor IDs.

Yes but it'd be much better if people didn't have to modify something to get other boards to work. A load of people seem to be rather against that.
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Mowcius

I believe so, yes. According to USB.org, product IDs are assigned by the vendor as they see fit.

There's also versioning info in the device descriptors which could (in a pinch) be used to support different devices - but in one driver file.

I just checked something, Mitsumi (0x03ee) have product ids ranging from 0x0000 (cd-rom drive) to 0xFFFF (bluecore dongle) so it looks like the whole range is ok to use.

Actually... is the IDE open-source? I've never looked. That being true it shouldn't be too hard to get it to work with different USB vendor IDs.

The IDE won't be locked to Arduino-only. While I can't be bothered to go and check, Massimo said that arduinos would pop up as genuine arduino and everything else wouldn't.

I've realised that this discussion really isn't relevant to me. As a hobbyist rather than any kind of supplier this is for someone else to sort out.

If people do decide to go for a community VID I'll happily chuck some cash in but otherwise I don't really care.

I can understand the Arduino team here... but I hope it doesn't backfire on them...

There are a number of manufacturers who make *duino like boards, and in policy with the Arduino license, name their boards differently. They do exactly as the team wants, so this should be fine.

Some other manufacturers make boards in violation of the license terms. 'Arduino made in China' and such.

Locking the USB vid will only affect the first group of manufacturers and the hobbyists. The group who already violate the license terms, will copy the USB details without any problems.

The suggested solution provided here, supplying a USB number for clones, integrated into the driver package, would be a very decent solution, which would satify both hobbists and the group of willing manufacturers alike.

My 2 cents... and I really love the changes that were done... although I do share some of the concerns presented here.

If people do decide to go for a community VID I'll happily chuck some cash in but otherwise I don't really care.

I don't think anyone will chose not to...

Companies like seeedstudio and others who make their own (popular) boards will probably be willing to give something towards this (or maybe they'll just buy their own VID).

I suggest a common 'duino' name for non-official arduino boards or something similar but obviously a specific device ID can be supplied for each board.

Mowcius

The IDE won't be locked to Arduino-only. While I can't be bothered to go and check, Massimo said that arduinos would pop up as genuine arduino and everything else wouldn't.

I think he said that the IDE would support any devices on a serial port - but, potentially at least, the new USB way wouldn't show up as a serial port.

So board-makers would either have to use the FTDI serial, use their own vID/pID and a suitable driver to make it act like a serial port, or have their vID/pID supported by the Arduino team driver/IDE itself.

What this effectively means is: you can't just download the schems from Arduino.cc and use them "as is". You'd have to deal with these comms issues somehow yourself.

Apologies - just reading the info on the Uno and it appears the design DOES show up as a virtual com port in the same way as the old system.

So there shouldn't be any concerns re: IDE since the same could probably be implemented with relative ease. And just different vID/pIDs used.

What this effectively means is: you can't just download the schems from Arduino.cc and use them "as is". You'd have to deal with these comms issues somehow yourself.

Surely as a hobbyist if I built my own I'd just set the vid/pid to an arduino uno?

I can't see any practical way of Arduino stopping that happening, I can't see any practical way of Arduino acting against people who do that and I can't see how it would damage the Arduino brand in any way.
It's just people making and selling clone boards who need to worry, and as a commercial enterprise they need to adapt to the market or die. Sounds a bit harsh, but that's capitalism.

I also don't think it's any concern of Arduinos. I know it has been said that it's not open-source and it's damaging to the community but if you think making a profit from open-source stuff is a priority and something that needs to be protected then I think you've got the wrong idea about open-source.

The old boards will all show up as all serial ports will still be able to be selected.

The thing that some people are getting at is that the arduino will come up differently as an official board and to be honest, if I was making boards, I would want them to come up the same as what device they are.

2K for a VID is not too expensive in the whole scheme of things. Maybe for an individual hobbyist but not for a whole hobbyist community or a larger company producing arduino 'clone' boards.

Mowcius

It's just people making and selling clone boards who need to worry, and as a commercial enterprise they need to adapt to the market or die. Sounds a bit harsh, but that's capitalism.

True - but this is supposed to be open-source right?

One of the best things about the Arduino platform is the availability of different boards. I mentioned in another thread that I didn't think a direct clone was really in the spirit of things, but someone who uses the Arduino team's "source" to offer a tweaked board is doing a great thing.

I'm thinking right now of the R2Duino, which I love. A simple, small Arduino with two built-in relays. I want guys to be able to produce stuff like this... and for it to work without too much hassle at my end. (As it does now). If they're forced to either find the skills to integrate their own FTDI/Serial method (instead of being able to use the "source" schematics and tweak the bits they can) OR to pay $2000 for their own vID then it's going to impact the ability of the little guys to produce these unique variations.

Edit: And wouldn't stop the Farnells, Seeedstudios, DFRobotics etc. of the world from cloning the hard work of the Arduino team.

I'm thinking right now of the R2Duino, which I love. A simple, small Arduino with two built-in relays. I want guys to be able to produce stuff like this... and for it to work without too much hassle at my end. (As it does now). If they're forced to either find the skills to integrate their own FTDI/Serial method (instead of being able to use the "source" schematics and tweak the bits they can) OR to pay $2000 for their own vID/pID then it's going to impact the ability of the little guys to produce these unique variations.

Firstly, when I had a quick look I couldn't see any difference between the duemilanove and the uno other than the switch from FTDI to this new thing. So, if I were creating a clone I can't really see the benefit of switching from something I'm already using and know works problem free to a new thing whose main difference is that it'll cost me $2k.
Secondly, as we've already seen it's unlikely to cost $2k given three of us had the idea of purchasing a community VID straight away. Given the size and strenth of the arduino community I can't see a problem with us raising $2k beyond the who collects it and then who adminsitrates the VID.

So, if I were creating a clone I can't really see the benefit of switching from something I'm already using and know works problem free to a new thing whose main difference is that it'll cost me $2k.

Oh I agree - I'm thinking a little way down the line. When the Duemilanove etc. has long been forgotten or where basing projects on the newer platforms is preferred.