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Community => Bar Sport => Topic started by: graynomad on Oct 19, 2012, 01:26 am

Title: 32-bits is the new 8-bits
Post by: graynomad on Oct 19, 2012, 01:26 am
I got the usual email from Element14 today with the latest specials, two of which were these

(http://www.robgray.com/temp/e14.png)

Hands up all those who want to buy an 8-bit single chip for 30% more than a whole 32-bit development board :)

Yeah I know one's probably subsidised or whatever, but is it any wonder some people are moving away from 8-bitters.

I've seen 32-bit processors for as little as $1.10 and $1.50 is common, whereas the Mega328 as used in the standard Arduinos is ~$3.

32-bits is the new 8-bits.

______
Rob
Title: Re: 32-bits is the new 8-bits
Post by: Boffin1 on Oct 19, 2012, 01:35 am
I am just getting to know 8 bit Arduino Rob,  don't move the goalposts unless it works with the only IDE I know a little of :-)
Title: Re: 32-bits is the new 8-bits
Post by: retrolefty on Oct 19, 2012, 01:58 am
Quote
32-bits is the new 8-bits.


I have little doubt that the 32 bit microcontroller is already or will become the defacto standard in industry and most likely even down to the hobby level. As we arduino folks write in the C/C++ language anyway the difference is kind of moot for beginners wanting to learn programming.

However even thought one can't stop the tide I will state I still feel the 8 bit DIP packaged microcontroller along with it's strong output pin current capacity still has advantages for the beginners wanting to learn basic electronics via microcontroller projects. Also the ease in which one can take a programmed chip out of a Uno's chip socket and easily mount and wire it into a dedicated project board will be missed by some of us. So while I've already bought my first 32 bitter, the Teensy 3.0, it will be a long time before I stop using my herd of AVR based boards and my stock of blank 328p chips.  8)

Lefty
Title: Re: 32-bits is the new 8-bits
Post by: graynomad on Oct 19, 2012, 02:11 am
Quote
don't move the goalposts

Actually I'm all for some stability even if that means not being at the bleeding edge. Boards are coming out so fast these days that you can't keep up and from a developer's point of view it's so hard to decide what to design a board for I've pretty much given up and gone back to the main processor on my current project being an ATmega32U4 as used in the Leonardo. (OK there's an 32-bitter in there as a co-processor :) but that's just a peripheral chip and another story)

@Lefty
Agreed, one day you just won't be able to buy the simpler more robust chips in much the same way as you can no longer buy a simple car without any computer crap in it. What people will do then I don't know, breakout boards with built in IO buffers I guess.

Maybe there's an opening there for a bright young lad, a 32-bitter with IO buffers on a DIP carrier.

______
Rob
Title: Re: 32-bits is the new 8-bits
Post by: retrolefty on Oct 19, 2012, 02:22 am
Quote
Maybe there's an opening there for a bright young lad, a 32-bitter with IO buffers on a DIP carrier.


Well the Teensy 3.0 is already half that requirement. It's built as a 28 pin .6" wide DIP module, just add header pins and you have a DIP plug in device. But any IO buffering required will have to be done on the board it mounts into.

Lefty
Title: Re: 32-bits is the new 8-bits
Post by: Boffin1 on Oct 19, 2012, 02:26 am
All my projects use embedded 328 chips, I will be lost without them, unless someone comes up with what you suggested on a carrier.

Incidentally, I have 2 arduino boards, and have had to change the worn out DIP sockets only twice on one, and once on the other. I often plug and unplug chips 20 times a day, and promise myself to try the ICSP when I get a chance !
Title: Re: 32-bits is the new 8-bits
Post by: Boffin1 on Oct 19, 2012, 02:29 am
Quote
Well the Teensy 3.0 is already half that requirement. It's built as a 28 pin .6" wide DIP module, just add header pins and you have a DIP plug in device. But any IO buffering required will have to be done on the board it mounts into


That sounds promising, I have no problem with buffering on the external pcb, its the programming that worries me....
Title: Re: 32-bits is the new 8-bits
Post by: graynomad on Oct 19, 2012, 02:42 am
Quote
Well the Teensy 3.0 is already half that requirement.

That's true.

I guess the problem with on-board buffering is controlling the IO features on a pin-by-pin basis. For example how do you have pin 1 as an input with pullup and pin 2 as an output. And that's not even thinking about the analog IO.

Quote
its the programming that worries me....

I haven't used any but AFAIK many of the current environments have that covered in an Arduino-like manner. So that shouldn't worry you too much.

_____
Rob
Title: Re: 32-bits is the new 8-bits
Post by: MichaelMeissner on Oct 19, 2012, 02:43 am

I am just getting to know 8 bit Arduino Rob,  don't move the goalposts unless it works with the only IDE I know a little of :-)

FWIW, the teensy 3.0 (Arm Cortex-M4) uses the existing Arduino IDE.  True, it just came out, and there still some missing functionality and teething problems, but the IDE is the 1.0.1 IDE.
Title: Re: 32-bits is the new 8-bits
Post by: Jack Christensen on Oct 19, 2012, 03:16 am

Agreed, one day you just won't be able to buy the simpler more robust chips ...


Possibly so, but I hope some subset of the more popular parts will live on as "legacy" devices. We can still get 555 timers, Z80s, 6800s, etc.

Quote
... you can no longer buy a simple car without any computer crap in it.


Hear hear! Glad I'm not the only one that feels that way. I think I'm pretty good with a lot of technology, and I will sure use it to advantage where possible, but doesn't it seem like we do a lot of things just because we can these days? Cars seem to be a prime example.
Title: Re: 32-bits is the new 8-bits
Post by: graynomad on Oct 19, 2012, 04:07 am
Quote
Z80s

Yes and all my old favourite IO chips are still available as well. You can even still get the Micro Professor dev kit. Unbelievable. I swear that one day I'll make a retro board with a Z80, even if there's a BGA packaged ARM under the 40-pin DIP that emulates the old processor :)

[rant]
We spend a lot of time in the outback and the horror stories I hear about vehicles that "fail to proceed" because of a stupid sensor failure or some such are just amazing.

For example, a mate of mine has a brand new MAN 4x4 truck, one day it refused to start because it thought the brake linings were worn. Some Ahole in Germany thinks "Well it's dangerous to drive with worn brakes so we won't let you". Tough luck if you're 500k from the nearest town and 1500k from a MAN dealer. (I should add that in this case he was in a major city, but that's not the point, he could have been anywhere)

Another example. A bloke up on Cape York had a failure in his Nissan 4x4. It does allow "limp home" mode at 20 or 30kph so he figured oh well I'll just have to drive the 800k back to town slowly and take a week or so to do it. Of course over that time you have to camp so that night he stops. Next morning no go, you only get one chance to limp home, once you turn the motor off that's it. Decided by some Japanese engineer with a Nissan dealer on every corner no doubt.

As I say to people I meet in the bush with modern vehicles, you can't fix a computer with a sapling and some fencing wire. I drove from near Darwin to south of Brisbane once (over 3000k) with no panels on the front of my car, a radiator from a totally different vehicle and a headlight from yet another vehicle all tied together with wire. (Why? I hit a bull at 80mph and totalled the front of the car, we had it fixed in 3 days on the side of the road and carried on)

My truck is a '71 model and my last 4x4 was a '84 model, there was maybe 10 wires between them :) I welded the chassis of the 4x4 once to get home and hot wired the LPG/petrol control on another occasion. I know people that have driven on three wheels using a tree as a skid for the fourth. You have to be able to do that sort of thing in the bush.

I now have a modern 4x4 and in many ways wish I'd never bought it. They are very reliable there's no doubt about that, but if it breaks in the bush I'll probably have to leave it there.

[/rant]

______
Rob
Title: Re: 32-bits is the new 8-bits
Post by: pico on Oct 19, 2012, 04:24 am

I've seen 32-bit processors for as little as $1.10 and $1.50 is common, whereas the Mega328 as used in the standard Arduinos is ~$3.


Chip pricing is quirky, to say the least. At the moment I can buy DIP Atmega328 for ~$3 in small qty, DIP Attiny85 for ~$2 in small qty, and DIP Atmega8 ~$1 in small qty.

Given that the Atmega8 beats the Attiny85 in just about everything (except perhaps compactness), I'm recently been moving my low end projects to this chip over the Attiny85.

Element14's prices as advertised usually aren't very competitive for small qty, but they certainly will negotiate aggresively on higher volume! I have had my eye on the dev board too, btw, but I'm getting a backlog of cool dev boards to play with as it it is!

Title: Re: 32-bits is the new 8-bits
Post by: pico on Oct 19, 2012, 04:33 am

I now have a modern 4x4 and in many ways wish I'd never bought it. They are very reliable there's no doubt about that, but if it breaks in the bush I'll probably have to leave it there.


Which makes me think: You've identified a real problem. Wherever there's a problem there's an opportunity...

It's a niche market, but perhpas you could think about simple, rugged, repairable/bypassable/accessible electronic modules to replace some of the "sensor rich" versions that infest modern vehicles. Buy a new Landcruiser, rip out all the fancy electronics, replace it with Rob's bush-bashing worthy gear, and away you go!

(Might void your warranty though. LOL!)
Title: Re: 32-bits is the new 8-bits
Post by: graynomad on Oct 19, 2012, 04:47 am
:)

I can see it now, the new "we don't need no stink'n sensors" ECU module, complete with N8FW (number 8 fencing wire) and STOS (small tree or sapling) interfaces.

I still can't figure out why I never made my fortune in electronics :(

And to think we're talking about drive by wire on another thread, God help us. You'll cross the border into another country and the on board GPS will flip the thing to left-hand drive (or vv).

______
Rob
Title: Re: 32-bits is the new 8-bits
Post by: Jack Christensen on Oct 19, 2012, 05:20 am
Rob, great examples there. Here are some that stick out in my mind.

Many years back, don't quote me, but I think I may have read it in some IEEE publication. Pre-production luxury car being shown off to the suits, and it won't start. Once the red-faced engineers got it back to the lab to diagnose, it was discovered that the high-end audio system was causing a storm on the bus and the start command couldn't get through.

First-hand from an engineer who had been to a shouting session on the problem. Motorized sunroof was having problems opening and closing. It would bind and stick. Turns out there was a motor on each side to move the rather large and heavy glass. Not sure of the exact details, but the bottom line was a failure to communicate perfectly over the bus between the two motors and they were therefore not keeping in sync and causing a bind.

This is when I began to suspect things had gone too far.

Lastly, we had a nice sedan back in the late-80s. The speedo looked like a normal analog type with a needle, i.e. connected to the trans via a mechanical cable. There was a recall that involved replacing the chip in the ECM (we never did experience whatever the problem was). The wife and I went to pick up the car after the fix, and she drives it back. Now, she is a very conservative driver, but on the expressway coming home, I could hardly keep up with her. Asked how fast she was going and she said 70mph, which was the speed limit. After a brief test, something was obviously wrong, so back to the dealer where they discovered the chip had been replaced with one for another model, and so the maths that drove the servo for the speedo needle were causing the indicator to be low.
Title: Re: 32-bits is the new 8-bits
Post by: Boffin1 on Oct 19, 2012, 07:44 am
I did a temp repair to an old automatic yank tank I borrowed when my leg was in plaster many years back, when the throttle cable broke on the freeway.

Almost fly by wire, but this was fly by fishing line ( thats all I could find in the car ) tied on to the carbs throttle, hooked round the wing mirror, back into the drivers window.

It worked and got me home, but try and picture the acceleration pulling away as the line stretched until the throttle moved !

You couldnt do that on a new BMW !
Title: Re: 32-bits is the new 8-bits
Post by: Jack Christensen on Oct 19, 2012, 02:18 pm

yank tank


??  American land-barge?  LOL! XD
Title: Re: 32-bits is the new 8-bits
Post by: graynomad on Oct 19, 2012, 04:21 pm
Note to self, take fishing line on next trip.

______
Rob
Title: Re: 32-bits is the new 8-bits
Post by: Boffin1 on Oct 19, 2012, 04:25 pm
A large ve-hicle from Detroit with small tailfins :-)
Title: Re: 32-bits is the new 8-bits
Post by: retrolefty on Oct 19, 2012, 04:29 pm

A large ve-hicle from Detroit with small tailfins :-)


Or maybe best called Detroit land sharks?

http://www.google.com/search?q=large+tail+fin+cars&hl=en&tbo=u&tbm=isch&source=univ&sa=X&ei=kGOBUPCUDITC9gS074CoBg&sqi=2&ved=0CEYQsAQ&biw=1024&bih=804

Lefty
Title: Re: 32-bits is the new 8-bits
Post by: Boffin1 on Oct 19, 2012, 06:10 pm
Thats it, I loved those cars, though I could never have afforded to drive far in one.

My mate and I thought of cutting off the top of a station wagon yanktank, welding the doors closed to restore some integral strength, make some drain holes in the floor, and a surf board rack / sunshade on top.

Those plans have been shelved for a while....  ( that was in 1980 when were a bit younger )
Title: Re: 32-bits is the new 8-bits
Post by: Constantin on Oct 25, 2012, 07:48 pm

...doesn't it seem like we do a lot of things just because we can these days? Cars seem to be a prime example.


Not sure I agree. Many of the important mileage and safety features these days in cars (traction control, direct fuel injection, hybrid tech, etc.) are only possible / beneficial through the use of very fast DSPs under the hood. I agree that there are other features in cars that have less to do with basic functionality and more to do with bling (watch movies on the dashboard?) but I have to say that given a choice between a car with traction control and one without, I'd pick the latter, every time. Saved my bacon several times, and CPUs make it possible.

I wouldn't be surprised if at some point we may see car-bus systems extend out to the periphery, i.e. turning light assemblies, etc. being powered by a common voltage bus but commanded via a CAN or similar RS485 communication system to save on wiring and weight.
Title: Re: 32-bits is the new 8-bits
Post by: graynomad on Oct 26, 2012, 11:27 am
I think you see this through different eyes according to your experiences.

In 40 years of driving I've only had 2 bad(ish) accidents, neither of which would have been prevented by current technology. OTOH I've fixed vehicles maybe a 1000 times in the bush, side of the road, wherever. Many of those times I doubt I could have fixed the car if it was a new one and if it was an electronics problem the score would be 0%.

That said, If I'd been saved from injury or worse by ABS or other technology just once I'm sure I'd be a real convert :) For example I don't live in the snow/ice so see little advantage in having traction control, it's one more thing to break, those who do live in such climates may have a different view about the feature.

Of all the electronics "stuff" in a car, how much is safety related? Does anyone know?

Quote
I wouldn't be surprised if at some point we may see car-bus systems extend out to the periphery, i.e. turning light assemblies, etc. being powered by a common voltage bus but commanded via a CAN or similar RS485 communication system to save on wiring and weight.

Another thing we can't fix :)

______
Rob
Title: Re: 32-bits is the new 8-bits
Post by: Constantin on Oct 26, 2012, 02:56 pm
Hi Rob,

I agree completely - experiences will shape desires in terms of features. Traction control with a rear wheel drive car in the NE of the USA is a huge plus. Even with winter tires, I could kick the rear out easily. That's not an accomplishment, just a reflection of the road conditions up here frequently being less than ideal. Similarly, my main battlecruiser has 4WD and electronics make that better too.

There are other features that fall into the 'nice to have' category, like Bluetooth integration for the phone so that you can call people if you're stuck in traffic. Not a huge benefit in the bush, but a frequent enough issue up here commuting through Boston and its suburbs.

Integrated navigation and traffic monitoring is a computationally-intensive application but a huge time saver, whether you're commuting or traveling long distances along potentially congested highways. 

Some people like to placate their kids with on-board videos, etc. All mine get is books-on-tape.

As I mentioned, getting good gas mileage is pretty much dependent on an array of sophisticated sensors, actuators, and so on. They do have the potential over time to make engines a whole lot less complicated, however. For example, I expect there will be a time when cam shafts and all the mechanicals associated with them will disappear, to be replaced by electronically-actuated valves instead. Analogous to the replacement of carburetors, I suppose.  Ditto for integration of starter / alternator into the engine block vs. add-on approach via belts today.

I see huge improvement potentials in engines that are currently not realized because the car industry is inherently afraid to make changes. Microprocessors would be a big part of that and they already help mechanics diagnose exactly what the issues are that they're going to be dealing with when they open the hood. Thus, for me, the issue is not one of micro vs. no micro, its whether politicians can force the car companies to open their kimono regarding proprietary protocols, error codes, and so on.

That's a much bigger issue up here right now, with car companies arguing that it's perfectly OK to charge $20k+ for a OEM diagnostics tool that no independent shop can justify while dealerships get them virtually free. Similarly, I would like to be able to have a choice re: what OS my car entertainment system is running, as well as where it gets its data from.
Title: Re: 32-bits is the new 8-bits
Post by: Jantje on Oct 26, 2012, 03:42 pm
Very interesting readings here :-)
@Rob
Here in Belgium there is no way to be more than 800Km away from your personal dealer.
In Belgium we have MAX(Border distance) < 300km.
In Belgium we have MAX(city distance) < 40km.
I really had to do the calculation to believe it would take a week to drive 800Km at 20Km/h.

:smiley-eek: What a difference  :smiley-eek:

Best regards
Jantje
Title: Re: 32-bits is the new 8-bits
Post by: graynomad on Oct 26, 2012, 05:11 pm
@Jantje
The bloke's car was limited to about 20kph in limp home mode, so yes it would take a week to get back to a large enough town (Cairns) to get the vehicle fixed. See this map to give you the context

(http://www.robgray.com/temp/Aus-europe.jpg)

The shorter black line is the trip in question, tip of Cape York to Cairns, roughly 800k.

The long line is the distance I drove after my bull incident mentioned in post #10. It's 3000k and in those days (mid 70s) a lot of it was gravel road and when there was bitumen it was rough as guts and single lane.

@Constantin
I got to thinking about things and realised that despite what I say we almost never fix anything these days, even in the old cars I rabbit on about. 99% of the time we replace things. I can no more carve a new crank shaft from a bent sapling than I can diagnose a CAN link with a piece of string.

100 or 200 years ago you did really fix things, in theory if an axle broke on your wagon you could chop down the nearest tree and make a new one. Look at how the sailors used to half rebuild a ship when they were stranded on some deserted coast.

We are already well past the point of being able to really fix things ourselves unless maybe you have your own machine shop. We can however diagnose problems, go get the parts and stick them in to "fix" the vehicle. But we didn't fix the part itself and normally have no chance of doing so.

So in that respect we are no worse off with modern technology as such. If we can diagnose that a black box ECU or even an ARM-based networked indicator light is busted we can get a new one and plug it in.

Which means we have to have the means to diagnose the problem and access to the parts to replace the faulty unit.

Quote
with car companies arguing that it's perfectly OK to charge $20k+ for a OEM diagnostics tool that no independent shop can justify while dealerships get them virtually free.

So that does seem to be a large part of the problem then, you need cheap diagnostic tools and access to parts. If either are locked up by the car manufacturers then you are stuffed.

So if/when you can buy a cheap diagnostic device and cheap replacement black boxes I'd say I would be happy to have the modern tech in a car. I would be no worse off with regard to replacing broken parts and in fact better off because they almost never need replacing in the first place.

Quote
like Bluetooth integration for the phone so that you can call people if you're stuck in traffic.

One man's nice to have is another man's total waste of time. It's really interesting to see the obvious differences in our lifestyles. I often turn my phone off to save the battery and realise a week later that to forgot to turn it back on :)

Mind you I seldom go for 10 minutes without checking my email, I'm pretty hooked on the internet and it kills me when I'm out of range.

I do have a new car these days but here's my last car, pretty much like yours I suspect

(http://www.robgray.com/photos/images/30442.jpg)

Petrol consumption was diabolical (I carried 8 jerry cans in the back) but I bet you can't carry your firewood on the bull bar like that :)

Damn that was a good car, I wish I never sold it and am seriously thinking of looking for another one.


______
Rob

Title: Re: 32-bits is the new 8-bits
Post by: Boffin1 on Oct 26, 2012, 05:38 pm
For driving around urban areas,  a modern hitech car that is under guarantee is fine.  

For those of us who drive hours in older cars between urban areas,  an easy fix car is much better.  Horses for courses.  We have the advantage of open sweeping roads to drive on :-)

What really bugs me though is that there seems so be a new car launch every week !  

And this in a world in recession !  ( and dont get me going about money spent on celphones and tablets etc ! )

Disposable capital in many families is spent mainly on a few gadgets that do not benifit their country ( apart from some local service providers )

There seem to be a few manufacturers sharing engines, but I think there should  a "standard" engine,  gearbox, and transmission on a subframe available, and let various companies tart it up with body shapes and gadgets to woo buyers.

OK I have put the soap box away now.

Title: Re: 32-bits is the new 8-bits
Post by: DuaneB on Oct 26, 2012, 06:36 pm
Graynomad,

Land Cruiser FJ 40 ?

Mine is a lot smaller and has been waiting for me to install a two speed gear box for almost as many years -

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-XEWDhTelluk/TxByajear2I/AAAAAAAAAKc/WpZGz7Y5Iy0/s1600/pb151510.jpg)

It would look nicer with some more sensible tyres I know.

Duane B

rcarduino.blogspot.com (http://rcarduino.blogspot.com)
Title: Re: 32-bits is the new 8-bits
Post by: Jantje on Oct 26, 2012, 07:44 pm
Graynomad
Thanks for sharing the image that compares europe to australia.
I live in the red spot next to France and it not spain. I think that proves my point :-)

Best regards
Jantje
Title: Re: 32-bits is the new 8-bits
Post by: Constantin on Oct 26, 2012, 10:42 pm

...I do have a new car these days but here's my last car, pretty much like yours I suspect

... Petrol consumption was diabolical (I carried 8 jerry cans in the back) but I bet you can't carry your firewood on the bull bar like that :) Damn that was a good car, I wish I never sold it and am seriously thinking of looking for another one.


And there is the difference. My heat source consists of dinosaur-era farts, while you're using renewables already. I get about 27-29 MPG @ 75MPH, which is pretty good. On the downside, the ground clearance is but 4.5", so its way too easy to either go kerplunk on something in the street, or to hit a door on a badly-installed kerb. But, lots of space inside, three kids across in the rear row, etc. so it's the perfect station wagon for me at this stage in my life. The convertible is loads of fun too but I may sell it because I get to drive it so rarely these days.

In Australia, I'd be operating differently too. Much more important to have all sorts of safety gear along for the ride that is not needed here. After all, our service stations / tow folk are usually less than 5 miles away, in the bush it could be 100+ miles.
Title: Re: 32-bits is the new 8-bits
Post by: graynomad on Oct 27, 2012, 01:44 am
Quote
I live in the red spot next to France and it not spain. I think that proves my point :-)

I thought I'd see what our largest station (farm/ranch) is and found this so couldn't resist posting it :)

Quote
Anna Creek Station is the world's largest pastoral lease in the world. Covering over 30,100 sq kms, 5.5 million acres, it runs up to 18,000 head of cattle, depending on rain conditions. Anna Creek is huge - bigger than Belgium, half the size of England, five times larger than its nearest United States competitor and is about 8,000 sq. kms larger than its nearest rival in the N.T. of Australia, Alexandria Station.


And there are just 18 people living there.

@Duane
I love the 40-series. Yes those tyres are a little extreme :) I've always preferred the standard narrow tyres (razor blades as we call them), they are easier to thread between sharp rocks, cheaper, less strain on the drive train and steel rims can be fixed in the bush, mags can't. Also when you let the air out they are (according to some tests) no worse than fat tyres in the sand.

That's one mean-looking rig. Is it street legal?

Quote
What really bugs me though is that there seems so be a new car launch every week !

Me too, that's one thing I like about the "commercial" versions of Landrover and Toyota. The 40-series looked the same for about 24 years, that was followed by the 7x-series which looks almost the same after 28 years and still going. They have made some changes with the last model or two, most notably coil springs on the front (good) and a V8 diesel (not so good apparently) but the design is still almost the same.

Whereas most other cars change everything 3 times a year just so they are different to the last model. What a crock.

Quote
while you're using renewables already.

I've been living on solar for 12 years and we really aren't part of the "consumer" society although I'm not short of my toys I guess, so I reckon my account in the carbon bank is in the black, or at least not as far in the red as most westerners.

Quote
ground clearance is but 4.5"

Ooo, that's a problem. How the heck do you work on anything? Do they even make jacks that low :) I love our motorhome, at some parts I can crawl under it on hands and knees without touching anything. OTOH when I have to use a spanner or something the blood runs from my arms after a few minutes because I'm holding them so high.

Quote
In Australia, I'd be operating differently too

Yeah you should have a vehicle that's appropriate for your environment and personal situation.

I'm heading off to eBay to look for a 40-series with a new motor.

______
Rob
Title: Re: 32-bits is the new 8-bits
Post by: GoForSmoke on Oct 27, 2012, 06:26 am
How about emergency transport? Throw a bush pig in the trunk along with a full jerry can and a backpack. But 800 km on a bush pig, you'd deserve some kind of medal!

Title: Re: 32-bits is the new 8-bits
Post by: graynomad on Oct 27, 2012, 06:53 am
You might deserve a medal, but what you'd actually get is a trip to the hospital to put your guts back into your intestinal cavity, and that's if you're lucky :)

______
Rob
Title: Re: 32-bits is the new 8-bits
Post by: DuaneB on Oct 27, 2012, 08:16 am
Quote
That's one mean-looking rig. Is it street legal?


I wondered if I would get away with that. Its an RC Truck, whats more surprising is that the bodyshell starts out as a clear plastic jelly mold -  with a bit of paint and a few stickers they can look pretty good.

Duane B

rcarduino.blogspot.com (http://rcarduino.blogspot.com)
Title: Re: 32-bits is the new 8-bits
Post by: graynomad on Oct 27, 2012, 08:40 am
He he, got me there :) I know you're into RC and I did think the windows were a little strange and there's no door furniture, but people customise vehicles in all sorts of ways so you never know.

However as a photographer I should have cottoned onto the shallow depth of field. That's a give away. But then it's a common technique these days to manipulate the plane of focus with a TS lens to create that affect and make street scenes and other large objects look like models.

So it's not street legal then?

______
Rob
Title: Re: 32-bits is the new 8-bits
Post by: westfw on Oct 27, 2012, 10:19 am
Quote
In Belgium we have MAX(Border distance) < 300km.

Heh.  That reminds me of one of my favorite insightful and in offensive jokes:
"The difference between the US and Europe is that in Europe, 100 miles [sic] is a long distance, and in the US 100 years is a long time."
Title: Re: 32-bits is the new 8-bits
Post by: DuaneB on Oct 27, 2012, 12:03 pm
Mine isn't a very good example but there is a very big scene of guys that build 'scale' RC Trucks where the focus is on realistic performance and appearance.

The chassis's are based on frame rails with center transfer cases, leaf springs, solid axles, three speed gearboxes etc etc. Lots of guys scratch build their chassis from brass, its all very impressive.

Example complete with scale rust -

(http://tracgear.com/product/rc4wd/truck/Fracture/g1/DSC_2656.jpg)

They are usually very heavy so look very realistic in action.

Duane B

Title: Re: 32-bits is the new 8-bits
Post by: Jantje on Oct 27, 2012, 01:03 pm

Quote
In Belgium we have MAX(Border distance) < 300km.

Heh.  That reminds me of one of my favorite insightful and in offensive jokes:
"The difference between the US and Europe is that in Europe, 100 miles [sic] is a long distance, and in the US 100 years is a long time."

I can fully agree on that.
Best regards
jantje
Title: Re: 32-bits is the new 8-bits
Post by: Boffin1 on Oct 27, 2012, 01:21 pm
Code: [Select]
I wondered if I would get away with that. Its an RC Truck, whats more surprising is that the bodyshell starts out as a clear plastic jelly mold -  with a bit of paint and a few stickers they can look pretty good.

I needed a second look, but the antenna with the yellow flag is a clue...

"The difference between the US and Europe is that in Europe, 100 miles is a long distance, and in the US 100 years is a long time."

excellent quote westfw , I cant find the originator ,  sounds a bit Churchillian :-)
Title: Re: 32-bits is the new 8-bits
Post by: MichaelMeissner on Oct 27, 2012, 04:03 pm

He he, got me there :) I know you're into RC and I did think the windows were a little strange and there's no door furniture, but people customise vehicles in all sorts of ways so you never know.

However as a photographer I should have cottoned onto the shallow depth of field. That's a give away. But then it's a common technique these days to manipulate the plane of focus with a TS lens to create that affect and make street scenes and other large objects look like models.


Several cameras now offer art filters that do the manipulation in the camera (Olympus calls it Diorama).  One of the TV shows I watch tends to use it on the video camera to show time passing (they speed up the video or make a video from time lapse shots), and I find it to be really annoying.
Title: Re: 32-bits is the new 8-bits
Post by: graynomad on Oct 27, 2012, 04:55 pm
Great quote, applies equally of you replace US with AUS I think.

Duane, I'll see your 4x4 model and raise you a 6x6

(http://www.robgray.com/graynomad/wothahellizat/wot1/photos/11032.jpg)

1:1 scale :)

What size is that, it looks pretty big.

Quote
the focus is on realistic performance and appearance.

That interests me, more so than the high-speed racing etc. Nice and slow so you can see the parts all working.

Quote
now offer art filters that do the manipulation in the camera

I'm not a fan of doing anything in camera, you can't change your mind later.

______
Rob
Title: Re: 32-bits is the new 8-bits
Post by: DuaneB on Oct 27, 2012, 06:11 pm
Quote
Duane, I'll see your 4x4 model and raise you a 6x6


I will raise you an 8x8 1:10 scale, not mine, but still -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3MGHRQDZHM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3MGHRQDZHM)

Duane B

Title: Re: 32-bits is the new 8-bits
Post by: GoForSmoke on Oct 27, 2012, 07:04 pm

Quote
In Belgium we have MAX(Border distance) < 300km.

Heh.  That reminds me of one of my favorite insightful and in offensive jokes:
"The difference between the US and Europe is that in Europe, 100 miles [sic] is a long distance, and in the US 100 years is a long time."



And 4 years ago is pre-history.

Title: Re: 32-bits is the new 8-bits
Post by: graynomad on Oct 28, 2012, 01:54 am
Quote
I will raise you an 8x8

Bugger, I can't find any 10x10 photos.

The 8x8 is fantastic, I could get into something like that. Did you see the dumptruck go belly up in the background :)

Quote
100 years is a long time.

50 years and it's heritage listed here. Hey, you work with what you got.

______
Rob
Title: Re: 32-bits is the new 8-bits
Post by: MichaelMeissner on Oct 29, 2012, 06:40 am

Quote
now offer art filters that do the manipulation in the camera

I'm not a fan of doing anything in camera, you can't change your mind later.

Well for still shots, the higher end cameras have the ability to shoot in RAW+JPG, and the RAW file is the image before the art filter processing.  My Olympus cameras even allow you to to go to a RAW file on the card, and select an art filter after the fact, and the camera will create a new image with the processing.  Doing art filters in the camera has one big advantage over doing it in post, in that you can see the effect as you are composing the image, and not have to wait until you are at the computer.  That being said, I tend to be old school and generally don't usually use art filters.