A project proposal of a "global nature"

Hi guys;

I don't how can I start this...here goes... The project that I am proposing is ---> Gravity Wave Detector

Yep... a bit strange...but ear me out here...I will make this project and use the Arduino to collect data and show them on a graph format. Here is the global nature of this project... Since the "reading" will be in my corner of the planet, I want if possible the other members to make this project, collect data and share the data. Different location on the planet will be very interesting. Ex: Australia, USA, England, Africa, Asia, South America.... make the detector, data collectors and share the data.... Hope you guys get my idea here.

The project will included : The "sensor", level & converter for the Arduino analog input, data storage using a SD Card and a way to
display the data on a graph.

Here the link for you guys to get started :
http://www.rexresearch.com/1hodorhys/remag86/remag86.htm
http://www.rexresearch.com/1hodoindx.htm
http://amasci.com/freenrg/grav3.html

After the testing and data sampling, the "data" has to be collected or sample every 1/4 of a second for better accurucy.

I will make my end here and hope you will ...anyway I know some of you will not like it and maybe "laught"" at me. Heh I find this subject very interresting. That will be a project for all of us to help each orthers.

Sincerely

techone

Anytime I see words like "Rhysmonic Cosmology" in the title of something, my BS detector breaks its needle.

Show me a peer-reviewed article by the same author, and I would be more willing to accept the idea; I know there are peer-reviewed research papers out there on methods of detecting "gravity waves". I'm not even saying that the information you posted is necessarily incorrect (I didn't read them) - it's just that woo-like words like "Rhysmonic Cosmology" tend not to lend credibility to a scientific theory.

I say you make such a singular detector using an Arduino, and demonstrate that it can detect such a "wave" (not sure how you would do that, though) - then maybe the community would be willing to build a global set of detectors after it is known that it isn't building another "overunity machine" or such, if you get my drift.

With that said - I do wonder how you can/would be able to detect a "gravity wave" - such a "wave" would have to come from a mass larger than any other nearby moving masses (you'd have to somehow filter this noise) - maybe if you could detect the passing of the moon, perhaps?

I think this just about sums up the tragic pseudo-science of this article:

While some of that charging could be attributed to a chemical reaction in the capacitor, I believe that much of it is caused by gravity-wave impulses bathing the capacitor at all times.

Good to know. I believe it is caused by bigfoot.

This guy is making ridiculous claims without a shred of proof. I second the call for peer reviewed material, or even just some evidence.

techone... are you Greg Hodowanec?

I'm quite sure there's going to be some interesting responses here, but I just have basically the same question as Cr0sh, could you point us to some outside material that hasn't been authored by Mr. Hodowanec?

What I see is an amplifier which will in effect amplify noise.. fair enough. I'm having problems with your contention that capacitance noise is caused by Gravitational Waves, when there are so many other very reasonable explanations that don't require modification to the foundations of modern physics.

That being said, it might indeed be interesting to see if distant detectors of this type would demonstrate any correlation of any type, and if so, what exactly is being "measured". In some ways this reminds me of "meters" that measure everything under the sun except what they purport... like the "Ghost EMF Field Detectors" of ghost hunters.

Can we see some peer-reviewed (not letters to magazines, etc) material regarding the Capacitor Noise as Gravitation Detector? I really do like the idea of "citizen scientists" deploying cheap sensor networks as a method of large-scale data collection... but WHAT is being measured, if anything at all, need to be established first. As far as I have been able to ascertain, the nature of capacitance charging as you suggest doesn't have a lot of support from mainstream physics.. and there's usually a good reason for that. Chemistry and Physics provide perfectly testable explanations for the charge you are seeing.. you've just chosen to call it a Gravity Wave Detector... but I could with the same validity claim it was measuring the Weight of the Phlogiston Cloud we are in, or the "Holiness Field" created by proximity to our Mutant Star Goat overlords.

It would be interesting to see large-scale "detection" being able to be weeded out of noise data-- but it would be much more likely that some type of electromagnetic radiation is responsible for the charge in capacitance, rather than essentially "creating" energy by virtue of flexing spacetime. Your supposed charging would be occuring within and between all materials, in equal measure, resulting in two unresolvable problems.. the first is that since everything would be affected equally, your capacitor no more than your left thumb, there's no difference to measure. There's nothing special about the matter in a capacitor, any field that can create a potential electron difference (even stray radio waves, the leads acting as an antenna) will charge the capacitor, and that's what's happening. Even if it did detect as you suggest, the OTHER random noise of a million billion stars, power lines, and lightning storms would be extremely difficult to filter out-- "local" events must be screened, and by "local", I mean the Milky Way; since this supposed infinite propagation takes place in such a short time, an earth-scale detector isn't big enough. Tell me, what's the wavelength of your wave? Is your capacitor a quarter wave or half wave antenna, receiving this signal? It's creating a electrical charge in the capacitor, so the overall signal received must be nonzero in nature, otherwise voltages cancel out. Second is that you suggest a continuous and varying energy input into the universe with no consequences in terms of the gravitational and energy constraints you refer to, adding infinite energy to all spacetime. Cosmic X-rays alone is a much more reasonable explanation. Though a large scale xray detector would be neat, it certainly couldn't be called a gravity detector just because we want to call it one..

I'm still stuck on a wave of energy propagating infinite distances in a finite time. EPR paradox comes to mind.. but collapse of probability into a finite set of states is one thing-- creation of electric potential is entirely another. I've read a bit of the writing, and it seems that the single most salient fact -the source of the charge- is based upon a passionate belief rather than testable and repeatable science. Even at the most basic, please explain how this Gravity Wave has infinite wavelength yet produces a finite scalar electrical field that the capacitor is being charged by. There has to be a potential difference at any distance, so the bottom line is that requires infinite energy.

I've no doubt the device kicks out all kinds of weird "signals", but simply put, even if it could detect as you suggest, there's been nothing provided to suggest that what's measured is Gravity Scalar fields and impulses, and not a million other forces and energies that abound in the universe. I'd be much more likely to believe a design that looks for Supernova based upon Xray and Gamma emissions, which could possibly actually be discernable from background via "ambient" noise elimination.. there's mechanisms by which cosmic rays might affect the circuit, a heck of a lot more possible than violation of half a dozen basic laws of physics.

While gravity waves are suspected no one has ever detected one yet. That includes all the worlds scientists. It is not as if they haven't been looking and with stuff infanatly more powerful than the arduino.

I'm not even sure it's been determined that gravity travels 'in waves', let alone that one could measure them if they existed. I think that so far, lack of a "grand unifying theory" has been waiting on a better understanding of gravity.

I know one thing, there is entirely too much pseudoscience in the universe. :wink:

Lefty

I agree with you, Lefty. The amount of pseudoscience floating around, and the number of people who believe it is really sad. Have you read Science Under Siege? Its a collection of essays by renowned scientists about the dangers of pseudoscience that I picked up for 50% off at the borders going out of business sale (also sad), and its a really good read.

Along with pseudoscience my even bigger concern with science these days is all the politicalization that science seems to willingly or unwillingly wrapped around these days. No matter where your opinion falls on the controversies of the day (global warming, immunization of children, cloning, modification of DNA, etc) science should not be either supporting or fighting with the politicians, it just makes for both bad science and bad government. I know funding is very important for progress, but I think science does itself a disservice trying to influence or be influenced by the political world.

And why in the hell did they name it Political Science, when it's anything but science? :wink:

Surf's up, dudes! :smiley:

Well now this theory could be handy, though. I can blame all of my circuits that don't work on gravity waves, sloshing all those electrons around in the capacitors. As my wife says, "A poor excuse is better than none." XD

Sorry guys, It was naive of me to post it in the first place.

@Cr0sh

Anytime I see words like "Rhysmonic Cosmology" in the title of something, my BS detector breaks its needle.

Sorry Cr0sh.

@focalist

I am not him, OK

I am open mind type of guy, I will build the "sensor", test to see what happen, use the Arduino for data logging, and try to "plot" a graph. I am simply curious.

Anyway, I also lean that "gravitional wave detector" are being constructed using lasers, and they are VERY EXPENSIVE project ( think millions here ). So when a gov/private institute spend that kind of cash ...well something is up there...And what if those "waves" affect the planet ?

Here a few link :

[url=http://www.ask.com/wiki/Gravitational_wave_detector/
http://www.ask.com/wiki/Gravitational_wave]http://www.ask.com/wiki/Gravitational_wave_detector/
http://www.ask.com/wiki/Gravitational_wave
http://discovermagazine.com/2010/nov/01-tools-trade-gravity-wave-detector-bigger-badder-ligo

So when a gov/private institute spend that kind of cash ...well something is up there.

Not sure if you mean there is something to find or there is something wrong that phrase can be read both ways to me.
It is just that finding a gravity wave validates all sorts of other stuff. So that is why they are looking.

From what read of those original links you do not have to have detectors all over the world, just have two side by side and if the one over f noise is the same and in synchronisim, in both of them you have an effect worth further investigation. However, if the noise is not the same in both detectors then you shoot the theory down in flames.

It's just that the claims being made regarding any detected "signal" are pretty out there. Let's say these detectors actually detect a correlatable event across multiple detectors. We still have no idea what's been sensed, to make a definitive claim that it's due to one cause or another, any cause or another, is of course a self-reinforcing hypothesis. Even if we could for example correlate a spike with a supernova, we probably have just created nothing more than a very poor radio telescope, not a gravity wave detector. In fact, as your gravity waves propagate infinite distance in 10E-44 seconds (infinite travel in finite time) in most cases the "detected" supernova will be undetectable by any other (read electromagnetic.. light, xrays, gamma, what have you) means for many times a human lifetime by virtue of that very speed limit-- light. You can explain away negatives by saying "well the light won't get here for 200 years". Cute- but bad science.

I'd be interested to see the data produced by these efforts, but without some kind of actual science behind the theories, it's impossible to draw any reasonable conclusions from the data. If anything at all were "detected", all the author has to do is claim it's because of his gravity waves- no proof is needed or offered for this supposed association. Cute theories, but building Noise Amplifiers is extremely unlikely to detect fluctuations of spacetime density.

Please don't misread me.. I just see some bad science here, and though I don't think the author is actually out to mislead anyone, I also think that a reasonable application of Occam's Razor is in order.. the simplest and most reasonable explanation (standard electromagnetic noise from myriad sources OTHER than gravitational waves) is most often the right one.

I have no doubt it will produce some wiggly lines that represent a varying charge. It's just that the charge isn't being caused by some grand scale spacetime fluctuation, as the author suggests.. but by all means, I'd be interested to see WHAT if anything the circuit could ACTUALLY detect...

Man, sorry for the crazy idea... I do agree it sound "weird" and "far fetch" but you know I am curious, and by building it, it will pratice my electronics skills, my programing skills and construction skills, so I am not loosing after all. I will be fruitless ( has for the device ) and I will gain some learning experience with this project, but heh what the heck !!

Techone:
Man, sorry for the crazy idea... I do agree it sound "weird" and "far fetch" but you know I am curious, and by building it, it will pratice my electronics skills, my programing skills and construction skills, so I am not loosing after all. I will be fruitless ( has for the device ) and I will gain some learning experience with this project, but heh what the heck !!

Well - as long as you go into with the idea that if you don't get results after spending "N dollars" you'll retire the project and pursue something else, then all you might be wasting is some time, and you might have some fun and learn some things along the way. Approach it scientifically, and don't let things fool you; many has been the individual who pursued one of these kinds of projects (most of them involving "overunity" - which is just a fancy word for "perpetual motion"), only to put their life savings and then some into the pursuit of it because they were chasing a "blip" or something that gave them the idea that "just a bit more, and I'll have it". Some lost their families, and I wouldn't doubt that there have been one or two suicides (though I can't say I've read anything like this - but it seems possible).

Good luck - who knows, you may win a Nobel Prize for your work...? :wink:

Techone:
Man, sorry for the crazy idea... I do agree it sound "weird" and "far fetch" but you know I am curious, and by building it, it will pratice my electronics skills, my programing skills and construction skills, so I am not loosing after all. I will be fruitless ( has for the device ) and I will gain some learning experience with this project, but heh what the heck !!

No worries, glad you're a good sport about it! :smiley:

many has been the individual who pursued one of these kinds of projects (most of them involving "overunity" - which is just a fancy word for "perpetual motion"

About that statement crOsh, I do agree some projects ( like those ) are not worth the time and money, BUT when the price of fuel ( 1.30 / l ) and a high electric bill ( 100 usage + 100 Conection FEE ) <--- Yeh !!! ( in Canadian $$$ ) plus in the winter you have a HUGH heating bill ( oil usage - 300 to 600 liters @ 1.20 to 1.40 ) or hugh electric bill, it is expensive energy usage. So In those conditions, I think it is worth to investigated and experiments on system so call "overunity". That is an incentive worth time and money. Energy usage is NOT going to be cheaper, BUT going up , to be EXPENSIVE !!!

Techone:
About that statement crOsh, I do agree some projects ( like those ) are not worth the time and money, BUT when the price of fuel ( 1.30 / l ) and a high electric bill ( 100 usage + 100 Conection FEE ) <--- Yeh !!! ( in Canadian $$$ ) plus in the winter you have a HUGH heating bill ( oil usage - 300 to 600 liters @ 1.20 to 1.40 ) or hugh electric bill, it is expensive energy usage. So In those conditions, I think it is worth to investigated and experiments on system so call "overunity". That is an incentive worth time and money. Energy usage is NOT going to be cheaper, BUT going up , to be EXPENSIVE !!!

The thing is to know when to stop digging. Unfortunately, some individuals spend their life's savings on chasing a figment they saw in measurement, not understanding that their methods of measurement (and calculation - and possibly even understanding what they were measuring) were the issue - showing something that really wasn't there. They then may become "true believers" - and will spend every last dime (and more) chasing something that doesn't exist. At a certain point, they invest so much of themselves and their money into the effort, that to stop and admit a mistake or defeat is unthinkable; at that point, it has become a religion of sorts, and no amount of persuasion otherwise (short of homelessness - and sometimes, not even then) will make them stop their pursuit.

If I had $10,000.00 USD to spend on something to reduce my energy bill - would it be better to spend that money on more insulation, solar panels, etc (up to and including moving, I suppose) - or would it be better to spend it on the pursuit of something that argues it's possible to violate the laws of thermodynamics?

Now - it's one thing to spend, say, $100.00 USD on an "overunity" experiment - perhaps a bit foolish, but not a budget buster. However, should you sink $100.00 every paycheck for the next four years (ie, approximately $10,000.00 USD) on such an experiment - especially when, if you are really pursuing it honestly (that is, not getting all your information solely from JLN Labs or KeelyNet) - you are reading that such devices aren't possible, due to "x, y, and z" reasons...? Perhaps it would've been better to sink that money into a CD or IRA, or some other financial vehicle, where at the end of 4-5 years you'd have something more to show for it than a workbench of dead-ends (and from which you could apply the savings to an actual energy reduction plan for the house - whatever it might be)...?

/somehow, I don't think I'm going to be changing many minds on this subject...

@cr0sh

I do agree. ----> "Don't be obsessed with it". You are right. You don't want to be obsessed to the point that you lose everything.

Just say you had infinite funds and could use one of the techniques currently being employed by real scientists..... your Arduino only does 10bit ADC. So your readings will be between 0 - 1023. Do you really believe this is sort of resolution is suffient to detect something that will be vanishingly small?

I know that this isn't something that is really allowed to be said in the modern world but.... your ideas are plain wrong, you don't understand even basics of gravitational waves and by being involving yourself with such rubbish you place yourself in the same category as faith healers and crystal hawkers. I'm sorry if this offends you but you'd really be better off using your time and skills to produce something that you can share with your friends and family, makes your life easier or just plain looks cool.