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Community => Bar Sport => Topic started by: graynomad on Nov 11, 2012, 10:24 am

Title: What's with the response to Sandy's victims ?
Post by: graynomad on Nov 11, 2012, 10:24 am
Warning, rant follows.

I just watched the news to see yet another story about people that still have no government support after hurricane Sandy. We see volunteers handing out a blanket and a can of beans to some poor old lady living in a 7th floor apartment somewhere where there's still no power and it's snowing outside.

People are queuing for hours to get a gallon of petrol, and a disabled woman's carer can't get to her to help because she can't fill her car.

WTF?

This is a country that spends bazillions a year on military aircraft tyres for chrissake. Why isn't the national guard and the Army all over these places like a rash with generators, fuel tankers, mess facilities with free hot meals, field hospitals, whatever is needed.

And then we hear that one of the parties in the recent election was given 8 billion dollars in donations. 8 billion, that's f*cking obscene. Presumably the other half had access to similar resources.

And to top is off I see that they have in fact managed to get a generator working...to illuminate the bloody statue of Liberty. What? Who gives a toss if you can see a damn statue?

OK maybe we're getting the wrong end of the stick over here in Aus, after all who trusts the TV right? Anyone on the ground have better information?

______
Rob

Title: Re: What's with the response to Sandy's victims ?
Post by: 3dprinter on Nov 11, 2012, 01:44 pm
It's a bit better than the response after Katrina (hurricane in Lousiana) - where they ran out of ammunition in the neighbouring states as folks armed up for the incomming invasion of refugees <missing a bittersweet smiley here>.
Title: Re: What's with the response to Sandy's victims ?
Post by: wizdum on Nov 12, 2012, 06:52 am
Chalk it up to a lack of preparation and planning. Theres plenty of fuel and supplies in the area, but people are hoarding them because they are scared. We don't need to give them more stuff, we need to force the people who have enough to stop taking more. There were lines at the gas pumps the day after the storm, you can't tell me those people ran out of fuel in 6 hours.

Also, this is what you get when you abolish local disaster relief centers and replace them with a slow moving federal organization. I expect sandbags to start arriving there by May. The local power companies, on the other hand, have been working frakking miracles. We should probably just give them the supplies, since they seem to have this logistics thing worked out.

http://google.org/crisismap/2012-sandy
Title: Re: What's with the response to Sandy's victims ?
Post by: westfw on Nov 12, 2012, 07:32 am
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one of the parties in the recent election was given 8 billion dollars in donations.

I hadn't heard that number, and it's certainly absurd in its way, but that number would be spread across a presidential candidate (more, if you're counting contributions to primary candidates), 13 governors, 33 senators, and all 435 representatives...

Also beware the "large number effect."  8billion is about 1/3 of the tax revenue from selling alcoholic beverages in a year (in the US), for instance.  And video games are about $1B/month...
Title: Re: What's with the response to Sandy's victims ?
Post by: Chagrin on Nov 12, 2012, 08:45 am
That's $8 billion (which I assume is the value in Australian dollars) for all of the election races. Still way too much though -- couldn't watch a single Youtube video without some damn election commercial.

http://www.opensecrets.org/news/2012/10/2012-election-spending-will-reach-6.html

The "petrol" supplies are being hampered by so much of the fuel delivery infrastructure now being dedicated to providing supplies to the bazillions of generators that are in use. I'd also assume that quite a few service stations were knocked out of service; that's going to put more pressure on those that remain running.

In some situations there are strong labor unions preventing additional help from coming in (New York is very "intense" when it comes to labor unions). Yeah, that sucks.

As for the little old lady being given a blanket and can of beans... you gotta wonder about a person as unprepared as that. That's just not typical. Gas hoarding is not typical but yeah, it happens (http://www.ctpost.com/news/article/Cops-New-York-man-filled-buckets-with-gas-in-4008927.php).
Title: Re: What's with the response to Sandy's victims ?
Post by: graynomad on Nov 12, 2012, 09:17 am
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but people are hoarding them because they are scared.

I understand that, heck we have a run on supplies here every long weekend, you'd think the shops were never going to open again.

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I expect sandbags to start arriving there by May.

:)

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And video games are about $1B/month

$8B is not so much in that light eh?

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which I assume is the value in Australian dollars

All the same these days, give or take a cent or two.

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there are strong labor unions preventing additional help from coming in

When my dad came back from Africa in WW2 the troop ships anchored off Perth. These guys hadn't eaten a decent meal in a couple of years and the unions refused to bring supplies out to the ships until they got a pay rise. Pissing off 1000s of blokes armed to the teeth that had just spent years killing people was not such a great idea as it turned out, as my dad told the story the union wharfies worked at gun point with no pay rise :)

Unions had their uses and their day and without them most of us would still be working in really bad conditions. However that day has largely passed as far I'm concerned.

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you gotta wonder about a person as unprepared as that.

We live off the grid in almost every sense of the phrase, you could wipe out all the towns on our eastern seaboard and except for the fact that I couldn't get onto the Arduino forum I wouldn't notice until we drove into town 1-2 months later to get food :)

However I guess some people live from hand to mouth, especially in poorer areas.

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Gas hoarding is not typical but yeah, it happens.

You gotta love that, 30 buckets of petrol in a van. There's a guy cruising for a Darwin award.


______
Rob
Title: Re: What's with the response to Sandy's victims ?
Post by: Ran Talbott on Nov 12, 2012, 09:25 am

WTF?

It's a huge disaster, affecting, to some extent, 17 (iirc) states, with a population larger than all of Australia.  Many of those states are coastal, so the the usual approach of bringing in aid and supplies from neighboring states doesn't work so well: what adjoining states there are may well be just as hard-hit.

Many of the victims live in high-density urban areas, with a lot of just-in-time supply chains (even down to the household level: many NYC residents are accustomed to shopping for groceries multiple times per week) and not a lot of excess capacity. When a large percentage of the gas stations were knocked out by flooding and/or power loss, the remaining stations were overtaxed.

Quite a bit of fundamental infrastructure was badly damaged.  It's not just a matter or restringing a few downed power lines: there were facilities like entire substations destroyed, and sometimes roads that would ordinarily be used to rush in repair parts were blocked in multiple places.

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Who gives a toss if you can see a damn statue?


From what I've read about the NYC mayor's style, it was probably done for psychological effect (like fixing broken windows in abandoned buildings, which seems to lower the overall crime and vandalism rates). For some people, seeing the familiar nighttime landmark again induces hope. For others, it probably induces anger. Either way, it motivates them.

That $8B figure is definitely wrong: total spending by everyone (candidates, parties, and outside groups like the infamous superPACs) on all 550 or so federal races was about half that.  Still arguably obscene, but nowhere near as bad as you thought.
Title: Re: What's with the response to Sandy's victims ?
Post by: Coding Badly on Nov 12, 2012, 10:32 am
It's a bit better than the response after Katrina (hurricane in Lousiana) - where they ran out of ammunition in the neighbouring states as folks armed up for the incomming invasion of refugees <missing a bittersweet smiley here>.


Some comments from someone living in a neighboring state...

• No matter what you read, we did not "run out of ammunition" from "arming up".  Quite the opposite.  The state of Texas welcomed approximately 1/4 of the Katrina refugees.  37% of those folks chose to make Texas their new home.

• Criminals amongst refugees is a valid concern.  For example, providing refuge for Katrina victims resulted in a very significant increase in murders (and other violent crimes) in Houston.

Title: Re: What's with the response to Sandy's victims ?
Post by: kf2qd on Nov 12, 2012, 06:24 pm
Some of the problem is that they are so used to having everything working and so little used to any inconvenience that when something like this happens they have no clue what to do. And they expect someone else to do it for them. People that had as the most important part of their life getting their cell phone charged and their electronic devices on line. They can't get to work because the roads are still blocked, but they can fight to get in line for gasoline and have no place to go. And tehy expect that someone else will have the same expectations for their personal comfort that they have. The power company is going to go to those places wher they can get the biggest results first and then to those places with smaller returns for the effort. Having been through a couple ice storms and a few blizzards (I grew up in western NY and moved to south Texas just in time to enjoy hurricane Dolly) it is my opinion that most of what we see is folks having to confront the reality that they really have very little control over their lives or environment. Really is shocking to have to admit our own insignificance when the things over which we have no control come in and smash everything we have placed out trust in. What happens when I am confronted by my powerlessness?  I can either scream and yell and whine for someone to rescue me, or I can sit back, take stock and readjust my thoughts and ideas to the reality that does exist, rather than the reality I imagine. The fights over gasoline were not because of a need for gasoline, but because they could not handle the idea of their own insignificance. That, and the very fact that the thought of just cillin for a few days drives them screaming bonkers.
Title: Re: What's with the response to Sandy's victims ?
Post by: graynomad on Nov 12, 2012, 06:38 pm
Some good points there I think.

I live on solar and I think that empowers me (sorry :)) because I'm not dependant on any outside people.

There is a down side of course, that being that I can't depend on any outside people. If something breaks it's me that has to fix it.

Same goes with my plumbing, roofing, hydraulics, air systems, truck tyres, LPG, you name it.

Overall I like it that way, but there are times when I'd rather just pick up the phone, like now, I have a leaking pressure pump :(

______
Rob
Title: Re: What's with the response to Sandy's victims ?
Post by: retrolefty on Nov 12, 2012, 06:41 pm
I live in California, one of the most earthquake active areas of the world. Most people living here know that large damaging earthquakes could happen at any time, but few are really prepared both practically and  psychophysically if such a huge event actually happens. Plus for a earthquake there is no advance warning of when where and how large. We are told that each household should be prepared to be able to wait out rescue and help for at least 3 days, but few have probably really taken any real steps to reach that goal.

Civilized behaviour, rule of law, and such rest on a very fragile foundation if nature decides to get dramatic as she can at any time and any place. I am not a 'preper' by nature so I just do the minimum I think I need to do and hope to be able to ride out any major event, but then again I'm pretty OK with a fatalistic outlook on life and don't try to spend too much time worrying about things I can't really control. And I don't have any large expectations on governments ability to respond effectively in such situations. At my age I just don't put a lot of thought in how to survive all possible disasters, perhaps when I was younger raising children I was more concerned?
Lefty
Title: Re: What's with the response to Sandy's victims ?
Post by: 3dprinter on Nov 12, 2012, 06:43 pm

The state of Texas welcomed approximately 1/4 of the Katrina refugees.  37% of those folks chose to make Texas their new home.

Nice to hear a more balanced view. Problem with news from afar - only the sensational part gets through.


Criminals amongst refugees is a valid concern.  For example, providing refuge for Katrina victims resulted in a very significant increase in murders (and other violent crimes) in Houston.
Hmmm... was that infighting amongst the new residents?

Anyhow - back to the OT. There is a difference between the "general populace's" reaction and the offical goverment/state actions. I think Graynomad mostly thought of the latter. My comment was (kinda regret it) towards the former.
Title: Re: What's with the response to Sandy's victims ?
Post by: Coding Badly on Nov 12, 2012, 09:14 pm
Problem with news from afar - only the sensational part gets through.


Also a problem with news from anear.

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Hmmm... was that infighting amongst the new residents?


No.  The murder rate increased for several years following the influx of refugees.  My understanding is that it took a few years for Houston to "get back to even" after the huge increase in population; meaning there was a lack of things like probation officers to keep ex-cons on the straight-and-narrow.


For those living outside the U.S., bear in mind that our government is layered and delineated (we even fought a nasty war to determine where the delineation falls).  Typically, the Federal Government can only act by permission from the state.  In other words, the state of New Jersey must first (and formally) request assistance before any federal employees can provide assistance.  The burden falls first to the governors.  If the "government" is sluggish to respond it could be because the state government is sluggish.

Also bear in mind that electricity is provided by private companies.  If the electricity has not been restored, in the short term, the government (federal or state) can do very little but complain publicly (embarrass company officials).
Title: Re: What's with the response to Sandy's victims ?
Post by: wizdum on Nov 13, 2012, 07:07 am

Some good points there I think.

I live on solar and I think that empowers me (sorry :)) because I'm not dependant on any outside people.

There is a down side of course, that being that I can't depend on any outside people. If something breaks it's me that has to fix it.

Same goes with my plumbing, roofing, hydraulics, air systems, truck tyres, LPG, you name it.

Overall I like it that way, but there are times when I'd rather just pick up the phone, like now, I have a leaking pressure pump :(

______
Rob


So wishing I could just call someone right now. Truck is busted, furnace is busted, septic is backed up into the sinks, and a boatload of college work to do. We're not complety self sufficient (still require sporadic heating oil and propane deliveries), but at least we have backup systems just in case. When the ice storm of '98 hit us, we just sat in our house for a week until the roads were cleared and the power restored. Rigged the furnace, sump pumps, and hot water heater to run off our generator, and played some games on my Playstation 1. We didn't rush out the night before to try to buy up supplies, and we aren't even "preppers". It amazes me how unprepared some people are. Their priorities are also questionable. I tried explaining how to make a simple DIY "portable" power pack (using the alternator in a car to charge the batteries, and give them a few hours of light/radio/heat inside their house) to some of them, and got b*tched at because it was too heavy for them to carry in their pockets. They opted to have friends buy iPhone chargers on Amazon and mail them to their house (those should be arriving in a few weeks).
Title: Re: What's with the response to Sandy's victims ?
Post by: focalist on Nov 13, 2012, 05:08 pm
Having grown up in rural Wisconsin, I was used to power outages and being cut off- on a regular basis.  I remember the summer of 1976, when a cluster of downbursts and tornadoes hit the town- we were without power for nearly three weeks.  I also remember the winter of 1984, when our power was out for two weeks and the temperatures were as low as ten below zero.

I now live in the suburbs of Boston, a very different environment.  In 2008 a severe ice storm crippled much of new england, we were without power for about a week.. and it was far more difficult to handle than living rurally.  First was the fact that although I have a fireplace (and dry wood, usually around a cord at any time), most of my neighbors don't.  Within hours of power failing, we had neighbors and two friends sleeping on our living room floor for a week.  Stores that didn't have power simply didn't open, and gas stations generally didn't have power for the pumps- therefore no gas.  Add to that the simple fact that urban folks just don't have the resources in many cases- think about apartment buildings.  It's pretty much a reality that anything over five stories will be uninhabitable simply because five stories of stairs is what most people are going to manage.  They are city folk, don't camp- so they don't have a tent, and even if they did, there is only so much flat, dry, open ground.

Most of it is inexperience on the part of the populace, and also the sheer scale.  Finding alternate living space for a thousand people is a herculean effort-  but finding even basics for a million is nigh on impossible.

New York and New Orleans (maybe sticking with the old ones would be a good idea?) are perfect examples of the fact that today's urban populace simply could not live "in the wild".  Personally, I am with WHO on keeping an eye on hospitals for water-borne illnesses at this point.  Cholera in Queens.  A single outbreak could be horrific.
Title: Re: What's with the response to Sandy's victims ?
Post by: graynomad on Nov 13, 2012, 05:46 pm
In the 70s we had a truck blockade of Sydney (drivers wanted better conditions or something), within days there was panic.

We're not as far removed from total chaos as most people would like to think.

You guys get real life-threatening cold that compounds things. We never really get so cold that a good jacket can't handle it, one reason I like living up north.

_____
Rob
Title: Re: What's with the response to Sandy's victims ?
Post by: wizdum on Nov 13, 2012, 06:29 pm


You guys get real life-threatening cold that compounds things. We never really get so cold that a good jacket can't handle it, one reason I like living up north.

_____
Rob


I'm disappointed in myself. It took my mind a whole 5 minutes to figure out how you could get warmer by going north.
Title: Re: What's with the response to Sandy's victims ?
Post by: retrolefty on Nov 13, 2012, 06:44 pm



You guys get real life-threatening cold that compounds things. We never really get so cold that a good jacket can't handle it, one reason I like living up north.

_____
Rob


I'm disappointed in myself. It took my mind a whole 5 minutes to figure out how you could get warmer by going north.


Yea, and their toilet water when flushed spin backwards so we have to give them a lot of some leeway in their comments.  ;)
At least cold is cold and hot is hot so we can bank on that I guess.

Lefty 
Title: Re: What's with the response to Sandy's victims ?
Post by: graynomad on Nov 14, 2012, 01:46 am
Hey, I can't help it if you blokes are upside down.

______
Rob
Title: Re: What's with the response to Sandy's victims ?
Post by: cyberteque on Nov 14, 2012, 04:57 am
I'd rather have killer storms than killer bushfires...

I'm down in the city and I hate it, but I still go into panic mode for a second when I get a wiff of smoke.
Title: Re: What's with the response to Sandy's victims ?
Post by: graynomad on Nov 14, 2012, 05:25 am
Funny you should mention that, I can't see the hills at the moment for smoke. I hope it's just someone burning off.

______
Rob
Title: Re: What's with the response to Sandy's victims ?
Post by: AWOL on Nov 14, 2012, 12:40 pm
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nr Bundaberg

There's a place called Bundaberg?
Wow! - that's like finding there's a place called "Jack Daniels" or "Famous Grouse"!
Title: Re: What's with the response to Sandy's victims ?
Post by: graynomad on Nov 14, 2012, 05:44 pm
Just where do you think the rum is made :)

No good to me though, I can't stand the stuff.

______
Rob
Title: Re: What's with the response to Sandy's victims ?
Post by: GoForSmoke on Nov 15, 2012, 02:18 am
Some day they totally privatize emergency services here. Then the people who are paid up get help until the profit margin drops and the service declares bankruptcy, leaving the government/taxpayers to pick up the tab as usual. Those who aren't paid up will be known as 'Cranicks' and be mocked by talk radio conservatives.
But that won't be happening soon.  :smiley-mr-green: 

Grey Nomad, what do you think of methane digesters? Any organic waste like kitchen scraps or vegetation off the roadside can in time make fuel, and the 'waste' liquid is good fertilizer. Unlike an aquaponics setup you can probably drive around with a decent size digester on your truck.

Title: Re: What's with the response to Sandy's victims ?
Post by: graynomad on Nov 15, 2012, 03:45 am
I don't really know anything about them. Many (some?) of our rubbish tips here have methane reclamation. I'm all for stuff that will make us more independent, I was going to beta test a grey water recycling system a few years ago, but they couldn't get it small enough. 

As for Armageddon, I already have the Mad Max vehicle and 6 months supply of home brew ingredients, bring it on.

______
Rob
Title: Re: What's with the response to Sandy's victims ?
Post by: GoForSmoke on Nov 15, 2012, 05:02 am
Check Youtube, search on methane digester.

Like this on, I link because his parting words on the science are worth a lot.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AZv6MjZylo&feature=related

One thing I don't see is anyone using weather balloons to store methane or catch pressure release.
Title: Re: What's with the response to Sandy's victims ?
Post by: graynomad on Nov 15, 2012, 04:45 pm
That looks interesting, we certainly have a lot of cow crap around here to get it started. Maybe when/if I settle down.

______
Rob
Title: Re: What's with the response to Sandy's victims ?
Post by: dhenry on Nov 20, 2012, 05:30 pm
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Why isn't the national guard and the Army all over these places like a rash with generators, fuel tankers, mess facilities with free hot meals, field hospitals, whatever is needed.


It is a question of what you think the role of the government should be.

There is a case to be made that people will remain stupid if stupidity is rewarded.

Many times, the best help you can give people is not to help them.
Title: Re: What's with the response to Sandy's victims ?
Post by: GoForSmoke on Nov 20, 2012, 06:55 pm
We already see the results when GREED is rewarded.


Title: Re: What's with the response to Sandy's victims ?
Post by: dhenry on Nov 20, 2012, 07:53 pm
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We already see the results when GREED is rewarded.


Yes, just look at all those people capitalism / greed has lifted out of poverty.
Title: Re: What's with the response to Sandy's victims ?
Post by: retrolefty on Nov 20, 2012, 08:56 pm
Oh good, a class warfare food fight right here on the Arduino forum.  :smiley-roll:

Lefty
Title: Re: What's with the response to Sandy's victims ?
Post by: GoForSmoke on Nov 21, 2012, 12:46 am
The results I'm talking about aren't class warfare but runaway pollution and catastrophic global warming.

But storms like Sandy are -really- God's plan for the lazy-azz poor because science is just opinion.



Title: Re: What's with the response to Sandy's victims ?
Post by: graynomad on Nov 21, 2012, 01:10 am
It's natural (and right I think) for people to want to better themselves and their situation. It turns into greed when said people have more than they can ever use and yet want even more.

Anyone read the Mexican fisherman story? It's a classic.

______
Rob
Title: Re: What's with the response to Sandy's victims ?
Post by: dhenry on Nov 21, 2012, 02:29 am
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It turns into greed


Without greed, 99.9% of what we rely on daily wouldn't have been available to you and me.
Title: Re: What's with the response to Sandy's victims ?
Post by: wizdum on Nov 21, 2012, 02:57 am

It's natural (and right I think) for people to want to better themselves and their situation. It turns into greed when said people have more than they can ever use and yet want even more.

Anyone read the Mexican fisherman story? It's a classic.

______
Rob


Very NSFW comedian, Lewis Black, on Greed:
http://youtu.be/rxhyiZk4oaA?t=3m36s

"Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Take his fish away and tell him he's lucky just to be alive, and he'll figure out how to catch another one for you to take tomorrow."
Title: Re: What's with the response to Sandy's victims ?
Post by: graynomad on Nov 21, 2012, 03:04 am
Ah yes but don't confuse wealth creation with greed.

We do need people with the drive to create large companies that in turn produce goods and livelihoods for the vast majority that don't have the vision or the drive and just want a job.

But the wealth created should be distributed more equitably. Yes as the prime mover you should get paid a lot more than the janitor, but at present you have people spending more on a hotel room for the night than others earn in a year. Not that there's anything new in this, it's been the case ever since there was "stuff" to buy.

There are a few that don't follow the greed path, billionaires that still drive their old Chevy and give a large part of their wealth to various causes.

I just watched a documentary on some bloke (I think he is the richest person in China), he still eats with the staff in the lunch room and gives most of his money away.

He has created a huge amount of wealth, given a good livelihood to 1000s of people (presumably or they wouldn't eat with him, either that or they are scared of being fired :)) and not an ounce of greed in sight (as far as one can tell from a documentary anyway).

So I would argue that greed, while as natural to humans as breathing, is wrong and not necessary.

Wanting to better yourself is good, but as I said before once you have more than you need it becomes greed. This is largely semantics though as some people "need" more than others, for example I "need" an Arduino Due while others need health care or a good meal.

______
Rob
Title: Re: What's with the response to Sandy's victims ?
Post by: dhenry on Nov 21, 2012, 03:09 am
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Lewis Black, on Greed:


That typifies a large portion of our society: greed is good as long as you spend it in liberal-approving ways, like hiring an attractive young girl as your ball-washer, or spending it creatively (as defined by Lewis Black. Greed is bad if you didn't do as Lewis Black had deemed good.

Title: Re: What's with the response to Sandy's victims ?
Post by: graynomad on Nov 21, 2012, 03:14 am
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Lewis Black, on Greed:

That's good, I've not seen him before.

One assumes that his use for all the money is just a piss take :)

______
Rob
Title: Re: What's with the response to Sandy's victims ?
Post by: wizdum on Nov 21, 2012, 03:15 am

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Lewis Black, on Greed:


That typifies a large portion of our society: greed is good as long as you spend it in liberal-approving ways, like hiring an attractive young girl as your ball-washer, or spending it creatively (as defined by Lewis Black. Greed is bad if you didn't do as Lewis Black had deemed good.




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comedian

America is doomed as long as people like you are able to turn everything into a political issue.
Title: Re: What's with the response to Sandy's victims ?
Post by: dhenry on Nov 21, 2012, 03:17 am
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But the wealth created should be distributed more equitably.


What does that mean? How do we define "equity" / "equality"?  "equity" or "equality" of what? who defines "equity"? and why?

End of the day, it is a choice of what kind of a society we want: do we want to provide our folks upward mobility or do we want to bring down our producers.

An utopia where everyone is equally rich is a world where everyone is equally poor. If you want to know what capitalism can do for poor people, look to China.
Title: Re: What's with the response to Sandy's victims ?
Post by: graynomad on Nov 21, 2012, 03:36 am
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A utopia where everyone is equally rich

That's not what I said.

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If you want to know what capitalism can do for poor people, look to China.

You mean the millions of farmers being screwed and cheated from their land by the town's officials so said officials can get in on the property boom?

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do we want to provide our folks upward mobility or do we want to bring down our producers.

The two are not mutually exclusive.

@wizdum
We sometimes get questions about taking Arduino projects through the airports, how do you go with that Bomb Prop project of yours :)

______
Rob
Title: Re: What's with the response to Sandy's victims ?
Post by: GoForSmoke on Nov 21, 2012, 10:21 am
When our port cities and all the land now 20 ft or so above sea level is below sea level, that's a good time to admit that just maybe things got pushed a bit too hard.

What's that, about HALF the world population displaced? Not to worry! The ones who can't afford to move and push someone else off higher ground don't count!

Really, how many of RMoney's 47% had jobs/careers and homes before the Bush tax cut borrow and spend economy took them away? Something like half, in the name of realized profits. What a great deal when you get to cut so many people down and then insult them to boot. How many pensions robbed? How many people saw their life savings evaporate in the Wall Street Casino? But now they're all just lazy losers that never took responsibility? What a crock!


Title: Re: What's with the response to Sandy's victims ?
Post by: AWOL on Nov 21, 2012, 10:31 am
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What a crock!

[font=Verdana][[/font]+]
Title: Re: What's with the response to Sandy's victims ?
Post by: dhenry on Nov 21, 2012, 12:58 pm
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RMoney's 47%


In that event, Romney's 47% should all get together and redistribute wealth amongst themselves - all of their problems solved.

Just leave the rest of us out of that.
Title: Re: What's with the response to Sandy's victims ?
Post by: GoForSmoke on Nov 21, 2012, 10:23 pm
So now it's creeps who villainize the latest victims of industry gone too far. That just goes to show what kind of country we could have.

Title: Re: What's with the response to Sandy's victims ?
Post by: dhenry on Nov 22, 2012, 02:12 pm
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villainize


I see those "victims" more as blood sucking leeches that you cannot get rid of.

It is never fair for them to own up to their own decisions. Fairness to them is really to take money from others and put it into their own pockets.

The democracy they practice is nothing more than three wolves voting to eat that poor rabbit. 100% democratic, and 100% wrong too.
Title: Re: What's with the response to Sandy's victims ?
Post by: GoForSmoke on Nov 22, 2012, 04:25 pm
Yes, you should take your money and leave. Find a nice totalitarian country you can be happy in.

Title: Re: What's with the response to Sandy's victims ?
Post by: cyberteque on Nov 25, 2012, 06:24 am
I'm amazed at how right wing the world is becoming
Title: Re: What's with the response to Sandy's victims ?
Post by: focalist on Nov 25, 2012, 09:43 am
Perhaps you disagree with the role of government as established EVEN BY STATE MILITIAS (also known as the National Guard):

http://www.arng.army.mil/Pages/Default.aspx
http://www.arng.army.mil/aboutus/history/Pages/ConstitutionalCharteroftheGuard.aspx

Quite obviously you've never been through a natural disaster or other event which you cannot prepare for or handle.  Some folks are not so lucky.

Providing for the Common Defense (which also includes domestic disaster response) and General Welfare of the nation.  For ourselves and our posterity.  Sound familiar?  It's the Preamble.  We've got this funny little document kicking around which describes the role of government, the levying of taxes to support those roles, and all that fun stuff.  It establishes at least basic protections should be provided to ALL the populace based upon a series of taxes levied upon the citizens.  This is fair because those members of the populace that prosper do so by use of the public infrastructure and private work and patronage of the citizenry at large.  Accumulation of wealth comes with a responsibility to repay the society which provided the circumstances and structure (this country) that allowed the wealth to be created.  General Welfare and Common Defense.  Because not everyone gets lucky enough to avoid tragedy, and we as nation believe that we are strong enough to help our citizens in times of emergency. 
Title: Re: What's with the response to Sandy's victims ?
Post by: GoForSmoke on Nov 25, 2012, 02:11 pm
We have sanctioned trajedies any more. Whole areas of people whose water is poisoned and land wasted because of what's under it.

We've turned from the original country into a winners-take-all game of Monopoly except in the last 30 years that's gotten crossed with Musical Chairs as tax law and free trade have made exporting jobs steadily more profitable for the few at the expense of the rest.

My not favorite part is how many of the cheerleaders call themselves Christians. There's your wolves in sheep's clothing. They should hold services in banks and make pilgrimages to Wall Street.

Title: Re: What's with the response to Sandy's victims ?
Post by: dhenry on Nov 25, 2012, 08:14 pm
Quote
Quite obviously you've never been through a natural disaster or other event which you cannot prepare for or handle.  Some folks are not so lucky.


I am sure there are natural disasters that you cannot prepare for or to handle. But you are not seirously suggesting that Sandy is one of such events, right?

Quote
It establishes at least basic protections should be provided


So what are considered "basic"? food? clothing? public housing or a MacMansion for everyone? ...

[/quote]to ALL the populace[/quote]

OK, where is my mortgage principal reduction then? why am I subject to means testing, just because I did the responsible thing of saving up for my retirement or to investment in myself, rather than blowing my savings on some $500/pair shoes or $5000 flat screen tvs?

Quote
based upon a series of taxes levied upon the citizens. 


Yeah, let's levy that series of taxes on ALL of our citizens if ALL of our citizens receive benefits of such taxes.

Quote
Because not everyone gets lucky enough to avoid tragedy,


I am sure I have money in the bank because I am lucky, :)

Again, wealth redistribution is only fair to those demanding wealth redistribution as long as they are recipients of such redistribution.

You don't think so? Try to tax those folks in the name of wealth redistribution.
Title: Re: What's with the response to Sandy's victims ?
Post by: GoForSmoke on Nov 25, 2012, 11:00 pm
Homes and small businesses wiped out, it will be a while to put things back in order if something else doesn't make it worse.

But when it's banks and/or big business due to their own bad deals, let's start at 12 digits.

Do they make weapons? Make sure they get more than last time, anything else is treason.

Big Oil made trillions in profit? Give them a few billion extra to cover campaign contributions.

Halliburton? Whatever your books say happened, that's what happened, here's the money.

But oh no no no we don't want any redistribution of wealth.

BTW, the poor do pay taxes and fees all the time. Where does the landlord get the money to pay his? Ever heard of sales tax? License or ID card fees? Utility taxes? Gas tax?

What's this $500 pair of shoes? Not the usual at all. Nor the $5000 flat screen. Some may but the stereotype is just as lame as the jerkwad that uses it.

Let's hear the one about the 10 men who eat at a restaurant and the 1st one gets hit with 56% of the bill. It leaves out a few details like who eats gourmet while being entertained in the private suite of privilege and who eats cheese sandwiches at a small table next to the restroom door.

Not to mention how when the country's in a mess, who by far and beyond get drafted and even in peacetime fill the enlisted military positions? Or to put a finer point on it, whose children get to die for the security of the privileges they never had?

Instead of managing the problem they helped make many times worse over the past 3 decades, the GOP operates on a "get rid of them" view while espousing to be the party of responsibility. Responsible to their big campaign contributors, not the country and people they exploit.

If stimulus was evil in 2009 then why was the even bigger stimulus package of 2008 good? Or the other Bush stimulus packages? Oh yeah, GOP never says anything the GOP does is wrong even if when the DEMS do it The World Will End.

If tax cuts makes jobs then please explain how in 11 YEARS since the big 2001 cut there have been less and less jobs with 2007 and 2008 taking the US into a depression?

GOP is party of denial and bad math. Also the Hate and Fear Groupthink Party.
That and their lunatic fringe base is why they lost the election and their best sitting members.

Title: Re: What's with the response to Sandy's victims ?
Post by: Ran Talbott on Nov 28, 2012, 01:14 am

I'm amazed at how right wing the world is becoming

Y'know, it really isn't. There are real exceptions: the Russians have moved right in response to the anarchy that followed the collapse of the Soviet empire. And some that are portrayed that way, but really aren't, like some "Arab Spring" countries that are only advancing to 18th- or 19th-century (semi-)theocracies instead of leaping to the 21st century pluralist liberal democracy that many hoped for.

Every day, all around the world, people who previously just rolled over for authoritarianism are dying to get rid of it, or to resist those who would (re)impose it. Sometimes against the very same odds that made it seem "futile" before. Even the Chinese are inching (or maybe just millimeter-ing) away from it.

In the U.S., we've developed something of a dip in the bell curve as more on the right have shifted to the extreme, but overall left-right mix hasn't changed much on social and economic issues. There's been some drop in the resistance to encroachments on civil liberties in response to 9/11, but that spans the whole spectrum.

The right wing has gotten more visible, thanks to cable, talk radio, and the net. And it's temporarily gotten more powerful, thanks to its takeover of the GOP.  But simple demographics guarantee that that will pass, and the GOP will either moderate, or go the way of the Federalist Party.
Title: Re: What's with the response to Sandy's victims ?
Post by: retrolefty on Nov 28, 2012, 01:42 am
Quote
Not to mention how when the country's in a mess, who by far and beyond get drafted and even in peacetime fill the enlisted military positions? Or to put a finer point on it, whose children get to die for the security of the privileges they never had?


Nice rant and glad you are firmly a fanboy of one side of the great cultural divide this country is in. By the way the Military is 100% voluntary, there hasn't been a draft in effect for almost 40 years, but don't let facts get in the way of a good class warfare battle.  ;)

Lefty
Title: Re: What's with the response to Sandy's victims ?
Post by: GoForSmoke on Nov 28, 2012, 02:35 am
Draft or not, military service is the main route out of the hood, as I know very well.

Where do most of the soldiers that guard the precious privileges and foreign assets come from?
But oh yeah, they get paid and have the VA for healthcare when they get out, what a deal!

Sorry Lefty but if you really knew poor, you wouldn't think the draft is all that sucks.

Title: Re: What's with the response to Sandy's victims ?
Post by: retrolefty on Nov 28, 2012, 02:55 am

Draft or not, military service is the main route out of the hood, as I know very well.

And I enlisted in the military in the mid 60s and came from a well to do family. I met people in the service from all walks of life, so what's your point?

Where do most of the soldiers that guard the precious privileges and foreign assets come from?
But oh yeah, they get paid and have the VA for healthcare when they get out, what a deal!

I received a first class education in electronics as part of my military service and it set me up for a very successful and satisfying career is civilian life after those four years. And I consider my decision to enlist in the service one of the best decision I ever made. It may not be the best path for everyone but like so many things in life it is what you make of it.

Sorry Lefty but if you really knew poor, you wouldn't think the draft is all that sucks.

I have no doubt that being poor sucks. Life is not fair and the universe cares none about ones station in life. But that aside there are many many people that start out in life poor and find a way to improve themselves. The military is but one way many have found to be path out of poverty either by the education gained in an single enlistment or by making it a career. And of course there are people born rich that later in life lose it all in poor decisions or just bad luck. I ask again what is your point, that life is not fair? That somehow all people should be equal in wealth? I just think too many typical ideology class warfare battles have left you too wounded to think logically or practical.  ;)

Lefty


Title: Re: What's with the response to Sandy's victims ?
Post by: GoForSmoke on Nov 28, 2012, 04:29 am
My point is that well over half the military comes directly from less than the 'unwanted' half of the population and has so for decades. Where do most of the casualties come from?
I can appreciate that a lot of middle class kids do enlist but when I was there in the 70's they were a minority.

My point is that the contribution of the poor to this nation's security is not devalued but ignored in the neo-Rand view of the neo-cons. It's not the only positive contribution ignored but this is one that is too often paid in blood and is being ignored by people who respect only money.

They should have to man the front lines of battle with their children and grandchildren in the same percent as their wealth protected and then we'll see how fast they cry for war.

As the Firesign Theatre put it: Them, Mostly Them, and not many of Us. And that's why we're here and they're there, so there....