Chinese clones

I have a gen-u-whine arduino board for most of my prototyping, shields, etc. It's great. But when I want to do a permanent install of a project, I use a pro-mini from ebay. They cost less than $10, shipped, which is almost ridiculous. I've only used 2 so far, and one of them had a bad voltage regulator. Still, for that price, it's hard to complain.

The first Arduino that I bought was a genuine Arduino from the official shop. I bought it for a friend that uses it to log the data of his solar panels. I now have an Uno and Mega2560 that I bought from Arduino-direct (Chinese webshop). Quality looks the same, I've had no trouble with the pin headers or anything else.

When you buy an original Arduino, you pay to support this website, the website where you get to discuss Chinese clones.

Can someone tell me what is exactly wrong with the Chinese arduino clones?

They don't contribute back to the community. The community is a pretty fundamental component of open-source designs, and includes both the official Arduino team and the extended user/development community.

(I should say that the examples here are made-up; I have no idea who does and doesn't kick back to the Original Team, for instance.)

So if Sparkfun makes their "pro" or Adafruit makes their BoArduino Arduino clones and sends some royalties back to the Arduino team, they've done spectacularly well. An "enhanced" product that offers additional features (or less features, as the case may be), complementing the official product line. Plus cheaper. Plus additional support from their development teams. Plus additional distribution power (Sparkfun at Microcenter!)

Now, if I make a "Freeduino" clone, or Seeed does their Seeeduino, and start selling it without sending any royalties to the original team, then we've done "pretty well." There's a differentiated product with some features that some people will find useful, and participation in the community, and things learned during the publication, and new channels.

And if someone takes the reference design, changes the name to XYZDuino on the silkscreen, and starts selling it at a lower price as "XYZDuino Arduino-compatible" on eBay, well... that's about the the minimum required to be "behaving." They haven't contributed very much, other than a lower price (which may help some people buy them) and maybe an sales channel that prevented Arduino from being unavailable in a particular country/etc.

------- Here is the line. -------- (IMNSHO) --------

On the wrong side of the line are clone vendors who simply take the reference design as-is (or modify it to be MORE official-looking), manufacture it and sell it as an Arduino. They haven't contributed anything, they don't participate, and they're lying about the origin. Still, nice and cheap.

And then some vendors will do it badly, shipping product that doesn't work right, requires additional support by the "real" community and/or frustrates would-be users and/or gives the official products a bad reputation.

In my opinion, the line is crossed with the "counterfeit" clones. Those made and sold to fool people into thinking they are getting an "Official board made in Italy" (a direct quote from Amazon's web site right now (http://www.amazon.com/Arduino-A000046-UNO-board/dp/B004CG4CN4/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1326489594&sr=8-1), but which when ordered will deliver you a counterfeit). When you get the board (as I did last week) it will not say made in Italy, but cleverly says "designed in Italy". But the silkscreening, colors, everything is an attempt to copy the official boards. Yes, the board may work like the official ones, but you will never quite know if that latest glitch is something that is subtly different about it, or whether it is something you did.

runaway_pancake:
Often, the clone I/O headers aren't soldered on right - they'll be pitched, askew, crooked.

Strange, I have that on my official Arduino board too.

where this discussion falls down is the SeeedStudio Mega clone is the bestest Mega1280 board!
It brings out every pin of the 1280, you can even us the Nootropic video experimenter shield with it.

I haven't seen a SeeedStudio Mega prototyping shield yet, but for my genuine Mega's I use the DFRobot prototyping shield, which is freakin great.
The Sparkfun Mega Prototyping shield is useless for anything other than putting a breadboard on.

The Australian Arduino's from Freetronics are excellent quality and their prototyping board is an excellent product.

cyberteque:
where this discussion falls down is the SeeedStudio Mega clone is the bestest Mega1280 board!
It brings out every pin of the 1280, you can even us the Nootropic video experimenter shield with it.

I haven't seen a SeeedStudio Mega prototyping shield yet, but for my genuine Mega's I use the DFRobot prototyping shield, which is freakin great.
The Sparkfun Mega Prototyping shield is useless for anything other than putting a breadboard on.

The Australian Arduino's from Freetronics are excellent quality and their prototyping board is an excellent product.

All these have supported the Arduino. Either by changing and mixing the original arduino design with some shields or board formats. Others have contributed by making it more available than they were.

Hi,

When I was a newbie, I bought a couple of Arduino Uno clones from HK, but I asked the seller where they are made etc.. He was straight up and told me all the boards were made up in China, however I have no gurantee that the components are of quality. The boards work fine (so far) and were about 2/3 the cost of "genuine" ones. However they look like almost perfect copies right down to the lettering and markings, and could easily fool the untrained eye into believing they are genuine. It would only be one step further to put them in looky-likey packages too, with a made in Italy sticker on! (he didn't do that - they came in plain anti-static bags).

Eight months on, I now regret not supporting the community, because they have been so helpful with my learning and I will not buy "counterfeit" arduino boards in future.

Of course if I can't get a genuine "special-type" I may need to source one elsewhere.

I agree that the purpose of the Arduino trademark, etc. is to ensure that some royalties go back to support the project now that it's a commercial venture as opposed to a grant-funded entity. I have boards from Arduino, sparkfun, Modern Devices, Jeelabs, and Iteadstudio. I have not had any issues with any of them. For me, it comes down less to where the board was manufactured and more down to the support that the manufacturer is giving the community.

However, another consideration is the innovation that some of the 'clone' manufacturers are pushing forward. For example, can you name a Arduino board that has a on-board Wiznet Ethernet, Xbee header, micro-SD receptacle, and NRF+ header while maintaining the original Arduino footprint? I can't, and for $29, this complete board costs about 50% less than just the Ethernet shield (!!!) So as I see it, sometimes these 'clone' companies are just as much pushing the hardware envelope as the folk over in Italy.

I have no idea if Iteadstudio is supporting the Arduino efforts or not financially. As such, the Arduino team might do a better job of highlighting which sources of Arduino-compatible hardware are doing their fair share of supporting the project. For example, this may be a great opportunity to install some banner ads in the forums to drive business to supporters, which in turn can support the cost of maintaining, upgrading, etc. the web site. This site is a free resource, but something besides hardware sales should be supporting its upkeep.

As such, the Arduino team might do a better job of highlighting which sources of Arduino-compatible hardware are doing their fair share of supporting the project.

I like this idea, but it might also work the other way around.

The sources of Arduino-compatible hardware ie the developers and vendors could explicitly state "We support the Arduino community" and a statment of how and where etc... with an official exclusive supporters logo. With attached terms and conditions of use, which links back to a page with names of regisered users of said logo. This is so buyers can check. Ok it could be counterfeited, but those guys would have to be real criminals to go that far.

I wouldn't advocate a complicated scheme that needs lot's of policing. Just forcing the sellers to make a positive assertive claim to support the Aduino community might be a step in the right direction. And as others have said there are many ways to support the community. The community just needs to decide which ways are accepatable and which are just cheeky marketing ploys.

Ok it could be counterfeited

I just question the use of the word 'counterfeit' when talking about 3rd party board suppliers. Clearly counterfeit has a legal definition and to the best of my knowledge in context with Arduino boards, it means that they cannot use the trademark name of 'Arduino'. This is a different issue then if a given board manufacture supports the arduino community or not. The Arduino company purposely released all there design documentation for anyone to use, private or commercial, asking only that all parties respect their trademark, not the design or the right to manufacture 'clones'.

I don't in anyway condone or knowingly support any person or commerical party that does not respect and obey the usage of the Arduino trademark, but that does not mean that 3rd party board suppliers are building counterfeit boards unless they are indeed infringing on the trademark from a legal aspect, irrespective if they 'give back' to the community or not.

Yes "counterfeit" is the wrong word.

What I mean is, it would be easier to make an informed choice of who to buy from if we know more information about who is supporting the community and how.

So I guess not infringing trademark and copyright (from a legal aspect) would be a mininum, and surely some of these guys go much further in their support of the community and maybe deserve some extra credit for that?

The Arduino company purposely released all there design documentation

Actually, they didn't. The fancy bottom-side silkscreen layer with the logo and map of Italy are not part of the reference design. If you have a board that include them, but isn't from an official distributor, that's not a good sign!

Why buy the Chinese clones? With a minor bit of effort you can program the bare chips and use them. I have made my own programmer board with a 20 pin and 28 pin socket and a 16Mhz resonator and I can program 8, 20 and 28 pin chips on it using my Arduino Uno. ATmel and whichever supplier I use make a buck and I don't have to wonder about the pirate company from China or Brazil.

Programing a chip directly is so simple, and takes no extra time and then you can embed the chip any way you want to. Might be better off investing a little of your time into designing a board and having a small batch made instead of buying a ripoff clone.

Personally, I am glad I got the Arduino Uno board to start with. I was able to get a device that worked, I was able to support the Arduino Project and I got the software and this forum. Great deal and a great price.

The fancy bottom-side silkscreen layer with the logo and map of Italy

That is interesting since the boards I got from HK had that.

Why buy the Chinese clones? With a minor bit of effort you can program the bare chips and use them.

Yeah. That's where I'm heading now. Gonna get an ISP, go barebones and low power. My first real Italian Arduino was a great start for me.

As a postcript: I blew up the USB interface on one of my Chinese clones. But it was totally my fault - accidentally put 12v thru it. Poetic justice and Karma is satisfied? XD

Apologies to TommieTippee for sorta hijacking the post.

trendski:
Yeah. That's where I'm heading now. Gonna get an ISP, go barebones and low power. My first real Italian Arduino was a great start for me.

You don't need to get an ISP. You already have an Arduino and that works just great as an ISP. The Arduino ISP Sketch that comes with 1.0 has to be changed to 9600 baud, or you use .22 and you can run it at 19200. 6 wires and a 120Ohm resistor and you can program chips all day long.

do a search for - Arduino ISP

kf2qd:
The Arduino ISP Sketch that comes with 1.0 has to be changed to 9600 baud, or you use .22 and you can run it at 19200.

Or you can get a modified version from me that works at 19200, supports 250000 baud, and implements "polling". Uploads are up to six times faster. (I promise to get it published soon. Work keeps getting in the way.)

6 wires and a 120Ohm resistor and you can program chips all day long.

Neither a resistor nor a capacitor are not needed if the Arduino has a recent version of optiboot installed.

I'm still puzzled by this, so could someone answer these basic questions :

  • ArduinoISP sketch is using SPI to program the target, right ?
  • SPI serial can be any speed, hence faster than the Serial interface ?
  • The IDE says "burning bootloader (in target) using Arduino as ISP." Does it burn a skech, bootloader or both ?
  • If the target already has a bootloader, is it overwritten every time ? (Pro mini for example)
  • Is it possible to use SoftwareSerial or a Mega to program a target using "Serial2" ?

Sorry if these questions are a bit off subject.

tochinet:

  • ArduinoISP sketch is using SPI to program the target, right ?

Yes.

  • SPI serial can be any speed, hence faster than the Serial interface ?

No on the "any speed". Maybe on the "faster than Serial".

The SPI bitrate is clamped by the target's clock. If the target's clock is < 12 MHz, the maximum bit rate is target clock / 6 otherwise the maximum bit rate is target clock / 4.

  • The IDE says "burning bootloader (in target) using Arduino as ISP." Does it burn a skech, bootloader or both ?

Sets the fuses and burns a bootloader.

  • If the target already has a bootloader, is it overwritten every time ? (Pro mini for example)

Every time Burn Bootloader is executed? Yes.

  • Is it possible to use SoftwareSerial or a Mega to program a target using "Serial2" ?

Through a bootloader? Yes.