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Topic: Moderation and Clones (Read 4275 times) previous topic - next topic

luisilva


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Advertisement
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Advertisement of Arduino clones, should link to moderate the message, and could be linked to a legal action by the Arduino team.
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I don't understand this part, specially the "legal action" part. I can follow it, I can agree that the project need money to keep alive and keep growing (this is a natural thing), but this rule don't follow the philosophy of the "open hardware" (in my opinion).
This rule is saying that if some student (when I was student I don't had to much money) came to the forum asking for something, and in the middle of the thread he/she asks "BTW, do you know some cheap clone board of Arduino, to buy one and bring it home so I can do something in home too", if I answer in public I can get sued? And if I point to some page where are the layout's I can get sued too?

OK, the server's that have this forum are paid with the money that the Arduino project make when they sell a board, but I think this rule (wrote like this) sound too hard.

Coding Badly


@luisilva, you certainly have a vivid imagination.  (Or have trouble understanding what the word "advertisement" means.)

This rule is saying that if some student (when I was student I don't had to much money) came to the forum asking for something, and in the middle of the thread he/she asks "BTW, do you know some cheap clone board of Arduino, to buy one and bring it home so I can do something in home too", if I answer in public I can get sued?


Not even close.

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And if I point to some page where are the layout's I can get sued too?


Not even close.

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OK, the server's that have this forum are paid with the money that the Arduino project make when they sell a board, but I think this rule (wrote like this) sound too hard.


Do you sell a counterfeit board?  Before you respond, read and understand this...
http://blog.arduino.cc/2013/07/10/send-in-the-clones/

luisilva

First of all, many thanks for give me that link. I didn't know that page and have very interesting information.(really)

Maybe you are a very busy man, and you don't have time to explain the things right.

This rule is saying that if some student (when I was student I don't had to much money) came to the forum asking for something, and in the middle of the thread he/she asks "BTW, do you know some cheap clone board of Arduino, to buy one and bring it home so I can do something in home too", if I answer in public I can get sued?


Not even close.

Ok, but why?


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And if I point to some page where are the layout's I can get sued too?


Not even close.

Very good! Can you explain why?

Because what I read is:

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Advertisement
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Advertisement of Arduino clones, should link to moderate the message, and could be linked to a legal action by the Arduino team.
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@luisilva, you certainly have a vivid imagination.  (Or have trouble understanding what the word "advertisement" means.)


I think I've both, but the first can't be applied in this discussion because I only read what is write. Maybe the second is the more appropriated in this case, but I think that when is said "legal action" it must be well defined and very clear what is "Advertisement".

The only conclusion that I cant take from this is that I must be very careful when I give links to someone, but once I know that, there is no trouble to me.

I don't write this to upset anybody, I only think that the information is not very clear.

SirNickity

It's a subtle difference, but this is the point they are trying to make:

- You can build your own, you can buy compatible boards, you can point out other vendors that may sell compatible hardware, you can even make and sell compatible hardware.  No problem.  It's open-source hardware, and that's all fair game.

- You can NOT build a board and slap the Arduino name and logo on it, unless you have entered into a license agreement with Arduino.  (This is the technical definition of a "clone", but perhaps should be referred to as a "knock-off".)  Using the Arduino name and/or logo violates their trademark.  If you build a board and call it "MyDuino" then you're safe.  (Although they kindly request you not butcher the name and use the "duino" suffix, they will not actually stop you from doing so.)  Using the name and/or logo will get you a nasty letter from Arduino, and possibly result in legal action.  This is absolutely fair, even (or especially) with the hardware being open source.

- You may not recommend "clones" to others here on the forum, and posts that do so may be removed by moderators.  (Although usually they're relaxed enough just to point out that you should be using genuine hardware, or at least legal derivatives instead.)  Arduino pays the bills here, so it's their right to enforce this stipulation, and if you are a decent person, you should respect that wish whether or not it's enforced because it's the right thing to do.

So, you can relax.  No one will take issue with you building your own, or buying a competing product -- so long as that competing product does not claim to be "an Arduino".  It isn't.

luisilva

Hi SirNickity! Thanks for your opinion. I agree almost 100% with it. But "your definition" of clone is different from the official one. Thanks to Coding Badly, now I know what is the official definition of clone.

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- Clones
A market developed for products we call Clones which are exact (or almost exact) replicas of Arduino boards with a different branding , i.e. they are usually named with some variation of Ardu-something or something-duino. These products are released according to trademark laws (unless they copy almost exactly our graphics which is not open-source) and have a place in the market.

Customers who want to support the Arduino project should be aware that these products do not give back anything financially and very rarely in term of help on software or documentation.


I agree to when you say:


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- You may not recommend "clones" to others here on the forum, and posts that do so may be removed by moderators.
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Specially the part:

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  Arduino pays the bills here, so it's their right to enforce this stipulation, and if you are a decent person, you should respect that wish whether or not it's enforced because it's the right thing to do.
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Like I said in my first post. But there are special cases, that with care (and with that you say in mind), we may point in a different direction. But what I read say a different thing.

Coding Badly

Ok, but why?
Very good! Can you explain why?


The Arduino folks believe so strongly in free speech that the documentation and board design are published under a very liberal open source license.  Do you honestly believe those same people would sue you or anyone else for exercising your right to free speech?

luisilva


Ok, but why?
Very good! Can you explain why?


The Arduino folks believe so strongly in free speech that the documentation and board design are published under a very liberal open source license.  Do you honestly believe those same people would sue you or anyone else for exercising your right to free speech?



Of course that I don't believe that (or I don't want to believe that), but what is write in that rule is exactly the opposite of that.

I think that some kind of:

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- You may not recommend "clones" to others here on the forum, and posts that do so may be removed by moderators.  (Although usually they're relaxed enough just to point out that you should be using genuine hardware, or at least legal derivatives instead.) Arduino pays the bills here, so it's their right to enforce this stipulation, and if you are a decent person, you should respect that wish whether or not it's enforced because it's the right thing to do.
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was much more appropriated.

Like I said in the very first point of this thread the only part that "I don't understand" and I think that "sounds too hard" is the "legal action" part.

Coding Badly

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Like I said in the very first point of this thread the only part that "I don't understand" and I think that "sounds too hard" is the "legal action" part.


Here you go...
https://www.google.com/searchq=legal%20action%20against%20trademark%20infringement

Coding Badly

Of course that I don't believe that...


Then why are you continuing this discussion?

SirNickity

Hi SirNickity! Thanks for your opinion. I agree almost 100% with it. But "your definition" of clone is different from the official one. Thanks to Coding Badly, now I know what is the official definition of clone.


If you want to be pedantic, "clone" might be used in either context:  A clone of an Arduino board with third-party branding, or a clone of an Arduino board with counterfeit branding.  Both are probably valid uses of the word.  You really have to take it from context.  Here's the piece of text you originally referred to:

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Advertisement
No advertisement to non-Arduino-related products of any form are tolerated in any boards. Website links in the signature are fine as long as it doesn't have too many links in it. Use your judgement. Actual links to other sites are discouraged.

Advertisement of Arduino clones, should link to moderate the message, and could be linked to a legal action by the Arduino team. On the other hand, ads of Arduino derivatives, shields of all types, suggestions for improvements, are not considered spam when e.g. coming as part of a discussion like user A asks "how can I solve this project", sometimes the answer is as easy as "buy the XYZ shield by ABC at http://thatwebsite.com", and that should not be moderated. Please use common sense in these cases.


The text isn't perfectly written, but as near as I can tell it means this:  First, you are not allowed to take advantage of this board's traffic as a cheap method of self-promotion.  However, some people promote themselves or their products in their signature, in a reasonable and unobtrusive manner, and that is perfectly acceptable.  (Even beneficial, and in accordance with the community spirit.)

Second, if you try to peddle your counterfeit hardware here, you're going to bring upon yourself the wrath of Arduino's legal team.  Note that the text specifically allows discussion of non-Arduino hardware that doesn't infringe their rights -- to include clones that DO NOT use the Arduino logo or name.  This is done with such regularity that I feel very confident that I am interpreting correctly the spirit of the rules, even if the actual wording is somewhat ambiguous and possibly even contradictory to the definitions used in the blog post that was reference above.  We don't all speak the same tongue here, and so there's going to be a certain amount of "fudge-factor" involved.

There seem to be a few people lately that feel the need to scrutinize the policies of this site.  In general, the Arduino folks have been extremely supportive of everyone in the community.  The users, fellow vendors, retailers, authors, blog posters, etc.  Their actions speak far more loudly than any boilerplate legalese.  If you want to understand their intentions, participate in the community and see for yourself.  I don't understand the need to pick apart any official text looking for draconian policy or half-hearted open-source philosophy.  As far as I can tell, it's just not there.  They want this thing to thrive, and are very generous in what they allow, while doing only what is necessary to protect themselves.

Lighten up and have fun, eh?

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