For Sounding Balloons or Red Bull Stratos: Why not use hydrogen over helium

Most likely leakage. The Helium Molecule is larger than the Hydrogen molecule so it leaks less. Pump any other gas into a container and it stays there. Pump hydrogen in and if there is ANY thought of a crack it will all leak out.

Another possibility is the amount of expansion of hydrogen over helium.

And for the volumn it might just be too dangerous...

Hyrogen will burn in almost any mixture with oxygen. Some gases can actually self smother because they need a critical mixture to burn.

kf2qd:
Most likely leakage. The Helium Molecule is larger than the Hydrogen molecule so it leaks less. Pump any other gas into a container and it stays there. Pump hydrogen in and if there is ANY thought of a crack it will all leak out.

Another possibility is the amount of expansion of hydrogen over helium.

And for the volumn it might just be too dangerous...

Hyrogen will burn in almost any mixture with oxygen. Some gases can actually self smother because they need a critical mixture to burn.

I mentioned the permeation of hydrogen in my original post. I know that is a problem with hydrogen gas. It's also a problem with helium. I wonder which is worse. Hydrogen gas is diatomic. Helium is monoatomic. The ratio of molecular weights is slightly less than 1:2 not 1:4. I wonder what the molecular sizes are.

GoForSmoke:
hydrogen mixed with air does need a spark to set it off.

Bullshit. The heat generated from pressurized hydrogen escaping its container is enough to ignite it.

You can get sparks from static but hey they send instrumented balloons up on hydrogen all the time... I wonder how many of those burn up?

You failed to include the most important word in your description ... "unmanned". How many funerals have there been for unmanned balloons?

Mr. Baumgartner and his team had a very long list of things to concern them. The last thing they would want on that list is a 30 million cubic foot balloon filled with a very high energy fuel.

The heat generated from pressurized hydrogen escaping

"Pressurized hydrogen escaping" is expanding. Heat is required for said expansion; the expanding gas gets colder as it expands.

-j

Joule-Thomson appear to disagree with you...

I have first-hand knowledge that escaping hydrogen can ignite in the way I've described.

For a "near space" project hydrogen is fine.
Here in Australia the Bureau of Meteorology release 2 weather balloons a day.
They fill them with hydrogen, because it's cheaper.
When you fill your balloon you need to do it fairly slowly, static is a BAD thing.

The Hindenburg gave hydrogen a bad rep!

I've filled quite a few balloons with hydrogen, all the times I've set myself on fire it was doing way dumber stuff.

You can make hydrogen from electrolysis or chemical reactions, like zinc in hydrochloric acid.
Most folks don't realise all the helium we have is all the helium we have!
It's why the USA could only fill the Los Agngeles OR the Akron, but never both!
There is quite a bit of controversy about the use of helium right now.
The USA has a stockpile, some scientists are cautioning that we are running out.

For MIG welding ARGSHIELD is way cheaper than helium, it's not as good, but you really only need helium if you are MIG welding aluminium.

Right now I'm going through all the rigmarole of getting CASA approval for a near space balloon.
The pricks are making me jump through more hoops than a dog and pony show!

When/if I finally get approval my balloon is going to be filled with hydrogen.
BOC gasses will sell you a cylinder full, it's no big deal.

The basic safety precautions are

  • fill the balloon slowly
  • don't wear synthetics
  • don't smoke (hardest bit for me!)

Basically it's just a case of THINKING!

Joule-Thomson appear to disagree with you...
Joule–Thomson effect - Wikipedia

I have first-hand knowledge that escaping hydrogen can ignite in the way I've described.

huh.

Helium and hydrogen are two gases whose Joule–Thomson inversion temperatures at a pressure of one atmosphere are very low (e.g., about 51 K (?222 °C) for helium). Thus, helium and hydrogen warm up when expanded at constant enthalpy at typical room temperatures.

OK, so there are some special cases.

I do know that the plumbing for a balloon fill connection gets cold. We dump pretty much a whole tank of He into a balloon, going from 2200PSI to 1ATM in the process.

-j

Couldn't you use less helium by heating it?

cyberteque:
Most folks don't realise all the helium we have is all the helium we have!

That was sort of my point. You think Helium is expensive now, wait until we have to make it via a nuclear process alpha-emitting. And that will be the last way to get it if we use it all up. It is one of the truly unrenewable resources on this planet. And it's one of the few things within your personal power to send to outer space.

Groove:
Couldn't you use less helium by heating it?

It would add weight to the payload. I am guessing that someone already thought of this and figured that there would not be a payoff.

What I am interested in knowing is if there is any theoretical way using nanostructures to make balloons out of vaccuums (voided nano-scale compartments or even human-scale ones) instead of using a lighter than air gas at all. I envision something like styrofoam with voids in it and very light carbon materials keeping the voided areas voided and weighing very little. Obviously the material science isn't there yet, but it is progressing quickly.

Problem with using a vacuum structure is that the structure weighs more that the air it is displacing and thus it won't float on air which is what Hydrogen and Helium do.

kf2qd:
Problem with using a vacuum structure is that the structure weighs more that the air it is displacing and thus it won't float on air which is what Hydrogen and Helium do.

Because you said so? Link?

Operative word there is "can".

And yet for years and years people have been able to avoid just that problem.
Gotta love engineering to get things right instead of wrong.

GoForSmoke:
Operative word there is "can".

You are wrong. The operative words are "first hand knowledge".

And yet for years and years people have been able to avoid just that problem.

Wrong again.

Interesting discussion :slight_smile:
About the lifting power - Hydrogen and Helium in Airship Operations | Airships.net -

about the leakage discussion:

A hydrogen atom is smaller than a helium atom, so you would expect hydrogen to have a very high leakage rate. But like nitrogen or oxygen, hydrogen molecules exist only as a pair of hydrogen atoms stuck together, and so are much larger than a helium atom.

Source - http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/mats05/mats05203.htm -

Commercial production of Helium is done by distilling natural gas, which can contain up to 5-7% helium. It is result of natural radioactive decay so it is also found in uranium ore in higher concentrations. So as long as we have natural gas we will have Helium. Furthermore by the time we go to the moon again it will be one of the main export products of the moon.

robtillaart:
Commercial production of Helium is done by distilling natural gas, which can contain up to 5-7% helium. It is result of natural radioactive decay so it is also found in uranium ore in higher concentrations. So as long as we have natural gas we will have Helium. Furthermore by the time we go to the moon again it will be one of the main export products of the moon.

If memory serves, the reason we want the helium on the moon is that it is Helium-3 and will be used for power production via fusion. That would be the only way to justify the huge expense in extracting it, if that ever happens at all (it would be the biggest project humanity has ever done by far.) It's not going to be used to fill balloons.

Then learn how a spark is made. Electron orbitals, photons and all.

And yes, people -have- been filling balloons big and small for a long, long time with hydrogen and not getting burned or blown up, they have avoided that exact problem. Sorry you didn't share their experience, happy they didn't share yours!

I am lovin' this "hydrogen hysteria"!

MUST show this thread to the guys that launch the radiosonde balloons at the weather bureau!

If you're not careful with black powder it can happen, mmm, fond memories of going to school with no eyebrows, eyelashes and frizzy hair!

Just so we know, CodingBadly, how did you loose your eyebrows with hydrogen?

GoForSmoke:
And yes, people -have- been filling balloons big and small for a long, long time with hydrogen and not getting burned or blown up, they have avoided that exact problem. Sorry you didn't share their experience, happy they didn't share yours!

Once again you assume to know what's in my mind and what my experiences have been. And, once again, you are wrong.

cyberteque:
Just so we know, CodingBadly, how did you loose your eyebrows with hydrogen?

Years ago I worked at a gas compressing plant. One of our products was ultra-pure hydrogen gas. The gas was stored in slender high-strength steel cylinders; a smaller stronger variation of a propane tank. A small thick steel tube was used to transport the gas to each tank.

Despite every precaution, despite using the best materials, an explosion occurred. The explosion had enough energy to open several nearby tanks resulting in an even larger explosion. One of my coworkers was killed.

The investigation revealed that one of the metal fittings corroded. A pinhole leak developed. The escaping gas became hot enough to self-ignite triggering the disaster.