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Community => Bar Sport => Topic started by: JimboZA on Jan 22, 2013, 06:00 am

Title: RANT ALERT: All the college / uni project questions
Post by: JimboZA on Jan 22, 2013, 06:00 am
[rant]
I know forums are magnets for school / college / uni project help... that's the nature of the beast.

But I can't help but think that right now, there are too many threads started by people who literally don't know where to start.

I can kind of understand that with a school project: with so little knowledge it's easy to underestimate the skill level. I'm spending quite a bit of time helping one such poster right now, and am doing so (reasonably) gladly.

But I'm terribly disappointed that final year (or at least reasonably well along the years) college and uni students who should know better, are picking projects about which they have absolutely no freaking clue and more to the point, nfc about the project planning and problem solving side of things. Their problem solving ability seems to extend to finding a forum and starting a "We committed to build a Mars Rover. I'm in charge of the electronics and programming, but know bugger all about either. Please send circuits diagrams and code. Btw, it's due to be deployed by tomorrow lunch time. Oh and did I mention it needs to send back telemetry for analysis in real time?" thread.

Colleague of mine- retired but back as a consultant- calls them "Google Engineers". What ARE they learning?
[/rant]
Title: Re: RANT ALERT: All the college / uni project questions
Post by: Boffin1 on Jan 22, 2013, 06:17 am
I wonder if one day we will get a poster asking where to start on making a project that flashes an LED on pin 13 every second ?
Title: Re: RANT ALERT: All the college / uni project questions
Post by: wizdum on Jan 22, 2013, 09:09 am
Its been my experience that many of these so called learning institutions do little to actually help the students, and just hand them their piece of paper after they have completed x amount of busy work.

Although I might be a little biased at the moment, I just spent a day filling an 80 gallon contractor grade trashbag with old busy-work papers while cleaning my office.
Title: Re: RANT ALERT: All the college / uni project questions
Post by: nickgammon on Jan 22, 2013, 09:55 am
Like this post today?

Quote
... we don't have any programming background. We are currently having a thesis project ... Could someone help us in the code'? We really cannot proceed because of this code...


They are hoping to get a major qualification with assistance from this forum. I know a thesis is supposed to be about research, but surely you don't take on a project about which you know nothing?
Title: Re: RANT ALERT: All the college / uni project questions
Post by: JimboZA on Jan 22, 2013, 10:04 am
Yep I think it was that one which spurred me to that rant...

Sure, being a student is all about learning, and yes, a huge body of knowledge exists in this and hundreds of other forums in scores of fields and so it makes sense to pick peoples' brains. But wow, just to ask for a turnkey solution like that makes me wonder if those folks are a) in the right course b) actually went to any classes, labs and tuts and c) why they chose that particular project?
Title: Re: RANT ALERT: All the college / uni project questions
Post by: JimboZA on Jan 22, 2013, 10:31 am
If I was a lecturer I'd be an anonymous member of all the appropriate forums. Then at the students' viva voce exams I'd quiz them on what help they got before confronting them with their threads and failing them.
Title: Re: RANT ALERT: All the college / uni project questions
Post by: Boffin1 on Jan 22, 2013, 10:35 am
I think Jimbo, we can expect more of these local questions from our people that passed their matriculant exams with 30 %  !
Title: Re: RANT ALERT: All the college / uni project questions
Post by: JimboZA on Jan 22, 2013, 10:37 am

I think Jimbo, we can expect more of these local questions from our people that passed their matriculant exams with 30 %  !


Eish.....
Title: Re: RANT ALERT: All the college / uni project questions
Post by: grendle on Jan 22, 2013, 12:50 pm
sigh, i kind of agree with this rant, but, why respond to it if it is something that makes you want to go on a rant? people may come here thinking that electronic pros/hobbyists are more than happy to do what they're asking of the forum. i certainly did. in my case, im an olderrrr gentleman, retired, disabled veteran, nothing to do nowhere to go, i chose this (arduino) as a hobby. i been fiddling with stuff like this for years, so in some cases a lil refresher is all it takes for me, especially since the language is new to me. so gosh darn it why wont you tell me how to get an led to blink on pin 13!! besides, has anyone tried the search feature on the playground? maybe mine is the only one thats broke then because more often than not it returns nothing! hey, one good rant deserves another  :D
Title: Re: RANT ALERT: All the college / uni project questions
Post by: JimboZA on Jan 22, 2013, 12:57 pm
My point was not that I don't want to help nor that people should ask.

My rant goes to senior students with no clue how to go about a problem solving exercise other than asking someone else for the answers. I'm an engineer and know what engineering is. It's about solving problems, and sure, the wheel is already round and we should use whatever prior knowledge we can, but I'd fire an engineer who asked others for the answer. I could ask that other person, and cut out the middle man...
Title: Re: RANT ALERT: All the college / uni project questions
Post by: grendle on Jan 22, 2013, 01:12 pm

sigh, i kind of agree with this rant


yup, i totally agree with

Quote
My rant goes to senior students with no clue how to go about a problem solving exercise other than asking someone else for the answers.


but your a nicer guy than i am, you would fire them, i would hire assasins.
Title: Re: RANT ALERT: All the college / uni project questions
Post by: JimboZA on Jan 22, 2013, 01:18 pm
Quote
cut out the middle man...


Or woman, I hasten to add.....
Title: Re: RANT ALERT: All the college / uni project questions
Post by: el_supremo on Jan 22, 2013, 05:24 pm
I'm getting old and cynical but I do not believe for one nanosecond that the vast majority of these people are at "uni". There is simply no way that someone could get to their "final year project at uni" and be so clueless about electronics and/or programming unless they are majoring in stupidity and sloth.
Most of these so-called "final projects" (some even have the gall to call it a thesis) are also so fundamentally trivial that I cannot believe, for that same nanosecond, that any self-respecting "uni" would accept the project as worthwhile and worthy of what are presented as being degree granting institutions.
Occams' Razor strongly suggests to me that these threads are initiated by spotty 14-year olds who are just trolling and having "fun".

Pete
Title: Re: RANT ALERT: All the college / uni project questions
Post by: JimboZA on Jan 22, 2013, 05:32 pm
Wow... and I thought I was the cynical one!

I must say, I thought that this project (http://arduino.cc/forum/index.php/topic,143453) in its apparent form of being able to read if 5 sensors are open or closed and deciding what that binary pattern means is way too trivial for a final year engineering project.
Title: Re: RANT ALERT: All the college / uni project questions
Post by: retrolefty on Jan 22, 2013, 05:47 pm
Many good points. But I might add it's not always helpful to let such posters get your dandruff up to the point that you have to share your displeasure with the posters and/or their University. It's easy to prejudge and make assumptions and end up responding like so many posters use to do on the avrfrecks site and end up with the site gaining a reputation of being unfriendly and not willing to help new comers.

I share many of the negative comments posted here on many of the request for help, but I really work at just reading such posts/requests and moving on to what I might prejudge as a more worthy question or posting. Life is too short to spend being frustrated unless you really have a solution to share.

One token 'Grumpy' is enough for any one site.  :D

"Goggle Engineering" I love that term.  ;) At the refinery I worked at before retirement we referred to '"Smoking post engineering", and it wasn't always a negative term. I knew one engineer that said any time he got stuck with a problem he would go sit on the toilet for awhile and a solution would always seem to pop up or out as the case may be.  ;)

Lefty
Title: Re: RANT ALERT: All the college / uni project questions
Post by: JimboZA on Jan 22, 2013, 05:53 pm
Once again, my rant isn't about not being willing to help. It's about the state of engineering education systems that don't teach a problem problem approach* and which are at a level where telling the pattern from 5 switches is final year stuff.

*Although I suppose asking others for the answer is in itself a problem solving approach?
Title: Re: RANT ALERT: All the college / uni project questions
Post by: retrolefty on Jan 22, 2013, 05:57 pm

Once again, my rant isn't about not being willing to help. It's about the state of engineering education systems that don't teach a problem problem approach* and which are at a level where telling the pattern from 5 switches is final year stuff.

*Although I suppose asking others for the answer is in itself a problem solving approach?


So do have a solution to share to improve that state of the world in engineering education? That was my point. One can find no limit of things to complain about the world not being as good as it should be or as good as it once seemed to be.

Think happy thoughts, that's my solution.  :D

Lefty
Title: Re: RANT ALERT: All the college / uni project questions
Post by: JimboZA on Jan 22, 2013, 06:07 pm
Quote
So do have a solution to share to improve that state of the world in engineering education


Yes I do thanks, or at least I hope to become part of one at my current client if some things fall into place. I'm thinking happy thoughts about that...

Title: Re: RANT ALERT: All the college / uni project questions
Post by: Jack Christensen on Jan 22, 2013, 06:32 pm
Ah kids these days ;)  I have observed things that concern me with some of the local high-school kids. They seem to assume that they can do complex things, and easily, in areas where they've never even had their feet wet. Once they get into it, and find (gasp) learning curves, bodies of knowledge that they don't have, etc. etc. they get intimidated in a hurry and just back off. No concept of or interest in walking before you run, or investing time and effort. If it's tougher than learning to use a smart phone, then they really have to be motivated.

I blame it on a few things. One, not enough hands-on along the way. Two, our instant-gratification society where we aren't willing to wait for (or work at something for) more than ten minutes. Three, the sheer complexity of current every-day devices, they have become good enough that there is less hint of the complexity within. I wonder if today's engineering students have the time to really understand the foundations of computers and electronics they way we old-timers did because we had the distinct advantage of growing up with the technology. I told my daughter (CS degree) that she'll never understand computers the way I do because she's never toggled in a bootstrap loader on the front-panel switches. Of course that line got me a deer-in-the-headlights look :D

Last, there are the two kinds of people: Those that know they don't know, and those that don't know they don't know. I'm always on the lookout for the latter!

Just anecdotal stuff from my undoubtedly lopsided point of view. Exceptions abound, and I have no reason to think I'm describing the majority. I certainly hope not.
Title: Re: RANT ALERT: All the college / uni project questions
Post by: GoForSmoke on Jan 22, 2013, 07:09 pm
Possibly another category: the ones who paid others to do their homework and take the occasional test and managed to drift along with a low C average that finally get up to where they have to do something real. If Daddy can't afford a big grant then they may never become President so quick, go cry for help!

Title: Re: RANT ALERT: All the college / uni project questions
Post by: el_supremo on Jan 22, 2013, 07:56 pm
Quote
One token 'Grumpy' is enough for any one site.

I'll be the token cynic :-)

Pete
Title: Re: RANT ALERT: All the college / uni project questions
Post by: GoForSmoke on Jan 22, 2013, 08:27 pm
Did you win some kind of competition for token cynic?  ]:) When was it held anyway?  ]:D
Title: Re: RANT ALERT: All the college / uni project questions
Post by: el_supremo on Jan 22, 2013, 09:08 pm
I'm cynical enough to know that a competition for token cynic would be rigged against me. Thus, the preemptive strike.

Pete
Title: Re: RANT ALERT: All the college / uni project questions
Post by: GoForSmoke on Jan 23, 2013, 03:39 am
There's probably enough cynics here to form clubs and have a cynic's olympics.
IMO, years of dealing between machines and people should do it to anyone.
Title: Re: RANT ALERT: All the college / uni project questions
Post by: 3dprinter on Jan 25, 2013, 10:39 pm
Thumbs up for the post, reply #2, 10, 14 and 18. :D  In particular "Instant gratification" - yes, please. ;)
Title: Re: RANT ALERT: All the college / uni project questions
Post by: GoForSmoke on Jan 25, 2013, 10:49 pm

Ah kids these days ;)  I have observed things that concern me with some of the local high-school kids. They seem to assume that they can do complex things, and easily, in areas where they've never even had their feet wet.


That's what's been pumped into their heads since before they could reason, from cartoons to movies. Smart kids "just know what to do" without actually studying and doing a thing. You just walk up and presto-a-priori pull off the next miracle.
To be fair, that's probably how language, art and acting majors see science and engineering majors.. and who makes the shows?

Title: Re: RANT ALERT: All the college / uni project questions
Post by: focalist on Jan 26, 2013, 02:36 am
I was going to try to be more cynical, but I realized I would probably suck at it anyway and nobody would care even I could.
Title: Re: RANT ALERT: All the college / uni project questions
Post by: Osgeld on Jan 26, 2013, 03:46 am

Ah kids these days ;)  I have observed things that concern me with some of the local high-school kids. They seem to assume that they can do complex things, and easily, in areas where they've never even had their feet wet


like the recent radio PSA's encouraging kids to go to college (in my area)?

Some are worse than others, the latest a kid is playing a "war game" of some sorts online and is excited to make "MVP of the round!"

well ok, grats kid .. then he goes on to say "its that kind of skill, determination and hard work thats going to make me succeed in college!"

wait what?
Title: Re: RANT ALERT: All the college / uni project questions
Post by: GoForSmoke on Jan 26, 2013, 04:12 am
Would it be un-cynical to say at least they're better than climate change deniers?  :)  :smiley-red:
Title: Re: RANT ALERT: All the college / uni project questions
Post by: Jack Christensen on Jan 26, 2013, 04:25 am

like the recent radio PSA's encouraging kids to go to college (in my area)?

Some are worse than others, the latest a kid is playing a "war game" of some sorts online and is excited to make "MVP of the round!"

well ok, grats kid .. then he goes on to say "its that kind of skill, determination and hard work thats going to make me succeed in college!"

wait what?


Seriously? That's a PSA? Wow. Perhaps the Mayans were right. Some the things that people see as "accomplishments" are just incredible. That'll look just dandy on the CV, kid.
Title: Re: RANT ALERT: All the college / uni project questions
Post by: Osgeld on Jan 26, 2013, 05:15 am
my bad they dont say anything about hard work (and the kid only says determination ... hey its a radio ad my bad)

http://www.knowhow2go.org/partners/assets_files/files/1300207075.mp3

who knew, video games and break dancing are college skills
Title: Re: RANT ALERT: All the college / uni project questions
Post by: JimboZA on Jan 26, 2013, 05:20 am
Quote
who knew, video games and break dancing are college skills


What's wrong with these kids: don't they drink beer anymore?
Title: Re: RANT ALERT: All the college / uni project questions
Post by: greywolf271 on Jan 26, 2013, 05:50 am

I wonder if one day we will get a poster asking where to start on making a project that flashes an LED on pin 13 every second ?


When I was doing my engineering diploma at a Melbourne technical college (a long time ago), the lecturer told us a tale of this student who used many many NOP's for a delay loop. Sigh ! don't they RTFM, was my thought at the time.
Well, having read this thread, I guess he at least tried to be constructive.
Title: Re: RANT ALERT: All the college / uni project questions
Post by: GoForSmoke on Jan 26, 2013, 12:39 pm

Quote
who knew, video games and break dancing are college skills


What's wrong with these kids: don't they drink beer anymore?


And the hard stuff too and think nothing of it in quite the same way that everything else is easy.

Look up an "every 15 minutes" video. That's how often drunk driving wastes another life in the US alone. But hey, at least it's not guns!

A: I'm so thirsty! I need water.
B: So get some from the well.
A: What well?
B: It's right over there.
A: Wow, that must be 10 meters away!
B: Then you'd better get started.
A: Hey, I don't have a bucket.
B: Bucket's in the well.
A: And I don't have a cup.
B: Use your hands.
A: Why don't you get the cup and water for me? And some lemon for taste.
B: So long....


Title: Re: RANT ALERT: All the college / uni project questions
Post by: dhenry on Jan 27, 2013, 02:04 am
Quote
the lecturer told us a tale of this student who used many many NOP's for a delay loop.


Depending on the circumstance, it could be the smartest decision or the dumbest decision. Without knowing how the student arrived at this decision, it is impossible to assess.
Title: Re: RANT ALERT: All the college / uni project questions
Post by: modeller on Jan 27, 2013, 02:19 am

[rant]
I know forums are magnets for school / college / uni project help... that's the nature of the beast.

But I can't help but think that right now, there are too many threads started by people who literally don't know where to start.

I can kind of understand that with a school project: with so little knowledge it's easy to underestimate the skill level. I'm spending quite a bit of time helping one such poster right now, and am doing so (reasonably) gladly.
[/rant]


I made it through engineering and associated projects before the internet and forums even existed (1984).

I wonder how I did it?  :)
Title: Re: RANT ALERT: All the college / uni project questions
Post by: GoForSmoke on Jan 27, 2013, 04:16 am
Yeah but you're probably competent on your own.

Title: Re: RANT ALERT: All the college / uni project questions
Post by: JimboZA on Jan 27, 2013, 04:50 am
Quote
I wonder how I did it?


You probably used the library, the "web" of the "olden days"
Title: Re: RANT ALERT: All the college / uni project questions
Post by: AWOL on Jan 27, 2013, 06:05 pm
Quote
Did you win some kind of competition for token cynic?

Hey! Why wasn't I told?
I demand a recount.
Title: Re: RANT ALERT: All the college / uni project questions
Post by: retrolefty on Jan 27, 2013, 06:07 pm

Quote
Did you win some kind of competition for token cynic?

Hey! Why wasn't I told?
I demand a recount.


Wouldn't help, the recount would be rigged.

Lefty
Title: Re: RANT ALERT: All the college / uni project questions
Post by: modeller on Jan 27, 2013, 07:23 pm

Yeah but you're probably competent on your own.



Thanks, yes. I worked in engineering for my career (retired now) and have time to play with model RR and Arduinos. In my career I did a lot of data acquisition using LabView and related hardware.

I can actually answer a fair amount of questions I've seen here because a lot are covered by basic engineering and "common sense" but I don't want to be too out front since I'm a newbie here.

And it does seen that a fair amount of these projects seem to be something related to a college lab project or the like - I mean, what have I run across lately: an ethernet controlled coffee pot? Counting chickens and when they lay eggs? I don't mean to say they couldn't be useful "real-world" projects but they sure sound lab-related, something a professor would dream up as a challenge.

Back in the day we couldn't write an email or go to the internet for help or canned answers - no texting, no video chat, and many articles that were useful were just ripped out of the periodical so they didn't exist either. I'd either go to the library or sit at my desk with the related text books and come up with the answer myself, or working with a classmate. Ah the good old days.

I think it's a good resource to have forums for help but I wonder how many students take the time to work out the answer themselves these days?
Title: Re: RANT ALERT: All the college / uni project questions
Post by: GoForSmoke on Jan 27, 2013, 08:49 pm

I think it's a good resource to have forums for help but I wonder how many students take the time to work out the answer themselves these days?


There are many who will work at it with only a direction given and some 'landmarks'. I give them thumbs up.
The others hurt themselves by not learning even simple things. I can't help them. I can only make them more dependent.

What kicks me is how many of that second-type-above dweebs end up in 'management'.

Title: Re: RANT ALERT: All the college / uni project questions
Post by: GoForSmoke on Jan 27, 2013, 08:51 pm


Quote
Did you win some kind of competition for token cynic?

Hey! Why wasn't I told?
I demand a recount.


Wouldn't help, the recount would be rigged.

Lefty



Oh damn! REAL competition!
Title: Re: RANT ALERT: All the college / uni project questions
Post by: greywolf271 on Jan 27, 2013, 11:59 pm

Back in the day we couldn't write an email or go to the internet for help or canned answers - no texting, no video chat, and many articles that were useful were just ripped out of the periodical so they didn't exist either. I'd either go to the library or sit at my desk with the related text books and come up with the answer myself, or working with a classmate. Ah the good old days.

I think it's a good resource to have forums for help but I wonder how many students take the time to work out the answer themselves these days?


You know, this reminds me of the old "student using calculator debate". 
It's gonna make them morons yelled one camp
It'll increase the time they spend learning new things, yelled the other.
Seems like the old "my religion is better than yours" argument, only this time no religious wars.
You seem to have a yearning for the past, but the volume of information has changed since them.
Title: Re: RANT ALERT: All the college / uni project questions
Post by: modeller on Jan 28, 2013, 12:27 am

You know, this reminds me of the old "student using calculator debate".  
It's gonna make them morons yelled one camp
It'll increase the time they spend learning new things, yelled the other.
Seems like the old "my religion is better than yours" argument, only this time no religious wars.


No, not at all.

The calculator debate is not an appropriate analogy. In the case of a calculator, it simply makes the time it takes to solve the problem shorter - the fact being that the student still did the problem by themselves. The students knew how to multiply, divide, add, and subtract without the calculator. The calculator frees the mind to work on more in-depth parts of the problem.

In the case of the internet and forums, it's possible that they will be able to get others to do part of the work for them. In other words, it not only saves time, it replaces the mental work required by one person with ideas and solutions done by another. This is not in any way like your example with a calculator. The same thing happens with writing assignments these days - you know what plagiarism is don't you? Same thing. People get others ideas and substitute them for their own.

Look at it this way - why bust your a** for 8 hours trying to figure out a program when you can just go to a forum and ask somebody else to solve it for you? How many students are going to do the former instead of the latter? Just ask somebody how to turn on a coffee pot over ethernet and save all the problem solving. That's not like your calculator example at all.

What are we going to do in 50 years when a student can just ask an A.I system how to solve the problem from start to finish? Maybe there will be no need for higher education then at all ...

Quote

You seem to have a yearning for the past, but the volume of information has changed since them.


Not at all. I just stated I wonder how many students take the time to work out the answer themselves. I didn't imply the internet wasn't a good resource. I would never want to go back to the 1980's. You know what a TRS-80 is? If you don't Google it. I wouldn't wish that on anybody!  :) And saying "Ah the good old days" is just a humorous quip.
Title: Re: RANT ALERT: All the college / uni project questions
Post by: GoForSmoke on Jan 28, 2013, 12:58 am
There's calculators that do algebra now right up to calculus. Why bother memorizing indentities and the properties of equations when you can push a few buttons and have -an- answer? Especially when you don't know what you'll see and understand because you never did?

Why bother doing labs? Just look up the answers and fake a report. But then I watched the same basic thing happen in school lab groups where dummies copied off doer's and got that enough credit to balance D's and F's on tests. I understand that in colleges people paid others to take the tests too, back before PC's and maybe before I was born.

But will we get the average here? We won't see the ones who don't even try. We do see a lot of learners and helpers. So getting some slackers is only to be expected, and they're the ones I should feel sorry for. Why I don't.. I've known too many that end up in charge and the word then isn't slacker.  I know people who'd rather steal a dime than earn 10 bucks with the same effort.

Title: Re: RANT ALERT: All the college / uni project questions
Post by: greywolf271 on Jan 28, 2013, 01:45 am


You know, this reminds me of the old "student using calculator debate".  
It's gonna make them morons yelled one camp
It'll increase the time they spend learning new things, yelled the other.
Seems like the old "my religion is better than yours" argument, only this time no religious wars.


No, not at all.

The calculator debate is not an appropriate analogy. In the case of a calculator, it simply makes the time it takes to solve the problem shorter - the fact being that the student still did the problem by themselves. The students knew how to multiply, divide, add, and subtract without the calculator. The calculator frees the mind to work on more in-depth parts of the problem.

In the case of the internet and forums, it's possible that they will be able to get others to do part of the work for them. In other words, it not only saves time, it replaces the mental work required by one person with ideas and solutions done by another. This is not in any way like your example with a calculator. The same thing happens with writing assignments these days - you know what plagiarism is don't you? Same thing. People get others ideas and substitute them for their own.

Look at it this way - why bust your a** for 8 hours trying to figure out a program when you can just go to a forum and ask somebody else to solve it for you? How many students are going to do the former instead of the latter? Just ask somebody how to turn on a coffee pot over ethernet and save all the problem solving. That's not like your calculator example at all.

What are we going to do in 50 years when a student can just ask an A.I system how to solve the problem from start to finish? Maybe there will be no need for higher education then at all ...

Quote

You seem to have a yearning for the past, but the volume of information has changed since them.


Not at all. I just stated I wonder how many students take the time to work out the answer themselves. I didn't imply the internet wasn't a good resource. I would never want to go back to the 1980's. You know what a TRS-80 is? If you don't Google it. I wouldn't wish that on anybody!  :) And saying "Ah the good old days" is just a humorous quip.



"We stand on the shoulders of Giants", I thought Neil Armstrong said that, refering to how the Apollo program achieved what it did. I looked up Wiki. Blaise Pascal supposedly made that famous, but it actually goes further back in time.
You don't seem to get the analogy I'm making between the Calculator debate and using someone else's ideas.
Forget specifics, because if you bring specifics in, I can talk about using OpAmps as opposed to discrete component circuits. I can talk about microcontrollers as opposed to sequential digital logic blocks.
Get the idea ?
I fully understand what you mean about where will we be in 50 years time. I grew up learning electronics by collecting parts and building crystal sets, winding my own electromagnets, etc... not a pre-packaged Radio Shack kit. Programming on the SYM-1 (look it up).
Am I a better person for it ? I would like to think so. Then I read the blogs of some of the younger 20'ish engineers who have posted on this forum and elsewhere. I don't think we should worry, the engineering world is in good hands. (if only governments were made up of engineers and we shoot all the cowboy lawyers)
Title: Re: RANT ALERT: All the college / uni project questions
Post by: modeller on Jan 28, 2013, 01:57 am

"We stand on the shoulders of Giants", I thought Neil Armstrong said that, refering to how the Apollo program achieved what it did. I looked up Wiki. Blaise Pascal supposedly made that famous, but it actually goes further back in time.
You don't seem to get the analogy I'm making between the Calculator debate and using someone else's ideas.
Forget specifics, because if you bring specifics in, I can talk about using OpAmps as opposed to discrete component circuits. I can talk about microcontrollers as opposed to sequential digital logic blocks.
Get the idea ?


Sure. Thanks for the explanation.

Quote

I fully understand what you mean about where will we be in 50 years time. I grew up learning electronics by collecting parts and building crystal sets, winding my own electromagnets, etc... not a pre-packaged Radio Shack kit. Programming on the SYM-1 (look it up).
Am I a better person for it ? I would like to think so. Then I read the blogs of some of the younger 20'ish engineers who have posted on this forum and elsewhere. I don't think we should worry, the engineering world is in good hands. (if only governments were made up of engineers and we shoot all the cowboy lawyers)


I did much the same, I did the ham radio thing - morse code - and built many electronic gadgets. I hope you are right about the younger generation.

Now if I could only get that Arduino kit I've been waiting on I cold build my own ethernet coffe pot. 8)
Title: Re: RANT ALERT: All the college / uni project questions
Post by: GoForSmoke on Jan 28, 2013, 02:29 am
If I have seen further than others, it is by standing upon the shoulders of giants.
Isaac Newton

Do you think that's because he didn't bother working through the proofs of those who came before him?



Title: Re: RANT ALERT: All the college / uni project questions
Post by: AWOL on Jan 28, 2013, 09:27 pm


Quote
Did you win some kind of competition for token cynic?

Hey! Why wasn't I told?
I demand a recount.


Wouldn't help, the recount would be rigged.

Lefty


{Throws in towel. Mutters something about not being in the same league}