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Community => Bar Sport => Topic started by: Grumpy_Mike on May 18, 2014, 09:46 pm

Title: The beginners dilemma
Post by: Grumpy_Mike on May 18, 2014, 09:46 pm
The beginners dilemma
Title: Re: The beginners dilemma
Post by: JChristensen on May 19, 2014, 12:06 am
Haha, but also happens to some non-beginners too  ;)
Title: Re: The beginners dilemma
Post by: Un4gvn on May 20, 2014, 07:36 pm
My programming instructor once said to me, "It's a miracle that any of this stuff works".    :~
Title: Re: The beginners dilemma
Post by: SirNickity on May 20, 2014, 08:48 pm
I find that, after making changes to code, if it successfully compiles the first time, I probably messed up something in the Makefile.   :smiley-sweat:
Title: Re: The beginners dilemma
Post by: AWOL on May 21, 2014, 11:40 am
A lot of it still is pretty miraculous, when you think about it.

I've just done an Android build - the Linux C source alone (*.c plus *.h) runs to 168 000 files.
The build kept a quad-core (with hyperthreading) 2.8GHz Xeon busy for the best part of an hour (the time for a single core is about six hours).
And yet, at the end of an unimaginable number of complicated actions, I have a working image ready to flash into a device.
Title: Re: The beginners dilemma
Post by: Jantje on May 21, 2014, 11:51 am
It is lots easier to know why it doesn't work than to know why it works.

I'm still baffled by those things. For instance why does my sliding door slide lots easier when I spray "the hard to reach nearly fully enclosed wheels" with WD40?  :smiley-eek:
I mean I have to drag it before spraying and when I sprayed it I have to stop it smashing in the lock.  :smiley-eek:

Best regards
Jantje
Title: Re: The beginners dilemma
Post by: Grumpy_Mike on May 21, 2014, 12:58 pm
Just like this:-
Title: Re: The beginners dilemma
Post by: Jantje on May 21, 2014, 01:26 pm
yes, exactly
And both methods do work (short time) :-)
Title: Re: The beginners dilemma
Post by: SirNickity on May 21, 2014, 10:43 pm

Just like this:-


I am going to print a modified copy of this and hang it in my garage, with arrows pointing down to the requisite items on a shelf.
Title: Re: The beginners dilemma
Post by: Jantje on May 21, 2014, 10:59 pm


Just like this:-


I am going to print a modified copy of this and hang it in my garage, with arrows pointing down to the requisite items on a shelf.

]:) And what if someone switches the items  ]:D
Title: Re: The beginners dilemma
Post by: polymorph on May 21, 2014, 11:12 pm
WD40 is not oil. Too many people treat it like it is.
Title: Re: The beginners dilemma
Post by: MAS3 on May 21, 2014, 11:46 pm
Correct.
And the "WD40 company" thrives by that, as you will need to reapply it over and over again, until something is dissolved too much, and fails forever.
Title: Re: The beginners dilemma
Post by: TomGeorge on May 22, 2014, 03:17 am
Hi, now if it wasn't for the nuclear industry we might not have WD40.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WD-40

Tom....... :)

WD40    RP-7     one of many CRC products
Title: Re: The beginners dilemma
Post by: retrolefty on May 22, 2014, 03:53 am

WD40 is not oil. Too many people treat it like it is.


That's not what the Wikipedia link says.

"WD-40 is primarily composed of various hydrocarbons."
"The long-term active ingredient is a non-volatile, viscous oil which remains on the surface, providing lubrication and protection from moisture."

They state the MSDS sheet says "<25% petroleum base oil, presumably a mineral oil or light lubricating oil."

You have other information?

Title: Re: The beginners dilemma
Post by: polymorph on May 22, 2014, 05:04 am
My experience has been that there is so little "long term" ingredients in it, that for 99.99% of the purposes, it might as well not be there.

Why go to Wikipedia to read what someone else says about the MSDS?

http://www.wd40company.com/files/pdf/msds-wd494716385.pdf

I've seen hinges destroyed with it, because it washed out the original grease and what it left was insufficient. I've seen rotating bearings destroyed for the same reason. I've seen potentiometers and switches ruined by it.

It has its uses. But in my experience, it sucks as a lubricant except only temporarily.
Title: Re: The beginners dilemma
Post by: TomGeorge on May 22, 2014, 10:15 am
Hi, its great Water Dispersant/Displacer, hence  WD.

I've been told by mechanics that they regard it as a dry lubricant, great to get something stuck moving again, but no long term advantages compared to good oil or grease and regular maintenance.

Tom..... :)
Title: Re: The beginners dilemma
Post by: AWOL on May 22, 2014, 10:30 am



Just like this:-


I am going to print a modified copy of this and hang it in my garage, with arrows pointing down to the requisite items on a shelf.

]:) And what if someone switches the items  ]:D

That reminds me of the old joke about the couple who didn't know the difference between putty and vaseline.
All their windows fell out.
Title: Re: The beginners dilemma
Post by: Grumpy_Mike on May 22, 2014, 11:55 am
You mean:-

old joke about the newly wed couple who didn't know .......
Title: Re: The beginners dilemma
Post by: Un4gvn on May 22, 2014, 05:37 pm
Oh my god! What did they do with the putty?
Title: Re: The beginners dilemma
Post by: Un4gvn on May 22, 2014, 05:43 pm
I think that WD 40 is a manly scent that should be made into a cologne. Hoppe's #9 would be even better.
Title: Re: The beginners dilemma
Post by: SirNickity on May 22, 2014, 09:28 pm
Heh..  I showed the engineering flowchart to my GF.  Her reply:  "WD40 isn't a lubricant, it's a solvent."  I was so proud...   :smiley-sweat:

(Shortly followed by: "...what?  I know stuff.")
Title: Re: The beginners dilemma
Post by: GoForSmoke on May 23, 2014, 10:42 pm

For instance why does my sliding door slide lots easier when I spray "the hard to reach nearly fully enclosed wheels" with WD40?  :smiley-eek:


Collected dirt/dust that the WD cleans out.

Also don't oil bicycle chains except to soak them overnight once a year if you haven't stretched it past usefulness by then. For everyday or weekly cleaning, run the chain through a kerosene soaked rag. Oil on a chain catches dirt and grit that wears the bearings. This from someone that did stretch chains and snap teeth off cogs from a year or less of constant wear.
Title: Re: The beginners dilemma
Post by: polymorph on May 24, 2014, 12:29 am
Quote
Collected dirt/dust that the WD cleans out.


And that is, indeed, one of the things it is good for.

I had a car with a sticky seatbelt latch. OK when the weather was really dry, but bad when it was damp. Which was a lot of the time, 30 minutes south of Seattle, WA. Sniffing it told me it was some kind of cola spilled in it, probably multiple times.

So I hosed it out with 409 (water based cleaner/degreaser) on stream to wash it out, then WD40 to rinse out all the water. No oil added. Worked great.
Title: Re: The beginners dilemma
Post by: JChristensen on May 24, 2014, 01:15 am

Also don't oil bicycle chains except to soak them overnight once a year if you haven't stretched it past usefulness by then. For everyday or weekly cleaning, run the chain through a kerosene soaked rag. Oil on a chain catches dirt and grit that wears the bearings. This from someone that did stretch chains and snap teeth off cogs from a year or less of constant wear.


I've been using this stuff on my road bike and am pretty happy with it:
http://www.finishlineusa.com/products/chain-lubricants/dry-lube

A couple times a year,  I'll take the chain off, give it a thorough de-greasing and cleaning and and also clean what I can off the sprockets by working a rag between them. Just finished a fairly complete tear-down plus replaced the tires so it looks almost factory-new ATM :D
Title: Re: The beginners dilemma
Post by: Pedro147 on May 24, 2014, 09:07 am
First port of call, Wikipedia.
Second Snopes    http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/household/wd-40.asp   :D
Title: Re: The beginners dilemma
Post by: cyberteque on May 25, 2014, 04:17 am
When I worked in a gun shoppe, we used to get guys that went shooting "once in a blue moon", they'd come in with their pride and joy that had been sitting in the cupboard for months, the pre-storage treatment was WD-40/RP-7/CRC <something>.

The poor rifle would be gummed up tight as a<insert tight thing>

That wasn't too bad, you could normally free up the action with a good soak in turps or diesel.

The real worry was Greek or Italian blokes who had LIBERALLY applied olive oil!

Once the volatile bits of olive oil have evaporated what you're left with looks and behaves like epoxy!!

I had to boil a semi-auto .22 every day for nearly 2 weeks before I could get the thing apart!
Title: Re: The beginners dilemma
Post by: wizdum on May 25, 2014, 05:58 am

When I worked in a gun shoppe, we used to get guys that went shooting "once in a blue moon", they'd come in with their pride and joy that had been sitting in the cupboard for months, the pre-storage treatment was WD-40/RP-7/CRC <something>.

The poor rifle would be gummed up tight as a<insert tight thing>

That wasn't too bad, you could normally free up the action with a good soak in turps or diesel.

The real worry was Greek or Italian blokes who had LIBERALLY applied olive oil!

Once the volatile bits of olive oil have evaporated what you're left with looks and behaves like epoxy!!

I had to boil a semi-auto .22 every day for nearly 2 weeks before I could get the thing apart!


This is why my "once in a blue moon" gun is a Mosin Nagant. Whenever it sticks, I just have to hit it with a hammer. No solvents required.
Title: Re: The beginners dilemma
Post by: polymorph on May 26, 2014, 04:56 pm
Quote
19. Lubricates noisy door hinges on vehicles and doors in homes.
27. Lubricates and stops squeaks in electric fans.


Bullshot Crummond. In both of these instances, in my own experience and that of other people I've known, this is only true very temporarily. My father destroyed the door hinges on my car because, unbeknownst to me, he was hosing out my door hinges with WD40 every time I came to visit. I kept regreasing my hinges, not knowing why it kept disappearing, but WD40 washed out all traces of the grease and got them grinding again. After around a year of this (I don't know when he started doing this), I could only close the driver's side door if I lifted it up.

I've used it to lubricate squeaky door hinges, only to later have them get even worse. A couple drops of 3 in 1 oil fixed it.

I tried it on some stiff fan bearings. Sure, it clean them out, but left them basically dry. In a relatively short time, they started squalling. A little 3 in 1 oil extended the life. For those fan bearings, I've found a good light spray cleaner to work well, let dry, then followed by a few drops of 3 in 1 or sewing machine oil.

I've repaired electronics that people have sprayed WD40 into. Pots that have seized up, sliding pots especially. Cassette decks with swollen rubber and no oil in the bearings. VCRs that stink of WD40 because someone just opened the door and hosed it down due to a squeak, or because someone told them to clean their VCR heads that way.

It has its uses, but a lubricating oil it is not. It bugs me when people treat anything as a panacea.

BTW, if you have someone working on your furnace or ducting and you see them using cloth fabric "duct" tape (actually duck tape) on it, fire them on the spot because they don't know what they are doing. Hire someone else in, ask to see his/her roll of duct tape. Only if it is actual aluminum tape, have them check the other person's work and complete the repair.

What everyone calls "duct" tape is really duck tape, invented to make quick, temporary waterproof repairs to things like ammo cans and such for WW2. As anyone who has ever used it on anything outdoors knows, it breaks down quickly in heat and cold. As anyone who has used it or had someone else use it to tape down an extension cord knows, it becomes this sticky mess that is nearly impossible to entirely remove. That's why roadies use gaffer tape, even though it is much more expensive.
Title: Re: The beginners dilemma
Post by: polymorph on May 26, 2014, 04:57 pm
If there are no moving parts to stick, olive oil is great! I use it on my fencing blades, very thin coat.
Title: Re: The beginners dilemma
Post by: GoForSmoke on May 26, 2014, 05:07 pm
There is or was a duct tape used by people who made and installed air ducts. It is or was more permanent than the cheap cloth tape substitutes sold in retail stores today.

Gaffer's tape... now that's like gold, or at least it used to be.
Title: Re: The beginners dilemma
Post by: polymorph on May 26, 2014, 10:57 pm
Yes, real Duct tape is aluminum foil tape, not aluminum -colored- plastic/fabric tape.

(http://www.venturetape.com/images/P/1519CW-01.jpg)
Title: Re: The beginners dilemma
Post by: cyberteque on May 27, 2014, 02:11 am
On my bicycle I use chain wax, great stuff!

My "friend" needed to borrow my bike to fetch a puncture kit for his, so he took mine.

Came back, says "Your chain was squeaking, I lubed it with WD-40"

I was not happy
Title: Re: The beginners dilemma
Post by: GoForSmoke on May 27, 2014, 03:25 am
On the OT,

Since I was a child I have seen most people reach a certain age where looking words up in a close to hand dictionary becomes near-impossible. It's an attitude. Once you finish school, you become a completed adult. From there, looking things up is like admitting that you are not. And yes, I got told the "finished high school, know everything that matters" spiel many times back in the days.

Now we have the internet. Someone can be online asking for help and given links to fully prepared sites chock full of perfectly good and often illustrated explanations that they don't have to get off their... seats... to access, they still demonstrate a failure to even begin to absorb as much as a few terms.

"Here's a plate of food" gets "I can't use a fork, knife or spoon. Feed me.".

I'm happy to say that I have been able to help people not at all like that. If they get stuck and you give them a little help, they figure it out and get going. 

It's the others that get me.

But as I note, this is nothing new. It's just that with easy net access we have idiots where we did not before.

Title: Re: The beginners dilemma
Post by: cyberteque on May 27, 2014, 03:49 am

On the OT,

Since I was a child I have seen most people reach a certain age where looking words up in a close to hand dictionary becomes near-impossible. It's an attitude. Once you finish school, you become a completed adult. From there, looking things up is like admitting that you are not. And yes, I got told the "finished high school, know everything that matters" spiel many times back in the days.

Now we have the internet. Someone can be online asking for help and given links to fully prepared sites chock full of perfectly good and often illustrated explanations that they don't have to get off their... seats... to access, they still demonstrate a failure to even begin to absorb as much as a few terms.

"Here's a plate of food" gets "I can't use a fork, knife or spoon. Feed me.".

I'm happy to say that I have been able to help people not at all like that. If they get stuck and you give them a little help, they figure it out and get going. 

It's the others that get me.

But as I note, this is nothing new. It's just that with easy net access we have idiots where we did not before.




Google and wikipedia are dangerous things...
Title: Re: The beginners dilemma
Post by: TomGeorge on May 27, 2014, 04:21 am
Hi, my step daughter (now 25yo) came out of primary school (years 0 to 6) and still did not know what clockwise and anti-clockwise WAS!!! (Digital time taught)
Also she would take time to even work out  6 times 7, then when asked immediately after it,  7 times 6, she would take time and work it out AGAIN!!!! (They never had to memorise multiplication tables or anything,)

Tom...... :)

Title: Re: The beginners dilemma
Post by: GoForSmoke on May 27, 2014, 05:42 am
So major politician material then? Might rule the country some day?
Title: Re: The beginners dilemma
Post by: Henry_Best on May 27, 2014, 06:25 am

Hi, my step daughter (now 25yo) came out of primary school (years 0 to 6) and still did not know what clockwise and anti-clockwise WAS!!! (Digital time taught)
My father taught me "Turn to the right to make it tight." That works...until you find a left-handed thread!
Quote
Also she would take time to even work out  6 times 7, then when asked immediately after it,  7 times 6, she would take time and work it out AGAIN!!!! (They never had to memorise multiplication tables or anything,)
They're taught to rely on calculators, but if they miss-key, or use the wrong formula, they'll never know they've got the wrong answer!
Earlier today I wanted to convert US$42 into pounds Sterling. I know that $1 is approx. £0.65. Being lazy, I fired up the calculator and entered 42/0.65. Woops. That can't be right! Face-palm! I meant 42 * 0.65.  Would any one who had not been taught basic arithmatic have spotted that or would they have assumed the first answer was correct?
Title: Re: The beginners dilemma
Post by: Coding Badly on May 27, 2014, 06:35 am
On my bicycle I use chain wax, great stuff!


Ditto.  Soak in solvent.  Wash with soap and water.  Apply the wax.
Title: Re: The beginners dilemma
Post by: GoForSmoke on May 29, 2014, 11:23 pm

Also she would take time to even work out  6 times 7, then when asked immediately after it,  7 times 6, she would take time and work it out AGAIN!!!!


That has Left-Brain Fixation stamped all over it.
Too much emphasis on FOCUS which is what schools have done ever more since long ago.
When kids don't get out to play and interact with the world, it makes it worse.
When focus gets all the praise then that is what gets developed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFs9WO2B8uI
Title: Re: The beginners dilemma
Post by: Henry_Best on May 30, 2014, 05:59 am


Also she would take time to even work out  6 times 7, then when asked immediately after it,  7 times 6, she would take time and work it out AGAIN!!!!


That has Left-Brain Fixation stamped all over it.
Too much emphasis on FOCUS which is what schools have done ever more since long ago.
When kids don't get out to play and interact with the world, it makes it worse.
When focus gets all the praise then that is what gets developed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFs9WO2B8uI

Where Focus = lack of lateral thinking (How else can I do this?)
Title: Re: The beginners dilemma
Post by: GoForSmoke on May 30, 2014, 06:19 am
You know how you can be stuck on a code bug, get up for a break and see what you didn't when you get back? That is precisely because of fixation where the conscious "knows" the lines are right even when they're not.
If you get too good at focus it takes longer breaks to shake it off. And yes, that can get worse.
Title: Re: The beginners dilemma
Post by: Coding Badly on May 30, 2014, 06:46 am
You know how you can be stuck on a code bug, get up for a break and see what you didn't when you get back?


It's the elves (or not)...
http://boingboing.net/2006/08/10/seymour-cray-liked-t.html
Title: Re: The beginners dilemma
Post by: Jantje on May 30, 2014, 12:36 pm

You know how you can be stuck on a code bug, get up for a break and see what you didn't when you get back?


It's the elves (or not)...
http://boingboing.net/2006/08/10/seymour-cray-liked-t.html


Hmmm I've been digging a basement under my house for years ... Didn't find any elves....... I probably live on the wrong place..........Should I move??????
LOL

Jantje
Title: Re: The beginners dilemma
Post by: TomGeorge on May 31, 2014, 03:07 am
Hi, you need to goto a place called the SHIRE, find a big guy called GANDOLF and lttle guy, FRODO, they will get your elves for you, may take a while though, it involves a ring I hear.

(Don't be surprised if they look familiar to you, actors they get everywhere...... :~)

Tom.......(Not far from the SHIRE except for a little bit of water called "The Tasman Sea".. :)
Title: Re: The beginners dilemma
Post by: Henry_Best on Jun 03, 2014, 06:55 am

Hmmm I've been digging a basement under my house for years ... Didn't find any elves....... I probably live on the wrong place..........Should I move??????
LOL

Jantje
You haven't dug deep enough...   :)
Title: Re: The beginners dilemma
Post by: Jantje on Jun 03, 2014, 11:22 am


Hmmm I've been digging a basement under my house for years ... Didn't find any elves....... I probably live on the wrong place..........Should I move??????
LOL

Jantje
You haven't dug deep enough...   :)

I know. I hit kwelm and I couldn't handle that.  8)
Jantje
Title: Re: The beginners dilemma
Post by: TomGeorge on Jun 03, 2014, 12:46 pm
Hi, I won't be digging in my back yard, if I go right through to the other side of the earth I'd come out in the middle of the North Atlantic.

Tom..... :)
http://www.antipodr.com/
Title: Re: The beginners dilemma
Post by: AWOL on Jun 03, 2014, 02:05 pm

Hi, I won't be digging in my back yard, if I go right through to the other side of the earth I'd come out in the middle of the North Atlantic.

Tom..... :)
http://www.antipodr.com/

That's a shame - the usual advice in response to the question "When should I stop digging down?" is "When you smell feet".
Title: Re: The beginners dilemma
Post by: GoForSmoke on Jun 03, 2014, 02:39 pm
It gets kind of hot long before that. I knew some coal miners. The way it's described, I wouldn't be surprised to see graffiti saying "Dante was here".