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151  Forum 2005-2010 (read only) / Bar Sport / Re: Closed (ouch) or Open Hardware new Uno's ? on: September 30, 2010, 04:20:05 pm
They can sell all the chips, they can get their hands on, but they are barred by the USB-IF rules from including the PID unless they are manufacturing the product.

As eight stated earlier, thats the standing of the USB-IF not the Arduino team, the VID/PID can only be used by the manufacturer who is licensed to the original, there is no "subleasing"

BOZ
152  Forum 2005-2010 (read only) / Bar Sport / Re: Closed (ouch) or Open Hardware new Uno's ? on: September 29, 2010, 03:08:48 pm
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So, who is for an open source replacement for USB?  Grin

Ill open a kickstarter on that within the hour

Send money, cheesepuffs and and enough beer or booze to stun 8 grown individuals stat
153  Forum 2005-2010 (read only) / Bar Sport / Re: Closed (ouch) or Open Hardware new Uno's ? on: September 29, 2010, 02:53:24 pm
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After exchanging an email with the USB-IF.  It seems that it is impossible

Ayup.

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All products containing a certain VID must be manufactured by that vendor.

Ayup

So how fast was the cease and desist letter?

BOZ
154  Forum 2005-2010 (read only) / Bar Sport / Re: Closed (ouch) or Open Hardware new Uno's ? on: September 29, 2010, 09:38:06 am
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Lol. So it appears mate... Cheesy

You must have had the tarot cards out to call this one so quick. Wink

Not really my wife and I have made a nice little living teaching just such group dynamics and team building techniques (including their downfalls and hidden cycles) in a very niche and high strung entertainment market, so the deck was stacked  8-)

It s just funny how common the principles are in every walk of life and group no matter the topic or makeup.
155  Forum 2005-2010 (read only) / Bar Sport / Re: Closed (ouch) or Open Hardware new Uno's ? on: September 29, 2010, 09:30:32 am
As to the MCP2200, I stand corrected, it is a similar situation, I had assumed the problems had been cleared in the 8u2, and yes it is a a couple of hot fixes and and inf, versus a driver install( FTDI ).
156  Forum 2005-2010 (read only) / Bar Sport / Re: Closed (ouch) or Open Hardware new Uno's ? on: September 28, 2010, 11:18:11 pm
The MCP2200 is a good chip for one off or personal use but it has known driver issues on several windows platforms. So its fine where you have control of the operating system, but it really would add a whole bunch of support issues in in a board public distribution.

With all the connection issues already one of the single most prolific issue postings in regard to the Arduino on the board, I wouldn't want to add it to a larger mix in a board I was selling.


157  Forum 2005-2010 (read only) / Bar Sport / Re: Closed (ouch) or Open Hardware new Uno's ? on: September 28, 2010, 07:34:50 pm
And so it begins..........time will tell the tale


Hey eight I wasn't that many steps ahead after all GRIN
158  Forum 2005-2010 (read only) / Bar Sport / Re: Closed (ouch) or Open Hardware new Uno's ? on: September 28, 2010, 05:53:54 pm
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Do you see yourself sticking with the FTDI for the forseeable future?

Yeah in review I think the FTDI is going to hang in in only a slightly less prominent position for quite some time, probably years even.

I have already ordered my first chunk of 8u2s and to be honest it just added another diversification to my product line, barebones, FTDI, LUFA vs the previous barebones, USB classification.

And just like the Arduino team I hope to save some parts cost in the long run if the supply chain ever stabilizes, although I do have an advantage there as I can see ATMEL corporate headquarters from my evil mountain top lair/hackerspace and have an in  ;D, but the new part of the circuit will pretty much drop right in where the ftdi already is so no big either way.

So the short answer is yes I see the FTDI sticking but the diversity will come when people start adopting UNO specific 328s because that is where the real fork is for me.

BOZ
www.musheen.com
159  Forum 2005-2010 (read only) / Bar Sport / Re: Closed (ouch) or Open Hardware new Uno's ? on: September 28, 2010, 05:22:48 pm
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We're not talking about using Arduinos here, we're talking about building them. And if, as a builder, you adopt the 8u2 as your transfer chip, you're going to need something in the VID/PID combination.

Sorry I was wearing two hats and did'nt make it clear which one was speaking when in that post ;D I was just trying to point out the futility of a community ID, because it was being discussed as IF PID could be dished out on demand if it was bought by a community.

Sorry if I was too many steps ahead, thats one of my big flaws/advantages :o (more flaw than advantage most times GRIN)

I to am a a derivative board builder and actually held off development on a final build/release for almost month ( it was slated to go to pcb the day they started teasing something cooking ) to make sure there wasn't some dramatic change, saturday I woke up and thought I had lost months worth of work and that it was going to screw my new to me biz model (open source hardware) and I, like some people here are still maintaining, thought there goes the baby with the bath water they just closed the door just as I got started.

But an hour later, after going over specs and looking into the available info I knew what should be common knowledge at this point, this is just a concept panic and not a real world problem or issue.

The FTDI chip in my circuit ( same in everyone elses and most Arduinos ) had the same capability of using VID/PID to lock feature sets by identity ( with a few extra components ) The 8U2 has those components as part of the package built in.

That is the only difference in reality even to board builders, because is STILL NOT GOING TO BE USED to lock things up, just because it is there AND CAN lock out features or close source trees or change the fact that it is open source hardware Massimo himself has said its not going that route and yet the panic continues.  

Even though the 8U2 is MORE OPEN and programmable and even has a hardware access built into the board to program away anything the Arduino team puts in it, the thought panic continues.

The only thing this adds up to is the Arduino team decided to take and use an available piece of hardware in the new chipset and set a NEW STICKER in hardware, serving the same function as the made in Italy sticker and the new silkscreen graphics on the boards, no board builder except them can use any of those things, and would have to have their own or not have any at all. You do not HAVE to have your own VID/PID any more than you have to have your own patent, registering it is just another form of identification. You can build away and operate with out the registration, you just need to not conflict with an existing one, ON THE SAME COM CHAIN, not even the whole world, just your little part of the world or any of your end users part of the world if your a board builder, thats thousands of combinations of difference to not worry about.

But the panicing and discussion of "solutions to stop what the Arduino team has done to us mentality" in much of the reasoning is completely the opposite and counterproductive to the nature of the Open Hardware and Open Source point and in general is just confusing the hell out some people and scaring them just when they should be getting excited and enjoying the new fruits of the Arduino community and the Arduino development Teams efforts.

Ok that was longer and rantier than it should have been and I will shut up now :smiley

BOZ
160  Forum 2005-2010 (read only) / Bar Sport / Re: Closed (ouch) or Open Hardware new Uno's ? on: September 28, 2010, 04:25:45 pm
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So, lets go programming a Ethernet Bootloader

Yup already done and almost here. From the new hardware announcement...

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under Ethernet Hardware
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We have incorporated some of the feedback we got from the last ethernet shield and have created a new bootloader that lets you upload code to the board via TFTP and discover them on the network via a broadcast protocol.

Sound much like an ether version of the Illuminato

It could discover every Illuminato board plugged into itself and program it in a hive mind fashion, master to slave and back again.

BOZ
161  Forum 2005-2010 (read only) / Bar Sport / Re: Closed (ouch) or Open Hardware new Uno's ? on: September 28, 2010, 04:16:22 pm
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Yeah. Well as a community I still think it'd be pretty easy especially if you consider the companies such as seeedstudio making boards who may be willing to fork out a bit for this (or more likely they'll buy their own VID

And there is the rub because any community effort to get a community controlled ID, which isnt needed at all to continue to use the Arduino the same way it has been used all along, will fall victim to the same panic driven questions that have been raised here only more so, because it will also be somewhat politically charged (user groups always are)

Hey I put up more money then he did, why do they get that choice over this choice, hey they are now a commercial company instead of the guy that was tinkering around he should pay back the people that bought it so he can still use his one or two ids while we still have all the rest.

Hey why is so and so in control of the data, heyt someone needs to take control of the database from so and so hes not answering email, so and so dosent like me and wont give me an id for my competing so and so.

Who is going to administer it, why does so and so get to have it at his site, because now so and so now gets the extra traffic for his shop so and so on and so on and so on and so on and so on and so on and so on and so on and so on and so on and so on and so on and so on and so on and so on and so on and so on and so on and so on and so on and so on and so on and so on and so on.........ad nauseum
162  Forum 2005-2010 (read only) / Bar Sport / Re: Closed (ouch) or Open Hardware new Uno's ? on: September 28, 2010, 03:25:56 pm
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Hehe well I am surprised this thread hasn't been 404d yet  Grin Nahh only kidding. They'll just be hiding away reading all these comments planning the response.

Nope I m willing to bet they are either not paying attention to it any longer ( because its been overanswered and moot ) or just waiting for the embers to die down and fade away and there is no more to be said ( because its been overanswered and moot ) ;D
163  Forum 2005-2010 (read only) / Bar Sport / Re: Closed (ouch) or Open Hardware new Uno's ? on: September 27, 2010, 03:36:38 pm
Not only is it open and programmable, but the UNO hardware has a built in pad set for a ICSP header to program it, so you don't even need to hack anything (except solder the header) to get at it.
164  Forum 2005-2010 (read only) / Bar Sport / Re: Closed (ouch) or Open Hardware new Uno's ? on: September 27, 2010, 03:22:41 pm
P18F4550:
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i have bought an official duemilanove and many official shields, i have also bought a cheap Mega board from china because at the time that is what my budget allowed, but i stll support the Arduino effort and comment on this forum

This is all the Arduino team is trying to support.

There are some people that have sold knockoffs with cheap parts as Offfical, which means as a user its a crap shoot on quality.

The Identifier just adds one more sticker basically to the made in italy sticker but this time its in hardware in the 8u2 chip.

 Some are afraid of losing what they have,  so they are (needlessly) panicking thinking this means closing the door of openness.

Some of the people think that because the chip COULD be used to lock people out that it will be and they think that because it is what THEY would do.

There are also the ones who are afraid its going to happen because they have seen other capitalist mechanisms of protectionisms ( dating back even hundreds of years ) and afraid its going to happen here.

And there are even others who's reaction are like my first gut response, well it was good while it lasted, there goes a great thing to greed.
 
But none of the concerns are on the mark, including my first knee jerk feeling, The UNO is even more open then previous Arduinos

The additions really are MORE OPEN, the FTDI chip that they replaced is a black box chip, no control of whats inside, the 8u2 is programmable and the LUFA (Lightweight USB Framework for AVRs) is open source and fully programmable for expanded project support.

So while I realize Internet time is very fast, and thats alot of what is happening in the chicken little syndrome, in real world time the Arduino just made its next step and is better and more open than ever before.

BOZ
www.musheen.com
165  Forum 2005-2010 (read only) / Bar Sport / Re: Closed (ouch) or Open Hardware new Uno's ? on: September 27, 2010, 02:31:39 pm
The only real difference is that your sketch communicating on serial will probably have to take into account the faster (115800) baud rate that the 8U2 operates at.

Relax people it COULD be used for evil, but so COULD a FTDI chip, it has the same lockout capability if you wanted to use it.

The only problem this new feature set presents is a very slight annoyance in that there is a bootloader fork.

The Arduino team were right going this route, but it means UNO compatible 328 bootloader (optiboot) chips and Duemilanove compatible bootloader chips will not work interchangably in UNO and Duemilanove boards (with out chip re loading).

My first reaction when I heard the hardware specs were some of the same cynicism, I was jumping to "oh well they have a right to make some money and close it" but the second I heard that the loader on the 8U2 is LUFA http://www.fourwalledcubicle.com/LUFA.php

I went "WOOHOO OPEN SOURCE LIVES"

Relax and wait for more info, I guarantee you its the same Arduino you have come to rely on, with a little more mainstream (non hobby) street cred.

The Arduino just got a hair cut and hid the tats, but it's still not the man, MAN.

BOZ
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