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Author Topic: Your opinion on piracy?  (Read 19510 times)
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Here it is 100% legal to download and watch movies and listen to music
As it is in most jurisdictions, as long as you make adequate recompense to the owner of the work.
Apple have been running such a service for years.
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As it is in most jurisdictions, as long as you make adequate recompense to the owner of the work.
Apple have been running such a service for years.
Nope, 100% free of charge

lol wrong link again... sharing files isn't allowed... just downloading and for personal use

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Polish_Copyright_Law

Article 23.
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1. It shall be permitted to use free of charge the work, which has been already disseminated for purposes of private use without the permission of the author. This provision does not authorize to build constructions according to other authors' works in the field of architecture and architecture and town planning, and to use the electronic databases constituting works unless this refers to one's own use for scientific purposes, which is not related to any profit-gaining activity.
2. The scope of the private use shall cover the use of single copies of the work by a group of persons staying in a personal interrelation with each other, including in particular blood relation, kinship or a social relationship.


So is piracy stealing ? well.. it is for you but not for me  smiley-cool

Laws are just... laws - set of rules written down by some people who are often lobbied by some pressure groups.


No offence but I think some of your laws are ridiculous and outdated - which essentially makes people lose respect for the law in general... like copyright laws or age of consent set at 18 - 'YAY! let's jail 92% of total population'
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« Last Edit: August 16, 2012, 08:33:02 am by kerimil » Logged

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When I refer to "piracy" in this post, I mean not-for-profit piracy (people downloading/uploading copyrighted works). For-profit piracy is something entirely different, and there are very clear laws against it in pretty much every first-world nation.

I don't condone piracy, but I believe the response from rights holders is often worse. We have people getting raided by SWAT teams because their users may have uploaded a song. Nations around the world are passing laws that essentially give the music and movie industry the ability to shut down anyone they want, without cause. Those same organizations are refusing to allow low-cost digital distribution methods in piracy havens like India and China, because they are afraid the content will be pirated (great logic there...). They have created a situation where the average person knows they are doing wrong, but they are hurting an evil corporation (that shoots dogs and arrests grandmothers).

Piracy is a response to a new medium. Rights holders still think they are living in a time where they have total control over distribution, in a world where their product is infinitely copy-able, at no cost. We need a new business model, and crappy DRM is not the answer (no DRM survives contact with the user?). The best example of this that I have seen is Steam. Its a nice, non-invasive DRM system for video games that offers many useful features.

Basically, the solution isn't to try to arrest every pirate. Instead, try to give people a reason to purchase your software. Piracy can never be stopped.

Also, to those of you that are very anti-piracy: Ever used a VCR?
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Also, to those of you that are very anti-piracy: Ever used a VCR?

Yes, I did. Your point is?
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Any other argument that says the rightful owner should be ripped off  doesnt make sense.

Yes, but the other side of the coin is, the rightful purchaser being ripped off.

For example, I bought Diablo 3 yesterday. Paid full price. Have an official box and everything. Even posted a photo of the mascot I got with it. But because of the DRM I can't play it. It took an hour of "server busy" before I could "connect" ... to a server for a single-player game. Then after playing for a while I get random "disconnected from server" during gameplay. But I shouldn't need a server. One quest I tried 5 times and every time got disconnected at the completion, and thrown back to where I was before. Another quest I just can't complete.

This is the consumer being ripped off, not the owner of the digital "rights". But what do they care? I've paid for it. The money's in the bank.

The notion that the owner of the copyright is "in the right" and the purchaser is "guilty until proven innocent" violates various principles of law that we have fought for 1000 years to establish.

You are not being ripped off... for a multitude of reasons.  The biggest is that the software was provided to you 'as is' without any warranty, ie. caveat emptor, and yet you chose to purchase it.  The second reason is that the software has a license agreement, which provides all the details of the terms of the agreement...  Which can be read prior to purchase.

That agreement limits your 'rights' to only what is specified in the agreement.

As to the comments, about content producers being ripped off by the publishers...  Again, no one forces you into those relationships.  Publish/distribute your own content if you want to avoid such rip-offs.

As to piracy, people (all people) will steal, cheat, lie...  It sucks, but we still do it...  We just don't like when others do it to us...
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You are not being ripped off... for a multitude of reasons.  The biggest is that the software was provided to you 'as is' without any warranty, ie. caveat emptor, and yet you chose to purchase it

Well, no. In Australia consumers have a statutory right to expect goods to be as described, and be fit for the purpose for which they are purchased, amongst other things. These statutory rights cannot be excluded, for example by an "agreement" which is inside the box.

Surely a game that you cannot play, when you want to play it, is not fit for the purpose for which you bought it?

In my case, yes I had heard about needing to be online to verify my identity. What I hadn't heard was:

  • Their servers would be down, thus not allowing my identity to be verified.
  • That the game would periodically crash, because the connection to the servers was temporarily lost.
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Glad to hear Australia has such consumer protection laws. Corporations in the US handily hide behind license "agreements" that can't be read until the package is opened and not returnable and even if one does read them cannot be deciphered without the help of an attorney. Unfortunately this tactic is not limited to games but is also a feature of credit agreements, insurance policies and many other products of more vital importance than games. Caveat emptor is a useful principle but only when transparency exists. But the "free market" proselytizers seem to always resist such transparency.
Perhaps if we spent less time playing games and more time examining the realities of the current system we would choose lawmakers that work to create a more fair playing field. Intellectual property laws have become entirely perverted and need to be changed. The concept of "corporate personhood" ensures they won't.
I embrace the opensource movement because it exists as an alternative to corporate control and I see it as one of the few bright spots in our future.
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Also, to those of you that are very anti-piracy: Ever used a VCR?

Yes, I did. Your point is?

A VCR is a device for piracy. It allows you to make illegal copies of movies and TV programs, and then watch them whenever you want. Your ability to watch the video multiple times, skip commercials, or watch the video outside of the air time, is circumventing the copy protection put in place by the cable/satellite company. You are also making an illegal copy of a copyrighted work, and making that available to others (if you allow friends/family members to watch with you). You are breaking the law in the United States and many other countries. In addition to that, it is not uncommon to see people selling these illegal copies of movies and TV shows at yardsales and junk stores.

Yet suddenly, doing this exact same thing in the digital age is somehow worse and requires taxpayers to give billions of dollars to corporations.
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I think the word "piracy" needs to be carefully defined.

If I own a VCR (or more likely these days, a hard-disk recorder) and record a program, either a sports event, the News, or some movie, and then watch it at a time that suits me (perhaps I do shift work, or have guests that evening) then so doing does not deprive the TV network, or anyone else, of a single dollar.

Compare to, say, a book. Once bought I can read it when I like. Now if a TV channel screens a movie, obviously it has to be screened at a particular time, that time may not be convenient for the consumer. There is no harm in time-shifting. It might be different if I then gave the video to friends to watch it, but really that is no different to lending my book to friends, and no-one would argue that lending a book to a friend is pirating the book.
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I think the word "piracy" needs to be carefully defined.

If I own a VCR (or more likely these days, a hard-disk recorder) and record a program, either a sports event, the News, or some movie, and then watch it at a time that suits me (perhaps I do shift work, or have guests that evening) then so doing does not deprive the TV network, or anyone else, of a single dollar.

Compare to, say, a book. Once bought I can read it when I like. Now if a TV channel screens a movie, obviously it has to be screened at a particular time, that time may not be convenient for the consumer. There is no harm in time-shifting. It might be different if I then gave the video to friends to watch it, but really that is no different to lending my book to friends, and no-one would argue that lending a book to a friend is pirating the book.

The only reason you can get away with lending a movie, is because the movie industry hasn't found a way to manufacture cheap GPS units that electrocute you if you try to leave your house with it. There are laws being drafted in the US right now that will outlaw time-shifting. It is considered worse than piracy (because they havn't found a way to link it to drugs or terrorism yet). The used game market is also a few steps away from being outlawed. I'm beginning to think we don't actually own anything we buy anymore.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2012, 02:25:43 am by wizdum » Logged

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What is this "ownership" of which you speak? Nowadays, after outlaying dozens or indeed hundreds of dollars your ability to keep using what you purchased is dependent on some sort of connection with a server, or not changing the PC you installed it on, or not losing the original disk, or a host of other things.
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A VCR is a device for piracy. It allows you to make illegal copies of movies and TV programs.

Possibly true, but it also allowed me to make legal copies of films and TV programmes.

Time-shifting is entirely legal in the UK, under a specific exclusion in the copyright act. You are free to watch as many times as you like, but you are not allowed to retain indefinitely. Ad-skipping is also entirely legal. During the period that I owned a VCR, I bought a couple of hundred pre-recorded tapes, but only a few blanks for time-shifting. I also had a Hard-disk/DVD recorder for a while, and I don't recall ever burning a DVD with it, but it meant I could replace two boxes with one. Now I have a Sky+ box (like a Tivo). Its entire purpose, above a basic satellite receiver, is time-shifting. We record stuff, we watch it at a time that suits us, then we delete it. My partner likes to watch history programmes. I can't stand them. She records them and watches while I'm at work. It's all perfectly legal, and the platform is sold for that usage model.

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You are also making an illegal copy of a copyrighted work, and making that available to others (if you allow friends/family members to watch with you).

No. I'm not, and if my family and friends want to watch, that's still just as legal as it would have been if they were here when the programme was originally broadcast.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2012, 08:55:42 am by dxw00d » Logged

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A VCR is a device for piracy. It allows you to make illegal copies of movies and TV programs.

Possibly true, but it also allowed me to make legal copies of films and TV programmes.

Time-shifting is entirely legal in the UK, under a specific exclusion in the copyright act. You are free to watch as many times as you like, but you are not allowed to retain indefinitely. Ad-skipping is also entirely legal. During the period that I owned a VCR, I bought a couple of hundred pre-recorded tapes, but only a few blanks for time-shifting. I also had a Hard-disk/DVD recorder for a while, and I don't recall ever burning a DVD with it, but it meant I could replace two boxes with one. Now I have a Sky+ box (like a Tivo). Its entire purpose, above a basic satellite receiver, is time-shifting. We record stuff, we watch it at a time that suits us, then we delete it. My partner likes to watch history programmes. I can't stand them. She records them and watches while I'm at work. It's all perfectly legal, and the platform is sold for that usage model.

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You are also making an illegal copy of a copyrighted work, and making that available to others (if you allow friends/family members to watch with you).

No. I'm not, and if my family and friends want to watch, that's still just as legal as it would have been if they were here when the programme was originally broadcast.

Then you are lucky you live in a country that still has sane copyright law.
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In my case, piracy is a Pareto-efficient outcome compared to the realistic alternative: I don't get the product and the publisher doesn't get any money. Here's an example:

http://store.elsevier.com/Encyclopedia-of-Ecology-Five-Volume-Set/isbn-9780444520333/

The Encyclopedia of Ecology set costs 2,845 USD.

OK.

Two scenarios can come out of this.

  • I don't download this set. Elsevier gets no money.
  • I download this set. Elsevier gets no money.

So, either way, Elsevier gets $squat. But only in the latter case do I get to use this encyclopedia set. That's why it's Pareto-efficient: Elsevier is made no worse off by my piracy.

Now, if it were a poor starving artist losing out, I might think a bit differently, but these academic publishers will live, easily. Also, they shouldn't garner too much sympathy given the way they behave. Since Elsevier is the object of my example:

Elsevier Caught Again: Published Ghost Written, Industry Supporting Articles As Scientific Resesarch

If you want to, consider what I'm doing punishment.

And, on that note, my e-books blog is now up to 600 posts. (I have an automated uploading system but Google only allows 50 non-captcha posts in a 24 hour period, whereof the multiple of 50.) PROBLEM?
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I think diesel is too expensive, but I don't drill into the tanks of the petrol station
This is old but worth a read for a chuckle
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2002/oct/09/martinwainwright
I believe you can use 2500 litres of bio dielsel for personal consumtion before having to pay duty on it (so i've ready anyway)
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