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Author Topic: what about debugging?  (Read 5916 times)
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Professionals need better tools than amateurs like 16yo schoolgirls, since they have time constraints and get paid to make stuff quickly and cleanly (not quickly and dirty  smiley-cool ).

I smiled when I read that, because the implication is that, somehow, if you pay for something you get a better product.

I have some software running on my Mac (I'm not going to name it because the exact product isn't relevant) which I find doesn't do exactly what I want, or if it does, I don't understand how to make it do it. I paid good money for this, so I expect professional support.

I joined their forum, and posted a polite message describing my problem, and asking for a solution. On July 3rd 2012. That's a week ago. Not a single response. Nothing.

Meanwhile, on this forum here, for the "free" software, you generally get a response within an hour, if not 10 minutes.

And as for "dirty" ... I have stuff running here (on the Arduino) in this house. It runs for months without rebooting. It works, and works perfectly. I would not characterize it as "dirty".
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Perhaps go and get a professional tool, like the Atmel development environment? I tried to use that with the latest version (AVR Studio 5 at the time) and found it would not go into parallel programming mode on the AVR Dragon. So I submitted a support ticket in May this year. No response of any kind from Atmel. And then the ticket was quietly closed.

So, yeah, go buy your expensive development environments. They better do exactly what you want, because if they don't ... forget about getting support.



Ticket 639270: "Cannot do parallel programming with Dragon"
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And as for "dirty" ... I have stuff running here (on the Arduino) in this house. It runs for months without rebooting. It works, and works perfectly. I would not characterize it as "dirty".

Why only months? Isn't it reliable?

I'm not being cheeky, just wondering. I have an ARM based system running linux and it the only time I can recall it rebooting without me telling it to was when there was a massive thunderclap directly overhead.

My installation was designed with much though to making it lightning proof, so the short coming is mine.

Shouldn't Arduino based hardware run indefinitely rather than just "for months" ?

BTW I agree that paying does not always guarantee support.
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I don't think you connected the grounds, Dave.
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With as little memory as an Arduino, if the code makes it over the millis rollover, there's a pretty good chance that nothing else is going to stop it, unless you've got a memory leak that drips only every rollover.
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Jimbo:
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We mustn't lose sight of Arduino's provenance and original purpose, which (at least as I see it) was to let a bunch of lay folk write code and get it into a processor in a bit of a quick-n-dirty way so they could make stuff happen in the real world.


Yes, I mentioned Visual Basic above in this thread. VB allowed people who could not program to press a few buttons and make a .EXE , the results were so disasterous that I evenually refused to waste any more time installing and evaluating anything based on the VBRUN runtime libs.

Making an easy entry path into making things work will be very inspiring and certainly get a lot more people hacking and experimenting. I hope the similarity with VB ends there ...

The idea of making it quick and easy to get some results and the hardware abstraction provided by the libraries are great features. But for more serious development I'd prefer full debugging capabilities.

Anyone able to confirm my idea that using an atmega8 or 128 in a UNO should allow full debugging with ATJTAGICE II ?



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IDE for Microsoft Visual Studio and Atmel Studio 6.1, optional USB Debugger
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Visual Micro has a debug tool in beta for Visual Studio. It supports all arduino projects (memory allowing). The debugger uses hardwareSerial, softwareSerial or fastSerial. Break/pause can be optionally enabled along with many other useful features. In all cases you don't have to write a single line of debug code.

Arduino debugger video here

The video demonstrates first time use of both Visual Micro and the Debug Tools. The first task is simply to increase the width of the visual studio arduino boards list which most people do not realise can be done smiley You will see that when the debug session begins the debugger windows are moved and docked. Visual Studio will remember the positions of the tool bar controls and tools windows so you only need to do this once. Optionally, when moving tool windows you can hold down the CTRL key to prevent them from docking.

The first part of the video shows moving the user interface around and the last part shows a normal compile, followed by a debug compile with various trace messages. Break/pause is not enabled for this example which means that all breakpoints become tracepoints. (Sorry no sound)

It's our first video and its not the best smiley Better youtube videos to follow shortly.
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Arduino for Microsoft Visual Studio Pro and Atmel Studio 6.1 http://www.visualmicro.com
Arduino Debugger http://www.visualmicro.com/post/2012/05/05/Debug-Arduino-Overview.aspx

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Why only months? Isn't it reliable?

I'm not being cheeky, just wondering.

You are joking, I hope. It isn't that it crashes every 3 months. It's just that the power tends to go off about that often.
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Yes, that looks like a pretty fully featured debugger. I don't really want to change OS tho' .
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By the late 80's gdb was already fully working in many embedded environments
Um.  For x86 and 68000 class CPUs...

Since Arduino generates standard C/C++/elf/etc, you can use standard AVR debug tools like AVR Studio and JTAGICE/Dragon/simulator and such.  That'd be the "professional" solution (just throw cash at the problem.)  AVRAICE is a shim that ties gdb to JTAGICE if you prefer the gnu debug tools.

Atmel apparently doesn't document their debugging features, which is sorta sucky of them, IMO.  Otherwise ArduinoISP could support some debugging features.

The Visual Micro "invasive, software based" debugging sounds interesting.  It'll be interesting to see how well it works. Unlike x86 and 68k, the AVR doesn't have a lot of the support needed for a good debugger, and having code in flash where you can't swap in breakpoint instructions "on the fly" is a pain.

I always thought "IDE" referred to the integration of the editor and the compiler?  I guess they've pretty much always had debuggers as well.
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  I guess they've pretty much always had debuggers as well.


Yeah, that's what Wikipedia says.... must be true if it's in Wikipedia  smiley-cool
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But for more serious development I'd prefer full debugging capabilities.

Oh, aye. Serious development.

In the early days, when whole banking systems, and insurance systems, were written without IDEs and debuggers. I suppose they weren't serious.
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My early programming was for British Shipbuilding (Vosper Thornycroft), using COBOL/CICS/DL1. There was no IDE (only XEDIT, and batch compilation) and very little scope for debugging tools on System 360/370, so it was all about watching what came out for what went in, and ploughing through dump listing.
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My early programming was for British Shipbuilding (Vosper Thornycroft), using COBOL/CICS/DL1. There was very little scope for debugging tools on System 360/370, so it was all about watching what came out for what went in, and ploughing through dump listing.

Only debbugging aid I had when learning Fortran on a 370 was someone helping you get your punched cards back in order when you dropped them....
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Fortunately, I started just after they took the card readers off. VM-CMS made life a lot easier. Rexx made life even easier, when it arrived.
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A maximum of four batch runs a day very quickly hones your attention-to-detail and debugging skills.

Oh yes, and inserting NOPs into your hand-assembled PAL-8 programs, to allow you to slip in extra instructions later.
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