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Topic: Not TRYING to start a flame war honest. (Read 5 times) previous topic - next topic

wanderson

One thing I have noticed over the years is that you can usually tell what language a programmer first learned from the style of their code in their current language.  Certain styles/idioms(or in the modern parlance patterns) are common to some of the original languages used--in particular Pascal and FORTRAN...

When hiring a programmer I alway request to see examples of their code in two divergent language families.  If the two examples show the 'native' style for that language I make the assumption that the programmer at least has the experience in enough languages to be flexibile and has "really" learned the language... rather than simply using the language paradigm they are used to in a new language.
New true random number library available at: http://code.google.com/p/avr-hardware-random-number-generation/

Current version 1.0.1

AWOL

It would take a keen eye to spot a CESIL programmer   :)
"Pete, it's a fool looks for logic in the chambers of the human heart." Ulysses Everett McGill.
Do not send technical questions via personal messaging - they will be ignored.

wanderson


It would take a keen eye to spot a CESIL programmer   :)


Do you know of anyone whoose FIRST language was CECIL? :)
New true random number library available at: http://code.google.com/p/avr-hardware-random-number-generation/

Current version 1.0.1

AWOL

"Pete, it's a fool looks for logic in the chambers of the human heart." Ulysses Everett McGill.
Do not send technical questions via personal messaging - they will be ignored.

wanderson


CECIL?
Never heard of it.


Sorry, I meant CESIL, CECIL was an early OO language... :)
New true random number library available at: http://code.google.com/p/avr-hardware-random-number-generation/

Current version 1.0.1

AWOL

Quote
Do you know of anyone whoose FIRST language was CECIL?

Well, CESIL was the first language I learned, but not the first I earned a living by.
That honour would fall to COBOL.
"Pete, it's a fool looks for logic in the chambers of the human heart." Ulysses Everett McGill.
Do not send technical questions via personal messaging - they will be ignored.

GoForSmoke

Charles Moore had the first Forth core in use aiming telescopes 1959. That predates Dartmouth BASIC by 5 years.  ]:D

I find it harder to express logic in English than in Code.
Sometimes an example says more than many times as many words.

AWOL

Obviously Dartmouth had the better marketing department.
"Pete, it's a fool looks for logic in the chambers of the human heart." Ulysses Everett McGill.
Do not send technical questions via personal messaging - they will be ignored.

justjed


(OTOH, I have written systems programs for a mainframe in Lisp.  (well, modified, actually.  FLAIR replace the Tops20 file archiver daemon with a MacLisp program that FTPed the files to unix systems (which had much cheaper disks), and they needed it updated for a new version of Tops.))


So, you've used TECO?
... it is poor civic hygiene to install technologies that could someday
facilitate a police state. -- Bruce Schneier

justjed


One thing I have noticed over the years is that you can usually tell what language a programmer first learned from the style of their code in their current language.


When I first started writing FORTRAN, my boss looked at my code and said, "Well I guess you can write COBOL in any language if you really try." However, given the evolution of my IT career, I suspect you wouldn't spot anything like that now. Upon consideration, I suspect it's rather difficult to make  PL/SQL look at all like Macro-11 either. I keep thinking I need to learn Python, but the biggest barrier is how to write it like C! :) Is there a Python pre-processor that lets you use braces, and reformats with correct space-nesting?
... it is poor civic hygiene to install technologies that could someday
facilitate a police state. -- Bruce Schneier

GoForSmoke

He didn't call it Forth until 1968. It was supposed to be Fourth but the name space only allowed 5 letters so the u was dropped.

Forth is not for people who need lines to color inside.  ;)
It's almost the opposite to Pascal, capability without controls.

It is OOP though I dunno just when creates-does (builds-does in some versions) appeared. Fact is that until I found C++ I never wrote in another language capable of self-extension.

It is stack-oriented. You define words by what is expected on the stack, the word name, and what is left on the stack.
That helps loads in development, it's very intuitive and fast to code once you understand the basics. I kept a box of 3x5 cards with definitions for my last Forth work.
I find it harder to express logic in English than in Code.
Sometimes an example says more than many times as many words.

westfw

Quote
So, you've used TECO?

Yes.  In tops10, UTexas (v124), and ITS varieties.
I still have the source code for the UTexas version.


wanderson


Quote
Do you know of anyone whoose FIRST language was CECIL?

Well, CESIL was the first language I learned, but not the first I earned a living by.
That honour would fall to COBOL.


For both of those you have my sympathy. :)
New true random number library available at: http://code.google.com/p/avr-hardware-random-number-generation/

Current version 1.0.1

wanderson


He didn't call it Forth until 1968. It was supposed to be Fourth but the name space only allowed 5 letters so the u was dropped.

Forth is not for people who need lines to color inside.  ;)
It's almost the opposite to Pascal, capability without controls.

It is OOP though I dunno just when creates-does (builds-does in some versions) appeared. Fact is that until I found C++ I never wrote in another language capable of self-extension.

It is stack-oriented. You define words by what is expected on the stack, the word name, and what is left on the stack.
That helps loads in development, it's very intuitive and fast to code once you understand the basics. I kept a box of 3x5 cards with definitions for my last Forth work.



Forth, at least as I remember it, didn't qualify as object oriented, while it does (and did) have extensibility that in and of itself doesn't meet all (or even most) of the requirements of an OO language at least in its early versions, which are all I am familiar with.  It was solidly a procedural language

BTW, the first OOP language is generally accepted to be SIMULA 67.  I think there was a reason that the early OO languages were developed for the purpose of creating models or simulations, while all of their contemporary general purpose languages were procedural in implementation.  When simulating real systems, the idea of 'objects' just fits the paradigm...
New true random number library available at: http://code.google.com/p/avr-hardware-random-number-generation/

Current version 1.0.1

wanderson


Charles Moore had the first Forth core in use aiming telescopes 1959. That predates Dartmouth BASIC by 5 years.  ]:D


Publish or perish...  Apparently he never published his work, unlike Dartmouth, or even tried to produce a commercial product.  We have only his word, essentially, that whatever he was doing then bears any resemblance to the Forth that he produced for commercial use in the early 70's...

While the language had some advantages for use on limited resource machines, I believe that it suffers the same fundamental fault that it shares with RPN calculators.  Its design is to make it easier to allow a computer to parse/process the language, rather than mimic the way most people think.
New true random number library available at: http://code.google.com/p/avr-hardware-random-number-generation/

Current version 1.0.1

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