Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5   Go Down
Author Topic: Not TRYING to start a flame war honest.  (Read 3852 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Global Moderator
UK
Offline Offline
Brattain Member
*****
Karma: 238
Posts: 24298
I don't think you connected the grounds, Dave.
View Profile
 Bigger Bigger  Smaller Smaller  Reset Reset

Quote
Its design is to make it easier to allow a computer to parse/process the language, rather than mimic the way most people think.
Maybe Polish people find it easier to think that way.
Logged

"Pete, it's a fool looks for logic in the chambers of the human heart." Ulysses Everett McGill.
Do not send technical questions via personal messaging - they will be ignored.

Pittsburgh, PA, USA
Offline Offline
Faraday Member
**
Karma: 58
Posts: 3991
I learn a bit every time I visit the forum.
View Profile
 Bigger Bigger  Smaller Smaller  Reset Reset

Then you've never heard of the Forth Interest Group or any of the major software written in Forth? Or read the books or used or are aware of the distros and updates, etc. There's even Forth running in satellites. I worked for a vendor back in the 80's, we made corporate jet systems training carrels that ran on Forth. That was a fun job, I got to attend high-end aircraft systems schools and fly full-motion sim boxes.

Fact is there is a large worldwide Forth community of both professionals and hobbyists. But what colleges want to teach is reliance on training wheels and having lines to color inside. Forth probably scares the diddles out of those clowns.

You have to learn it to understand. Sort of that it's like trying to explain sex to virgins.

Charles Moore had the first Forth core in use aiming telescopes 1959. That predates Dartmouth BASIC by 5 years.  smiley-twist

Publish or perish...  Apparently he never published his work, unlike Dartmouth, or even tried to produce a commercial product.  We have only his word, essentially, that whatever he was doing then bears any resemblance to the Forth that he produced for commercial use in the early 70's...

While the language had some advantages for use on limited resource machines, I believe that it suffers the same fundamental fault that it shares with RPN calculators.  Its design is to make it easier to allow a computer to parse/process the language, rather than mimic the way most people think.
Logged

Examples can be found in your IDE.

SF Bay Area (USA)
Offline Offline
Tesla Member
***
Karma: 106
Posts: 6364
Strongly opinionated, but not official!
View Profile
 Bigger Bigger  Smaller Smaller  Reset Reset

Does modern Forth have data structures?

The fact that C and C++ have such poor run and compile-time type and range checking terrifies a fair number of people (thus Ada, etc)
Forth must make them catatonic!
Logged

Rural Arizona
Offline Offline
Edison Member
*
Karma: 7
Posts: 1711
Incorrigible tinkerer
View Profile
 Bigger Bigger  Smaller Smaller  Reset Reset

Maybe Polish people find it easier to think that way.
Only the reverse ones.
Logged

Pittsburgh, PA, USA
Offline Offline
Faraday Member
**
Karma: 58
Posts: 3991
I learn a bit every time I visit the forum.
View Profile
 Bigger Bigger  Smaller Smaller  Reset Reset

You make your data structures using creates-does which has both compile and runtime behaviors. It's the same basic capability as C++ classes, just older and not so formalized.

Honest, I learned OOP at home on a VIC-20 using an 8k HES (Human Engineered Software, IIR a Swedish company and hey Thanks Guys!) Forth cartridge back in 1983. The whole language, interpreter plus block editor fit in 8k. I was able to make useful programs in the 5k RAM of the VIC with it. What I learned from that changed my style in the Basic I used at work (their choice, not mine!) for the better.

C++ is capable of doing what Forth does and is way more mainstream job-wise. I like C++ about as much and any more I know C++ better. I can easily find C++ libraries for a lot of things.

Here's some Forth libraries in an ongoing project to make a set of scientific libraries for Forth:
http://www.taygeta.com/fsl/scilib.html
It can give you an idea of what some Forth looks like. smiley-confuse When you don't know the language and the role of the data stack, it looks like obfuscation. smiley-mr-green LOL, C/C++ newbs feel the same way about C++!
 
Logged

Examples can be found in your IDE.

Dallas, Texas
Online Online
God Member
*****
Karma: 3
Posts: 716
Old, decrepit curmugeon
View Profile
WWW
 Bigger Bigger  Smaller Smaller  Reset Reset

Then you've never heard of the Forth Interest Group or any of the major software written in Forth? Or read the books or used or are aware of the distros and updates, etc. There's even Forth running in satellites. I worked for a vendor back in the 80's, we made corporate jet systems training carrels that ran on Forth. That was a fun job, I got to attend high-end aircraft systems schools and fly full-motion sim boxes.

Fact is there is a large worldwide Forth community of both professionals and hobbyists. But what colleges want to teach is reliance on training wheels and having lines to color inside. Forth probably scares the diddles out of those clowns. have to learn it to understand. Sort of that it's like trying to explain sex to virgins.

Charles Moore had the first Forth core in use aiming telescopes 1959. That predates Dartmouth BASIC by 5 years.  smiley-twist

Publish or perish...  Apparently he never published his work, unlike Dartmouth, or even tried to produce a commercial product.  We have only his word, essentially, that whatever he was doing then bears any resemblance to the Forth that he produced for commercial use in the early 70's...

While the language had some advantages for use on limited resource machines, I believe that it suffers the same fundamental fault that it shares with RPN calculators.  Its design is to make it easier to allow a computer to parse/process the language, rather than mimic the way most people think.

Yes, I have heard of them, in fact I did a fair bit of Forth programming in the 70's and 80's.  Times when the computers had a much more limited set of resources than today.  The counter intuitive nature of Forth and the ease with which a typical Forth programmer creates his own version of the language and thereby complicates the ability of someone else to maintain that code are reasons why Forth is in such disuse.  The later were also early problems with real object oriented languages (even more so), but practices evolved with those languages that encouraged better design.

I have no doubt that some folks still use Forth for products, just as some folks still use COBOL and FORTRAN.  Not sure what that is evidence of though... smiley
Logged

New true random number library available at: http://code.google.com/p/avr-hardware-random-number-generation/

Current version 0.7.2

Pittsburgh, PA, USA
Offline Offline
Faraday Member
**
Karma: 58
Posts: 3991
I learn a bit every time I visit the forum.
View Profile
 Bigger Bigger  Smaller Smaller  Reset Reset

Counter intuitive to you and now you make claims where before you showed ignorance.
This isn't an election.

Logged

Examples can be found in your IDE.

Santa Fe
Offline Offline
Full Member
***
Karma: 1
Posts: 201
View Profile
 Bigger Bigger  Smaller Smaller  Reset Reset

Quote
Re: Not TRYING to start a flame war honest.

How we doing so far?
Logged

Dallas, Texas
Online Online
God Member
*****
Karma: 3
Posts: 716
Old, decrepit curmugeon
View Profile
WWW
 Bigger Bigger  Smaller Smaller  Reset Reset

Counter intuitive to you and now you make claims where before you showed ignorance.
This isn't an election.

Counter intuitive--period.  If for no other reason (and there are others) than the use of RPN within the language.  As I stated, and which is widely accepted, RPN was created because it is easier for the computer to process (which is also why Forth was designed the way it is).  We don't teach kids to do math in RPN, the standard rules for mathematic, ie. algebraic notation...  Give a third grader an algebraic calculator and they have no difficulty using it even if they have never seen one before.  The same can not be said for an RPN calculator.  That is what is meant by counter-intuitive...

Ignorance is a lack of knowledge, since I have used Forth extensively (albeit fourty years ago) it doesn't apply; however, claiming Forth is an object oriented language does show an ignorance of what object oriented means...

And to illustrate another opinion from a supporter of the language here are a few key extracts to provide support for my previous statements;

"Forth is a stack-based procedural programming language that was invented by ..."

"Then as now, Forth is an excellent choice of programming language/programming environment/operating system for small computer systems ..."

"At that time programming tools for small computer systems were rather crude and computer memory was very expensive. C compilers were not yet widely available, BASIC was still fully interpreted and therefore very slow, and Fortran compilers were too expensive for many. Programming during this time period usually meant assembler language or worse yet machine language."

Source: http://www.drdobbs.com/article/print?articleId=207801675&dept_url=/java/
Logged

New true random number library available at: http://code.google.com/p/avr-hardware-random-number-generation/

Current version 0.7.2

Pittsburgh, PA, USA
Offline Offline
Faraday Member
**
Karma: 58
Posts: 3991
I learn a bit every time I visit the forum.
View Profile
 Bigger Bigger  Smaller Smaller  Reset Reset

First you're saying he never published, etc, which is BS, it never got anywhere, more BS.
Now you have years of time in it but it's so long ago you forgot.
And even though 1000's have found it very intuitive they're all wrong because you don't.

Hearsay and opinions from a few picked sources... what an absolute authoritah you are.
Make your straw man, paint it however you like, cut it all you want, it still changes no facts.
I've heard from school dropouts on how science is wrong and their BS is worth the same.

Logged

Examples can be found in your IDE.

Dallas, Texas
Online Online
God Member
*****
Karma: 3
Posts: 716
Old, decrepit curmugeon
View Profile
WWW
 Bigger Bigger  Smaller Smaller  Reset Reset

First you're saying he never published, etc, which is BS, it never got anywhere, more BS.
Now you have years of time in it but it's so long ago you forgot.
And even though 1000's have found it very intuitive they're all wrong because you don't.

Hearsay and opinions from a few picked sources... what an absolute authoritah you are.
Make your straw man, paint it however you like, cut it all you want, it still changes no facts.
I've heard from school dropouts on how science is wrong and their BS is worth the same.

1) I said that there is (and you haven't provided any) no evidence that Forth is what he was using in the late 50's.  The record indicates that Forth as a language was first published in the late sixty's/early seventies.  You haven't offered anything but insults to counter that.

2) I said I used Forth a lot (not for 'years'), but that was in the late 70's/early 80's until something better became available.  You do realize that falsely paraphrasing someone else's statements is another argumentative fallacy?  Very similar to the ad hominems you seem to like using...

3) You claim it is an object oriented language, yet you have provided no evidence (again only insults)...

4) " even though 1000's have found " is hardly a " large worldwide Forth community of both professionals and hobbyists"  

5) And again, like 'strawman' I doubt you understand what the word 'intuitive' means.

Make your straw man, paint it however you like, cut it all you want, it still changes no facts.

Interesting.  Since you don't seem to know what the term means,

I've heard from school dropouts on how science is wrong and their BS is worth the same.

THIS is a straw man argument...


Oh, and since you want MORE evidence of the basis for my position:

"A procedural programming language without type checking, ", http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forth_%28programming_language%29

"Elizabeth Rather is the co-founder of FORTH, Inc. and is a leading expert in the Forth programming language. Elizabeth was a colleague of Chuck Moore back when he worked at NRAO in the early 1970s. During his development of Forth, she became the second ever Forth programmer.", http://www.forth.com/resources/evolution/index.html

"Moore developed the first complete, stand-alone implementation of Forth in 1971", http://www.forth.com/resources/evolution/evolve_2.html

"Many attempts have been made to create an object-oriented Forth", http://www.bradrodriguez.com/papers/oofs.htm

"This paper describes an extension to a standard Forth-79 or -83 system which enables programming with objects organised into classes (with sub-class inheritance).", http://www.forth.com/archive/jfar/vol3/no3/article3.pdf

"Classic Forth organizes data and functions in a manner similar to C; for a given data structure, uniquely named functions ("words" in Forth) are invoked to operate on a given data structure. A class of programming languages known as object oriented instead define a smaller set of generic function names; the correct code for a specific type of data structure is called when the generic function is invoked on the specific data structure. ForthOS offers facilities for programming in this object oriented fashion. ", http://www.forthos.org/oo.html
« Last Edit: August 21, 2012, 05:46:15 pm by wanderson » Logged

New true random number library available at: http://code.google.com/p/avr-hardware-random-number-generation/

Current version 0.7.2

CO, USA
Offline Offline
God Member
*****
Karma: 4
Posts: 710
View Profile
 Bigger Bigger  Smaller Smaller  Reset Reset

Quote
Re: Not TRYING to start a flame war honest.

How we doing so far?

wanderson and goforsmoke are coming along nicely. Maybe we could add a poll about Vi vs. Emacs. But them some Teco user would show up, and I'd have to mention EDT. Also, Gnome sucks ... long live Fvwm!
Logged

... it is poor civic hygiene to install technologies that could someday
facilitate a police state. -- Bruce Schneier

SE USA
Offline Offline
Faraday Member
**
Karma: 40
Posts: 3783
@ssh0le
View Profile
 Bigger Bigger  Smaller Smaller  Reset Reset

I prefer nano, Id rather edit text and be done with it
Logged


SF Bay Area (USA)
Offline Offline
Tesla Member
***
Karma: 106
Posts: 6364
Strongly opinionated, but not official!
View Profile
 Bigger Bigger  Smaller Smaller  Reset Reset

Quote
We don't teach kids to do math in RPN
Maybe we should.   have you seen those math "puzzles" that pop on facebook now and then" "Evaluate: 6-1*0+2/2", and how many people get them wrong ("hey, I typed it just likes it's shown into my calculator and that's what I got...")

Forth reminds me of Lisp.  It is no longer interesting that "the compiler (or interpreter) can be easily implemented in a small amount of code space, after which the rest of the language can be written in itself."  (ok, it's still interesting.  It is no longer remotely important.)

Quote
You make your data structures using creates-does
Using create-does, or using a facility written using create-does?  A quick web-search shows several different structure implementations.  I dunno; it just seems that there are things that should be defined parts of the language, immutable and standardized, and things you can implement as user extensions, and that Forth does it differently than any other language.  (so does C, BTW, in not defining an IO as part of the language.)

Logged

Rural Arizona
Offline Offline
Edison Member
*
Karma: 7
Posts: 1711
Incorrigible tinkerer
View Profile
 Bigger Bigger  Smaller Smaller  Reset Reset

But what colleges want to teach is reliance on training wheels and having lines to color inside.
Bull: what colleges want to teach engineers are tools and practices that support the development of reliable and maintainable systems.  And Forth is not one of those tools.

Never has been. Never will be.

There was a time when it was a useful hack to compensate for the lack of target system resources, just as COBOL was a way to compensate for limited resources for HLL compilation.

But that time is long gone, and it's downright foolish to put up with their downsides when their upsides no longer exist.
Logged

Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5   Go Up
Jump to: