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Topic: This should please the IDE haters (Read 3 times) previous topic - next topic

Osgeld

#15
Oct 23, 2010, 04:13 am Last Edit: Oct 23, 2010, 04:19 am by Osgeld Reason: 1
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@ OSGELD... to my silly eyes... I see WAY more commonality between Processing and Arduino than differences... so, while I understand that you do not...  it leaves me confused that you feel that way.


because other than the ide and the 2 callbacks there is zero connection between the 2, heck remove the IDE and it can be brotherhood to LOVE2d or any other simplified scripting system

I have been spending A LOT of time in processing trying to get it nailed down, the only connection I feel tween the 2 is the somewhat irksome IDE. I do not think of processing for physical computing, like I dont think of arduino for crossplatform and web multimedia development

yes you can combine the 2, but you can combine arduino with anything, I can go into the windows command interpreter right now, and with a batch file watch the serial port and have windows do actions based on data from the arduino, I wouldnt say "based on windows" though  ;)

if you look at the arduino IDE source there is even very little to do with processing there, yes it ties into the IDE a little, it has to to make it work together, but again this is all done in vanilla java, the meat and potatoes of what happens could in theory be made in a (large and pita) batch file, as its just compiling the "core" frosting layers of code along with avrgcc

it uses the work of the processing developers for the user interface, its not processing, it doesn't tie in at all (crap if it did I would be having a lot easier of a time with my current led matrix, cause instead of writing my own routines I could just use void draw() )
http://arduino.cc/forum/index.php?action=unread;boards=2,3,4,5,67,6,7,8,9,10,11,66,12,13,15,14,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28,29,30,86,87,89,1;ALL

Senso

All this "physical computing" really grind my gears!(Peter Griffin (tm))...
Its all about a bunch of people blinking some leds and moving one servo or two and all of a suddent everyone is a very smart and creative artist that understands a hell load of electronics, and can even get expositions all over the world just to see their physical computed "art" fail in the first 12h, then there is processing, how can anyone bloat java anymore than it already is?
Cam'on, I always thougt that it was impossible, but noooooo...
How can a suposselly MIT guys mess up with a plain vanilla lib to use SPI, or a bootloader that can do a butlload of things, less really working to program a chip, its as easy as copying and pasting code from app-notes or even the atmega datasheet, that and all the buffers for everything, serial? Throw 128 at it, I2C? Oh yeah 32bytes, SPI? Who knows how much it will need..
I'm not a professional programmer but even I could things a little bit better, this is a little micro-controller not a desktop pc with Gb of Ram to spend in everything, even the code could be optimized a lot, but no, more than 2K to blink a led  :o
Who cares, my arduino is a physical computer, all the people in the world using Z80's, PIC's, plain AVR's, 8051, and all the others MCU's are just strangers to the thing, because today YOU can have a master degree about how to blink a led.
And really selling books about arduino, wasn't it open source, free and all those blinky words?

pwillard

So I guess what I'm hearing is that there is a core group that cannot "grok" the need for the legacy connection to Processing and it's limp interface standards and would prefer it if we had something like AVRSTUDIO with Arduino compatibility?

(note: My attitude about processing is that both Arduino and Processing are essentially simplified Java... that's why I see so much similarty.)


Nachtwind

Hm, moving away from this piece of software is a good turn.. because now finally the arduino team can make IDE features that break the syncronity with Processing to finish 1.0...

Yet still i am no fan of either the IDE nor Eclipse - my favorite is AVRProjectIDE... It should be as simple as that: The Arduino releases should be downloadable in flavors: One with IDE and one bare to be included in the environment one uses the most.. (would also save us the trouble to redownload Java the 10th millionth time)
Believe me, Mike, I calculated the odds of this succeeding against the odds I was doing something incredibly stupid[ch8230] and I went ahead

Osgeld

#19
Oct 23, 2010, 07:14 pm Last Edit: Oct 23, 2010, 07:14 pm by Osgeld Reason: 1
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So I guess what I'm hearing is that there is a core group that cannot "grok" the need for the legacy connection to Processing and it's limp interface standards and would prefer it if we had something like AVRSTUDIO with Arduino compatibility?


what your hearing form me is there is zero reason to tolerate the wonky ide other than thats what they want to use, there is no technical reason that it could not be done any number of ways becuase it has no ties with processing

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(note: My attitude about processing is that both Arduino and Processing are essentially simplified Java... that's why I see so much similarty.)


yea but [glow][size=18]arduino is NOT JAVA![/size][/glow] its c / c++, its compiled against a gcc compiler, you can write plain up avrgcc code and it doesn't care, you cant write however

Code: [Select]
List<String> ls = new ArrayList<String>(); // 1

http://arduino.cc/forum/index.php?action=unread;boards=2,3,4,5,67,6,7,8,9,10,11,66,12,13,15,14,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28,29,30,86,87,89,1;ALL

westfw

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arduino is NOT JAVA

Yeah, but minimalist java looks an awful lot like minimalist C++, and the Arduino IDE/Editor is more-or-less exactly the Processing IDE/Editor.

I think it's primarily the editor we're talking about here; I don't hear a lot of complaints other about the Arduino IDE (well, no debug or sim, but that's more than an IDE problem.

It's a credit to the Processing folk that their IDE moved smoothly to a whole different language, but it's still pretty much the same editor/etc...

I'm not wildly enthusiastic about Eclipse.  The "getting started project" for the MSP430 Launchpad (which has an eclipse-based IDE) was still setting up Eclipse parameters when Arduino users were staring happily at a blinking LED.  It's REALLY HARD to be both "powerful" (according to experience engineers) and "simple" (for new users) at the same time.

Osgeld

#21
Oct 24, 2010, 06:37 am Last Edit: Oct 24, 2010, 06:51 am by Osgeld Reason: 1
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Yeah, but minimalist java looks an awful lot like minimalist C++, and the Arduino IDE/Editor is more-or-less exactly the Processing IDE/Editor


you know what? there are a thousand languages that "look like C" but are not, and NO again have you used processing in a extensive bit? its nothing alike, bacon and eggs go through the tutorials of processing you will see how NOT alike they are, crap man linden script looks more like C and java and its neither, its just a scripting language used for a "game",  blasted! I can add semicolons and make lua look like C, doesnt mean it is an any way or form, its a set of global functions over top of avrgcc

frosting, nothing else, and totally does not matter what language the editor was made in, its the oldest trick in the book, mimic the popular language syntax to ease users into your new language

java more or less looks like C, so what its NOT C end of story

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I think it's primarily the editor we're talking about here; I don't hear a lot of complaints other about the Arduino IDE (well, no debug or sim, but that's more than an IDE problem.


the editor IS the IDE, there is nothing special about it, its a wonky text editor shoehoned to batch file the compilation process

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It's a credit to the Processing folk that their IDE moved smoothly to a whole different language, but it's still pretty much the same editor/etc...


not really, its a wonky bad IDE editor that processing people bi+ch about, processing crew make apologies  for and man its a text editor, didnt we figure that out a long time ago?

Quote

I'm not wildly enthusiastic about Eclipse.  The "getting started project" for the MSP430 Launchpad (which has an eclipse-based IDE) was still setting up Eclipse parameters when Arduino users were staring happily at a blinking LED.  It's REALLY HARD to be both "powerful" (according to experience engineers) and "simple" (for new users) at the same time.


neither am I, but really honestly, there are better solutions out there that do not mandate "HARD CORE" nor "MOSTLY WONKY" for text editors

and since there are better solutions, and no ties to processing other than connecting to the editor do we need "somewhat" broken basic text editing in 2010?


just wait, I am almost at a 50% mark not even trying making a better IDE that does everything the "ide" does but doesnt fk-up, is not bloated (by over 100MB on the windows version and by 2mb on *nix versions ) and has some "advanced" features (like OMG replace) and is cross platform capable on LUA which is neither java C

why? cause in the end the process has nothing to do with much of anything but "dur text editor" + batch file
http://arduino.cc/forum/index.php?action=unread;boards=2,3,4,5,67,6,7,8,9,10,11,66,12,13,15,14,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28,29,30,86,87,89,1;ALL

pwillard

Ok, so let me open up and just start tossing my opinions out there again.

I've said it in other threads... Eclipse... while infinitely better than what the processing legacy IDE gives us... is still not a great idea for Arduino...well, Ok...  to me it isn't.

What I LIKE about the general layout of the Arduino IDE...  is that it gets right to the point.  With few extraneous features or steps,  it a model of simplicity.  On the other hand... the built in code EDITOR should never have been held to the same simplicity standard with regards to code writing features.

We literally toss the new ARDUINO coder to the wolves when they have a bug in their code, for example.

We need a middle ground between the completely capable/customizable but complex code environment tools available and the barely functional editor we have now.

The question is: What do we really need as a new standard for the CORE editor in Arduino IDE?  Is this actually something we can agree on as a USER community?

The fact that there were no significant changes with the editor in the move to UNO support is both a blessing to legacy work (Meaning: Documentation)  and a completely missed opportunity by the DEV's.


But, to only touch 1 feature...  do we need the extra Project Management multi-file concepts of Eclipse or is that wasted on Arduino?  For example,  there are 10 discreet steps when starting a project in Eclipse that you go through before you even start writing code.  Clearly this could be disturbing to some.

Really, for those who are curious... I have no love for the state of the current editor.  Knowing that there is a HUGE list of JAVA code based editing tools available... it's clear that the expertise needed for some improvements is out there... somewhere in GUI land.

retrolefty

#23
Oct 27, 2010, 02:51 am Last Edit: Oct 27, 2010, 02:51 am by retrolefty Reason: 1
Maybe the existing Arduino IDE just needs to be able to utilize 'plug-in' options such that one could utilize any existing text editor they wanted? If the Arduino IDE had the means for such optional expansion we might have the best of both worlds, a simple default for beginners (much as it is today) but easily expandable for more advance users. I'm certainly over my head here as far as whats possible or practical, but I agree that the simplicity of the Arduino IDE is one reason for it's popularity in my opinion.

Lefty

Osgeld

#24
Oct 27, 2010, 03:34 am Last Edit: Oct 27, 2010, 03:55 am by Osgeld Reason: 1
for me its not even pluggin in stuff I want, I can do without line numbers code folding and even replace

but its just tiny annoyances that build up, and constantly bite me in the arse, yea its easy to fix, so easy infact that most of it was automaticly fixed in software back in the 80's

why does the auto tab screw up every line? (and why is tab 2 spaces? tab is a special character that usually equals the space of 4 or 8 spaces depending on the terminal, I guess you could use 2, I guess you could use unicorns but its not standard and makes it hard to line code up in block at times)

why does it actually mass select a line when there is an error instead of just highlighting it out so when you hit backspace it erases a line?

why does shift backapace = delete I have never encountered that one and I have been play coding since the //e? (which is real annoying to me since I use ALL CAPS for globals and dont feel its neccacary to hit caps lock for a < 5 letter word but sometimes hit the wrong key or 2 keys)

why does ctrl+z not take you to whatever its undoing, oh I want to undo 2 things, accidentally hit ctrl+z 3 times but yet it does not show that unless its on screen at that time so I undo something I changed an hour ago at the top of the script without ever knowing it

why cant i have 0123456789 or - in a tab name? these are valid file names

why does it not remember my window size? (there is a place for it in preferences.txt USE IT!)

why does it occasionally NOT SAVE? which used to be why does it not save at all?

why does "copy for forum" not use the [code ] tags?

why does it shove my hex files in some obscure temp folder?

why does it rely on a central preferences.txt file, maybe I want more than 1 version available like v16 which is what all the vusb stuff is made for and current

why the heck cant I change the color layout without becoming a text file hunter and why in 2010 does smooth fonts come disabled by default?

why does the serial monitor just forget to print serial data without having to reset on occasion (new for 18, no issues with 17)

...for just a few off the top of my head
http://arduino.cc/forum/index.php?action=unread;boards=2,3,4,5,67,6,7,8,9,10,11,66,12,13,15,14,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28,29,30,86,87,89,1;ALL

Osgeld

yep, just got hit by the no fkin save thing again

wrote 2 code blocks, checked slashdot real quick, said ok time for me to quit for the evening, choose shutdown

gedit asked if I wanted to save, gimp asked if I wanted to save, arduino just said FK it and closed

thanks for wasting 20 min cause you cant do a simple IF statement

yes my mistake, god help I have grown accustom to something that has been standard since the 1984 introduction of the Macintosh

my bad  
http://arduino.cc/forum/index.php?action=unread;boards=2,3,4,5,67,6,7,8,9,10,11,66,12,13,15,14,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28,29,30,86,87,89,1;ALL

Andrew

Some of us regularly save stuff that we want to, ummm, save. What if your computer had crashed?

Andrew

Osgeld

#27
Oct 28, 2010, 03:09 pm Last Edit: Oct 28, 2010, 03:27 pm by Osgeld Reason: 1
yea I said my bad, guess that excuses everything then doesn't it?

point is its a simple if statement why isn't it in there?

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What if your computer had crashed?


what if an alien space ship landed and my house burst into flames?

what if I was getting tired and had a brain fart ?

which one of those 3 (considering I use a nix box and this is 2010) is most likely to happen, and which is the easiest to fix?
http://arduino.cc/forum/index.php?action=unread;boards=2,3,4,5,67,6,7,8,9,10,11,66,12,13,15,14,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28,29,30,86,87,89,1;ALL

rondunn

There is no magic to compiling and uploading Arduino programs. To address an earlier question there is no such thing as "Arduino programming language", it is just C/C++ code compiled with the GNU tool chain.

Here is a simple batch file I used to compile the libraries and the main() stub:

[font=Courier New][size=10]set ARD_BIN=C:\arduino-0021\hardware\tools\avr\bin
set ARD_INC=C:\arduino-0021\hardware\arduino\cores\arduino

%ARD_BIN%\avr-gcc -c -g -Os -w -ffunction-sections -fdata-sections -mmcu=atmega328p -DF_CPU=16000000L -DARDUINO=21 -I%ARD_INC% *.c
%ARD_BIN%\avr-g++ -c -g -Os -w -fno-exceptions -ffunction-sections -fdata-sections -mmcu=atmega328p -DF_CPU=16000000L -DARDUINO=21 -I%ARD_INC% *.cpp
%ARD_BIN%\avr-ar rcs core.a *.o[/size][/font]

... and here's a simple file I use to compile and upload the current project:

[font=Courier New][size=10]set ARD_BIN=C:\arduino-0021\hardware\tools\avr\bin
set ARD_INC=C:\arduino-0021\hardware\arduino\cores\arduino

%ARD_BIN%\avr-g++ -c -g -Os -w -fno-exceptions -ffunction-sections -fdata-sections -mmcu=atmega328p -DF_CPU=16000000L -DARDUINO=21 -I%ARD_INC% *.cpp
%ARD_BIN%\avr-gcc -Os -Wl,--gc-sections -mmcu=atmega328p *.o -I%ARD_INC% %ARD_INC%\*.a -lm

%ARD_BIN%\avr-objcopy -O ihex -j .eeprom --set-section-flags=.eeprom=alloc,load --no-change-warnings --change-section-lma .eeprom=0 a.out a.eep
%ARD_BIN%\avr-objcopy -O ihex -R .eeprom a.out a.hex

%ARD_BIN%\avrdude -CC:\arduino-0021\hardware/tools/avr/etc/avrdude.conf -patmega328p -q -cstk500v1 -P\\.\COM25 -b115200 -D -Uflash:w:a.hex:i [/size][/font]

Neither file is a shining example of scripting, in fact, I think the second file could completely eliminate the gcc execution if I played with the switches on the g++ command line.

Set up files like this and you can use ANY editor.

The only thing for which I use the IDE is to run the serial monitor. If it was a separate program I wouldn't need the IDE at all.

Don't know why the developers waste their time on this poor piece of work.

Coding Badly

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Don't know why the developers waste their time on this poor piece of work.

Two things...

1. I disagree.  I was able to go from zero (no tool-chain, no editor, no libraries, etcetera) to uploading Sketches in about 15 minutes.  The whole process was simple, easy to understand, and trouble-free.  Hardly the hallmark of a "poor piece of work".

2. Your posting proves that you're a bit clever and that the GCC toolchain works well.  But, you have failed to back your claim that the Arduino IDE is a "poor piece of work".  

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