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Author Topic: any fans of the Bascom AVR ?  (Read 7067 times)
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just wondering if i should invest some time in this as the emulator looks good and its free too.
any comments welcome .
pros and cons .
thanx
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If it is a hobby, the weirder / more esoteric, the better. And BASCOM fits the bill there;

If you ever intend to make a living out of this, C is the only way.
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BASCOM AVR is superior to Arduino IDE. Bascom is simpler and much more flexible. In fact, Bascom is the language used by the majority of hobbyists.

C is more for professionals.

« Last Edit: December 15, 2012, 01:24:31 pm by Coding Badly » Logged

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Regarding Bascom, there can be a disadvantage. You can not perform "complicated" math on a single line.
You can not have something like:
a=b*(c+d)
Such an operation have to be decomposed in two lines (parts):
a=c+d
a=a*b
which looks somehow ugly and unfriendly.

« Last Edit: December 15, 2012, 03:43:44 am by simplex » Logged

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BASCOM AVR is superior to Arduino IDE. Bascom is simpler and much more flexible. In fact, Bascom is the language used by the majority of hobbyists.
Pretty bold statements.
I think looking at google trends is a good indication about somethings popularity or relevance.
Here is BASCOM vs Arduino:
http://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=bascom%2C%20Arduino&cmpt=q
World wide Google searches for BASCOM (not just BASCOM AVR) is waining while searches for Arduino is
still climbing quite rapidly.
It is very interesting to see a few BASCOM hotspots: Iran, Poland, and Indonesia
The rest of the world seems more interested in Arduino.
And even in those hot spots, the only one that is still higher than Arduino is Iran
and even there, the search activity is declining almost to match Arduino searches.

While not exactly an indicator about what hobbyists are using for development in in their projects,
clearly there is WAY more interest in Arduino than BASCOM.

Also, my concern for BASCOM is that it isn't free and doesn't have have the infinite
extensibility of C/C++
It also looks like they charge for additional functionality.
From their web page:
Quote
It is designed to run on W95/W98/NT/W2000/XP and Vista
That can be an absolute deal killer for some people, including myself.
(I don't do Windows)

If the Arduino IDE starts to become limiting, one can convert over to Makefiles or use some other
IDE on top of Makefiles and leave the Arduino IDE behind.
Then things like source level debugging using gdb becomes much easier when not use the Arduino IDE.
If Arduino starts to feel cramped it too can be left behind.
If using Windows, Atmel has their GUI IDE AVR studio.
The nice thing about staying with C/C++ and the AVR gnu tool set, is that it easy
to swap out the upper level development tools for a new set of tools and
not have to change the underlying AVR source code or programming language.

--- bill
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1) Arduino IDE and Arduino Uno (or other boards) are good for beginners because you can quickly get familiar with AVR chips, you can blink your first LED in 30-60 minutes from the moment when you get the Arduino Uno board. Apart from that, there is no other serious advantage.

2) Arduino IDE is quite inflexible. It is designed to work well with the Arduino boards it has in its list. If you want to use Arduino IDE for stand alone AVRs you run quickly into huge complications and the entire programming process starts to look more like hacking than serious work.

3) Another problem with Arduino IDE is that it does not have a debugger, it does not have a simulator. You can not run your programs step by step to find errors.

4) The hex file size generated by Arduino IDE is also a problem. A source code that just blink a LED, once compiled, generates a hex file greater than 1 Kbyte. Same code in Bascom is below 250 bytes and in IAR below 100 bytes.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2012, 01:15:52 am by simplex » Logged

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1) Arduino IDE and Arduino Uno (or other boards) are good for beginners because you can quickly get familiar with AVR chips, you can blink your first LED in 30-60 minutes from the moment when you get the Arduino Uno board. Apart from that, there is no other serious advantage.

So, are you saying that Arduino Uno and Arduino IDE are only good for blinking LED's?

2) Arduino IDE is quite inflexible. It is designed to work well with the Arduino boards it has in its list. If you want to use Arduino IDE for stand alone AVRs you run quickly into huge complications and the entire programming process starts to look more like hacking than serious work.

Arduino IDE was DESIGNED for Arduino boards.  If you want to work with something else, get a development environment designed for that product.  It is, however, rather trivial to use the Arduino IDE along with an external programmer to program standalone AVR chips.

3) Another problem with Arduino IDE is that it does not have a debugger, it does not have a simulator. You can not run your programs step by step to find errors.

Again, the Arduino IDE was never intended to provide debugging or simulation capabilities, so to claim that the lack of them is a problem with the Arduino IDE is disingenuous.

4) The hex file size generated by Arduino IDE is also a problem. A source code that just blink a LED, once compiled, generates a hex file greater than 1 Kbyte. Same code in Bascom is below 250 bytes and in IAR below 100 bytes.

Virtually ANY development environment can give better compiled size if you are willing to PAY for such optimization.  Arduino IDE is FREE, so once again complaining that it is not the most optimized compiler is disingenuous.   
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Quote
4) The hex file size generated by Arduino IDE is also a problem. A source code that just blink a LED, once compiled, generates a hex file greater than 1 Kbyte. Same code in Bascom is below 250 bytes and in IAR below 100 bytes.

Apples and oranges. Is your Bascom 'same code' initiating and controlling a timer to support a millis() and microSecond() freerunning timer?

Basic was a good way to learn getting started with programming, but soon there is a need to grow up, join the real world and work for a living.  smiley-wink

Lefty
« Last Edit: December 16, 2012, 02:10:33 am by retrolefty » Logged

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Arduino IDE was never intended to provide debugging or simulation capabilities, so to claim that the lack of them is a problem with the Arduino IDE
Yes, this is a big problem which decreases substantially the productivity of programmers.

Arduino IDE was not designed with debugging and simulation capabilities because it was hard to add such facilities. Arduino IDE is a toy.
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4) The hex file size generated by Arduino IDE is also a problem. A source code that just blink a LED, once compiled, generates a hex file greater than 1 Kbyte. Same code in Bascom is below 250 bytes and in IAR below 100 bytes.

Apples and oranges. Is your Bascom 'same code' initiating and controlling a timer to support a millis() and microSecond() freerunning timer?
I would say it really is an "apples" and "apples" comparison.
The user's code is merely blinking an LED. That functionality is identical.
The user doesn't care what has to happen behind the scenes or
how that gets implemented under the hood to make that happen.
He just wants to blink an led.

The Arduino core code is horribly inefficient at manipulating pins and drags in a tremendous amount of
code to handle a timer interrupt , and also includes a few dead-wood routines that are never called.
What we are seeing is the overhead of using the Arduino environment vs some other environment
to get the same job done.
So it is a true apples to apples comparison.
In this case Arduino (and to some extent wiring and its APIs ) happens to suck at code efficiency for
this simple application.

My guess is that there are other applications where Arduino can make things much easier and probably much
smaller. I'd bet that talking to a GLCD will be much more efficient with an Arduino library than
with BASCOM where you have to implement things by calling the built in functions vs being
able to twiddle things directly like you can in C.

--- bill
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just wondering if i should invest some time in this as the emulator looks good and its free too.

Where did you get the idea that it's "free" ?

I'm sure BASCOM is a fine compiler, if you like BASIC and don't mind being stuck on windows.  The Arduino forums are probably not a great place to talk about it, unless you have something like a tutorial on how to load BASCOM applications onto Arduino hardware.

I'd guess that being proficient in BASCOM AVR is about as useful on your resume as being proficient in Arduino.  Neither one is particularly sought after in the "real" technical market (whatever that means.)  Either one could be a great stepping stone to more desirable skills.
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I think looking at google trends is a good indication about somethings popularity or relevance.
Here is BASCOM vs Arduino:
http://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=bascom%2C%20Arduino&cmpt=q
World wide Google searches for BASCOM (not just BASCOM AVR) is waining while searches for Arduino is still climbing quite rapidly.

You compare Bascom, a software tool, an IDE, with Arduino which is an IDE and also a series of boards.

A more fair comparison would be:
Bascom AVR
Arduino IDE
see: http://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=Bascom%20AVR%2C%20Arduino%20IDE&cmpt=q

The interest in "Arduino IDE" has increased in the last four years and now in December 2012 it is roughly the same as in "Bascom AVR". We have to wait and see what happens in the future.
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Try looking at more than just the graph.  Bascom AVR is popular in places like Iran - which has a search volume index of 100 for Bascom AVR and 0 for Arduino IDE, and BASCOM AVR has a  search volume index of 1 in the US. Whereas Arduino IDE has a search volume index of 60 in the United States and 0 in Iran.

I would say that the Google Trends would indicate that Bascom AVR is the clear winner over Arduino IDE if your goal is to be with the "cool kids" in Iran.

More to the point, comparing a FREE IDE with a COMMERCIAL IDE is pure folly.

Let's compare the two in some real world applications that Arduino is being used in today.  Let's see your Bascom AVR code to control a UAV.   Let's see your Bascom AVR code to control all the timers and relays for a hydroponic system or a salt water aquarium.  Let's see your Bascom AVR code to control a 8*8*8 LED cube.

I'll be waiting for ANYONE to show me that Bascom AVR can do that in less space.
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Bascom AVR can do that in less space.

Space is probably one of many factors in comparing compilers / development environment, hardly the only factor.

I would be reasonably confident in saying that arduino is unlikely to win in a space-only game vs. other compilers (let's limit ourselves to C for now). What arduino excels is to get people with little experience to produce results in a short period of time (aka level the learning curve).

With their libraries, other compilers (bascom for example) do the same. So that may be a more interesting comparison.
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Bascom AVR is popular in places like Iran
Those Google trends go to nowhere.
From this trend:
http://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=CodeVision%2C%20Arduino%20IDE%2C%20Bascom%20AVR%2C%20AVR%20Studio%2C%20IAR%20AVR&geo=US&cmpt=q
I can quickly draw the conclusion that Arduino IDE is of interest only in California and New York. The interest is zero in the rest of US.
The interest in AVR Studio is high in at least ten US states including California and New York.

The interest in Arduino IDE is high in Japan, Italy, Germany, California and New York and zero in rest.
see: http://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=CodeVision%2C%20Arduino%20IDE%2C%20Bascom%20AVR%2C%20AVR%20Studio%2C%20IAR%20AVR&cmpt=q

Maybe there are distributors there,  stores from where you can buy directly Arduino boards and having a board you are obliged to use Arduino IDE.
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