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Author Topic: Closed (ouch) or Open Hardware new Uno's ?  (Read 13920 times)
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The IDE won't be locked to Arduino-only.  While I can't be bothered to go and check, Massimo said that arduinos would pop up as genuine arduino and everything else wouldn't.
I think he said that the IDE would support any devices on a serial port - but, potentially at least, the new USB way wouldn't show up as a serial port.

So board-makers would either have to use the FTDI serial, use their own vID/pID and a suitable driver to make it act like a serial port, or have their vID/pID supported by the Arduino team driver/IDE itself.

What this effectively means is: you can't just download the schems from Arduino.cc and use them "as is". You'd have to deal with these comms issues somehow yourself.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2010, 05:15:49 am by Eight » Logged

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Apologies - just reading the info on the Uno and it appears the design DOES show up as a virtual com port in the same way as the old system.

So there shouldn't be any concerns re: IDE since the same could probably be implemented with relative ease. And just different vID/pIDs used.
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What this effectively means is: you can't just download the schems from Arduino.cc and use them "as is". You'd have to deal with these comms issues somehow yourself.

Surely as a hobbyist if I built my own I'd just set the vid/pid to an arduino uno?

I can't see any practical way of Arduino stopping that happening, I can't see any practical way of Arduino acting against people who do that and I can't see how it would damage the Arduino brand in any way.
It's just people making and selling clone boards who need to worry, and as a commercial enterprise they need to adapt to the market or die.  Sounds a bit harsh, but that's capitalism.  

I also don't think it's any concern of Arduinos.  I know it has been said that it's not open-source and it's damaging to the community but  if you think making a profit from open-source stuff is a priority and something that needs to be protected then I think you've got the wrong idea about open-source.

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The old boards will all show up as all serial ports will still be able to be selected.

The thing that some people are getting at is that the arduino will come up differently as an official board and to be honest, if I was making boards, I would want them to come up the same as what device they are.

2K for a VID is not too expensive in the whole scheme of things. Maybe for an individual hobbyist but not for a whole hobbyist community or a larger company producing arduino 'clone' boards.

Mowcius
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It's just people making and selling clone boards who need to worry, and as a commercial enterprise they need to adapt to the market or die.  Sounds a bit harsh, but that's capitalism.  
True - but this is supposed to be open-source right?

One of the best things about the Arduino platform is the availability of different boards. I mentioned in another thread that I didn't think a direct clone was really in the spirit of things, but someone who uses the Arduino team's "source" to offer a tweaked board is doing a great thing.

I'm thinking right now of the R2Duino, which I love. A simple, small Arduino with two built-in relays. I want guys to be able to produce stuff like this... and for it to work without too much hassle at my end. (As it does now). If they're forced to either find the skills to integrate their own FTDI/Serial method (instead of being able to use the "source" schematics and tweak the bits they can) OR to pay $2000 for their own vID then it's going to impact the ability of the little guys to produce these unique variations.

Edit: And wouldn't stop the Farnells, Seeedstudios, DFRobotics etc. of the world from cloning the hard work of the Arduino team.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2010, 05:42:41 am by Eight » Logged

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I'm thinking right now of the R2Duino, which I love. A simple, small Arduino with two built-in relays. I want guys to be able to produce stuff like this... and for it to work without too much hassle at my end. (As it does now). If they're forced to either find the skills to integrate their own FTDI/Serial method (instead of being able to use the "source" schematics and tweak the bits they can) OR to pay $2000 for their own vID/pID then it's going to impact the ability of the little guys to produce these unique variations.

Firstly, when I had a quick look I couldn't see any difference between the duemilanove and the uno other than the switch from FTDI to this new thing.  So, if I were creating a clone I can't really see the benefit of switching from something I'm already using and know works problem free to a new thing whose main difference is that it'll cost me $2k.
Secondly, as we've already seen it's unlikely to cost $2k given three of us had the idea of purchasing a community VID straight away.  Given the size and strenth of the arduino community I can't see a problem with us raising $2k beyond the who collects it and then who adminsitrates the VID.
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So, if I were creating a clone I can't really see the benefit of switching from something I'm already using and know works problem free to a new thing whose main difference is that it'll cost me $2k.
Oh I agree - I'm thinking a little way down the line. When the Duemilanove etc. has long been forgotten or where basing projects on the newer platforms is preferred.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2010, 05:54:34 am by Eight » Logged

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Oh I agree - I'm thinking a little way down the line. When the Duemilanove etc. has long been forgotten or where basing projects on the newer platforms is preferred.
Well I'd like to see the end of the having to remember serial ports eventually but I think (like the weird arduino header spacing), the serial port selection will stay (just maybe be more hidden on future versions).
« Last Edit: September 27, 2010, 05:58:48 am by mowcius » Logged

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What is gained by running around in panic like headless chicken?
  • For one, about what chip are we talking about? Are we talking about the Atmega8U2 that replaces the FTDI chip or the Atmega328 at the core. Which one needs the USB-VID? If it's the USB-driver, what's the difference with the current situation, where everyone uses the ID from FTDI?
  • Second, you all have no clue how USB-IDs clones are going to be handled.
  • Third, if some collective is forking out money for an USB-VID, how do you know they behave more sensibly than the Arduino group? Going by the general panic expressed in this thread, I put more faith into the Arduino crew.
  • Forth, do you know if you're even allowed by the USB consortium sellign the VID to hand out PIDs to others? If I remember correctly, there were a few vendors selling single PIDs, but that has stopped. And it certainly wasn't because the need for such a service disappeared.

So please, engage whatever is sloshing around between your ears and stop the panic-mongering.

Korman
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What is gained by running around in panic like headless chicken?

If you worked where I worked you'd be glad of the excitement.
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You have a strange definition of panic.

We established much earlier that initially we'd like word from Arduino as to whether we can all freely use the VID and PIDs they'll be issuing. Suspect not, but it'd be nice to hear it. FTDI allow everyone to use their IDs because they're using the same chip. This is different but how different we don't really know yet.

As for point two - see above.

Point four - one of many things that would need to checked. But according to you, any discussion on those lines is "panic" so obviously there's no point looking into it. smiley-wink
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Korman, you haven't read the thread properly.

I wouldn't call it panic. It is merely discussion.

Mowcius
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All this ranting is based on a lot of speculation about unreleased code, which has been promised to be released very soon.  It may turn out to be a whole lot of worry over nothing.

But if you like fretting and worrying, another possibility to consider is the (expensive) option to submit the INF to Microsoft's WHQL program.  If Microsoft digitally signs the INF, then official Arduino would be installed without the unsigned driver warnings, but clones (who don't copy the VID/PID) would get the unsigned driver warning if they change even 1 byte anywhere in that INF.
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So any device with a USB interface is automatically closed-source?    I don't think so.

Your "nightmare scenario" has always been possible, even with the FTDI chip (which can be assigned vendor-specific VID/PID instead of using FTDI's.)  However, the new USB HW opens up the possibility of having USB-side firmware with enhanced functionality, which may or may not be important.

Meanwhile, the Arduino host-side software doesn't talk USB.  It talks "serial" to a device that happens to be implemented by a USB/Serial converter.  It will continue to work with FTDI-chipped clones, FTDI-cabled clones, $3 Nokia phone adapter cables, any other USB/Serial adapter cable, and even real serial ports.

I think the preferred solution for explicit clones and derivatives that don't want to pony up the $$ required for their own VID/PID is to use Atmel's VID as permitted here: http://support.atmel.no/bin/customer?=&action=viewKbEntry&id=220  (but it's not clear that clone vendors even need to give up the FTDI-based (or TTL-serial approach.  Frankly, the non-USB boards are among the more interesting of the derivative boards!)

Lastly, you ought to remember that the Arduino team does not NEED to be "sneaky" if they want to end the open-source nature of the project.  They can just say "well, we decided to go closed source on version 2; y'all  who think OS is important can continue to use the v1 designs and SW."  So conspiracy theories are ... much more complex than necessary.  (And everything I've seen and heard indicates that they are in fact big believers in the whole open source thing.  The one small glitch that did occur was both short-lived and resolved in the more-open direction...)
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Arduino 20 is now on the download page
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