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Author Topic: Closed (ouch) or Open Hardware new Uno's ?  (Read 12793 times)
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Is this the unfortunate beginning of closed hardware, USB Vendor-ID locked, now only partially "open hardware, open source", and controlled sale boards?
How truly open hardware and open source is this new USB mcu and USB VID/PID setup? The new USB corner of the board looks like it *could* be deliberately made to be a difficult to get, proprietary, closed system. Plus cheaper so as to double lock-out the marketplace too.
My hope and guess is that our treasured open hardware and open source values are still preserved here and we needn't worry, but these thoughts are there when looking at the new boards.
If the source and new USB VID/PID, or PID's are not going to be available to anyone at no charge and work without hacked IDE files at least, it's going to be a big problem to many in the community developing Arduino-compatible boards and all kinds of special derivatives. Trying to think positive thoughts for now!
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this is exactly my fear, that the IDE will be locked to only use boards that have the arduino vendor ID.
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Chillage++, guys, it's LUFA.  It will all be ok.

http://twitter.com/abcminiuser/status/25562390106

http://www.fourwalledcubicle.com/LUFA.php

-br
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http://entropymouse.com
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It has to be LUFA!  smiley
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LUFA is great, yes smiley
But closed market restrictions, hardware lockout potential and IDE locking can still lurk in this new USB Vendor ID/Product ID setup and source availability.
I'm keeping an open mind, hopefully this is too cynical a fear for now and we'll learn better very soon in posts right here and the community.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2010, 08:06:10 am by electronichobby1 » Logged

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If it supports all the other older boards what is the panic?
The older boards don't have vendor ID nor nothing like that, so chill out, jeez.
And using avr-dude and ditching all the arduino bloat ware is always an improvement.
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Electronicobby1,

have you checked what the Arduino platform is built? It's a bunch of open source components doing the heavy lifting, glued together by a mediocre GUI in Java and a boot-loader for the ATmega plus a few libraries of variable quality. Some are useful, other aren't much more than code fragments copied from the Atmel data sheet.

So where can this vendor lock-in based on the USB-ID you're so afraid of can come from? From the boot loader? From the GUI? From the third party open source AVR-dude library? For all except the GUI, that problem will be patched out faster than you can voice a complaint. If they decide to mess with the GUI, you can bet on that it will be replaced quickly, perhaps even an eclipse integration. The GUI doesn't have much unique functions, it's just a nice to have application which survives because it doesn't offend and creates no hassles.

All in all, I think your fears are totally unfounded and the development we see here is very positive.

Korman
« Last Edit: September 26, 2010, 08:27:33 am by Korman » Logged

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hello

there is no intention to lock anybody and anything out of Arduino.
The IDE will always work with anything that shows up as a serial port.

the only difference is that when you plug an Arduino made by Arduino it says "Arduino". It's a nice touch and better user experience.

The source code for what runs inside the 8u2 will be released in the next few days and anybody can build one if they like.

We worked with the amazing dean camera (creator of lufa) so that we could provide more possibilities for Arduino users to create while staying compatible with previous boards.

On the other hand I do feel that Arduino has to provide customers of its own boards some nice extras and this is one of those

The FTDI chip is just a microcontroller running a closed source firmware, this one is 1000% more open source but nobody is bitching at FTDI for not releasing their code.


PS:
Personal note (not an official Arduino position) why on earth every time there is a change in Arduino a conspiracy theory has to come up?
What the hell do you think we are? Microsoft?
electronichobby1 if that's your way to keep an open mind I'm scared smiley





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Quote
Personal note (not an official Arduino position) why on earth every time there is a change in Arduino a conspiracy theory has to come up?
hope for the best, expect the worst.
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Hey thanks so much for the reply!

Maybe I have seen way too much of the Apple Authentication Coprocessor and similar market or product locking features smiley-wink

So the new USB IC and VID/PID combination is free and open to use for anybody thinking about building or selling any of their own compatible boards and special boards, that is truly excellent news. I love this community and projects for the openness that it is built on.

I know what you mean about the FTDI chip, it is closed firmware yes, but is open supply, open VID/PID, drivers and operation which make it supplier, feature, board and IDE unlocked so to speak.

My apologies if this went off into anything like a conspiracy theory area. New features are awesome when they stay open to everybody.
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Personal note (not an official Arduino position) why on earth every time there is a change in Arduino a conspiracy theory has to come up?

I dunno, drastic changes and lack of information? the arduino team press skills could use some polish
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The FTDI chip is just a microcontroller running a closed source firmware, this one is 1000% more open source but nobody is bitching at FTDI for not releasing their code.

Yeah, but it's sold as a USB/rs232 interface, and their drivers are cross-platform, and it work really really well.

My concerns with the 8U2 are: first and foremost, does it work as well as the FTDI?  I don't care if it's open/closed, specific/general, or anything else.  It needs to Just Work every time I plug it in.  FTDI has that nailed down.

Next, what happens if I use more than one device?  Does the 8U2 firmware/driver have provisions for identifying a particular device, so that no matter where I plug it in or when I plug it in, I know it's that particular unit?

Here's a place where the 8U2 can outshine FTDI: does it work on Solaris?  smiley

-j
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I predict a short while until someone programs an ATUSB8U-2 (or something similar) to show up as an arduino (or a freeduino or similar).

If the arduino team can do it, someone else can.

They'll all come up as fancy new boards soon enough...

Mowcius
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why on earth every time there is a change in Arduino a conspiracy theory has to come up?
Welcome to "success"!

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drastic changes and lack of information?
I don't think that I'd call any of the changes "drastic."  Even the new USB stuff is basically the same as it used to be (USB/Serial converter, shows up on host system as a serial port.  Used to use FTDI chip and require FTDI drivers, now uses AVR/LUFA and uses built-in CDC drivers.)

I suspect that a lot of the recent changes (USB, FCC, fancy box) have to do with chain-store policies related to retail sales.  "FCC won't believe it's an experimental device if we're selling it off the shelf in a blister pack."  "We're not comfortable that you have third-party proprietary drivers (FTDI) on your CD."

The schematics and CAD files are out in record time, there was major discourse at Maker Faire and Lady Ada's broadcast (and I guessed right; the publish PCB files don't include the logo silkscreen! (which is fine by me.  A good idea, even.))

The only annoying part, IMO, was that the interval between "hints" of "something cooking" and the actual details was ... a little bit too long.  (although previous new hardware has been "suprise, we have a new board", which is a bit too short.)
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the only difference is that when you plug an Arduino made by Arduino it says "Arduino". It's a nice touch and better user experience.

So if a clone is plugged in what does it say?
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