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Author Topic: Arduino Packaging Strategy is Wasting Paper Products  (Read 5697 times)
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TX
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My guess is, that since the device is aimed at the hobby market, they expect that the first thing the new owner will do is open it up and hold it in their hands. The ESD bag would just slow that process down slightly. In the absence of warnings about "only use at an ESD-safe workstation", which would go against the whole hobbyist approach, there isn't much point about worrying about ESD.

Hello Nick,

I a little shocked (no pun intended) that I'm even having this ESD packaging debate with some of the people here who are obviously highly skilled in electronics, so instead of quoting the sources I was going to quote, let's take the argument in your "hobbyist" direction.

Every single card I've ever bought for my computer hobby over the years, as far as I can remember, has been shipped in an ESD protective bag. I open it's box and it's sitting there in an ESD bag. Video cards, USB cards, Firewire cards, memory sticks, Wireless PCI cards, network adapters, and so on.

Why, if these computer items are meant for hobbyists, as your line of reasoning goes, were they then shipped in ESD bags? These manufacturers seem to agree with my logic - the industriy's logic and ESD standards.

How do you think are they different from the Arduino circuit board?
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How do you think are they different from the Arduino circuit board?

Because they were designed to be used by artist and creative people and not dull stuffy engineers.  smiley-wink

Actually the arduino micros on board all have clamping protection diodes on their I/O pins to protect from all but the most dramatic of ESD sources. I worked in digital field service for decades starting in the late 60s before ESD packaging was even invented and never had a problem handling PCB without such protection. It wasn't until later with the use of early CMOS logic chips where ESD damage became a bigger issue. Later it became more standard for CMOS manufactures to install internal clamping diode protection on their device pins to help deal with ESD vulnerability. The use of wrist straps and conductive bags is mostly over kill for completed boards, but people will always fall back on 'think of the children' we must all use grounded wrist straps and such.

Lefty
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TX
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How do you think are they different from the Arduino circuit board?

Because they were designed to be used by artist and creative people and not dull stuffy engineers.  smiley-wink

So ... they aren't different from the Arduino.

Quote
Actually the arduino micros on board all have clamping protection diodes on their I/O pins to protect from all but the most dramatic of ESD sources. I worked in digital field service for decades starting in the late 60s before ESD packaging was even invented and never had a problem handling PCB without such protection. It wasn't until later with the use of early CMOS logic chips where ESD damage became a bigger issue. Later it became more standard for CMOS manufactures to install internal clamping diode protection on their device pins to help deal with ESD vulnerability. The use of wrist straps and conductive bags is mostly over kill for completed boards, but people will always fall back on 'think of the children' we must all use grounded wrist straps and such.

So it is your avowed position that ESD protective bags are not required for shipment of completed electronic boards, and if I quote you expert sources that say you're mistaken, that you will just tell us that you are the trusted expert on this subject and that the experts in the industry that have devoted research and engineering to this issue are all wrong.

Do have that about right Lefty?
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How do you think are they different from the Arduino circuit board?

Because they were designed to be used by artist and creative people and not dull stuffy engineers.  smiley-wink

So ... they aren't different from the Arduino.

Quote
Actually the arduino micros on board all have clamping protection diodes on their I/O pins to protect from all but the most dramatic of ESD sources. I worked in digital field service for decades starting in the late 60s before ESD packaging was even invented and never had a problem handling PCB without such protection. It wasn't until later with the use of early CMOS logic chips where ESD damage became a bigger issue. Later it became more standard for CMOS manufactures to install internal clamping diode protection on their device pins to help deal with ESD vulnerability. The use of wrist straps and conductive bags is mostly over kill for completed boards, but people will always fall back on 'think of the children' we must all use grounded wrist straps and such.

So it is your avowed position that ESD protective bags are not required for shipment of completed electronic boards, and if I quote you expert sources that say you're mistaken, that you will just tell us that you are the trusted expert on this subject and that the experts in the industry that have devoted research and engineering to this issue are all wrong.

Do have that about right Lefty?

Yep, feel free to quote me.

Lefty
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TX
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Yep, feel free to quote me.


What I see in this thread is mainly an irrational and sometimes hostile resistance to any type of suggestions that the Arduino packaging, or shipment methods, are not the best. Either it's the guy who claims the boxes shed a certain type refreshing drink-on-the-go, or it's you and others who have a greater knowledge of ESD protection than experts who work in this specific field and design these protection methods, and who's expertise, if quoted, would not be acknowledged.

So the reaction is not one of logic, science, or rational thinking. This is more like a kind of cultish or dogmatic reaction, almost a type of religious mindset. Our religion (the Arduino) and it's pastors and Pope (the company owners) can't be doing anything wrong, otherwise our belief would be false, but we know it to be true, because that's what we believe.

All hail the cardboard box!

Interesting, very interesting.

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You need to work on your Karma count.  smiley-wink

Lefty
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TX
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You need to work on your Karma count.  smiley-wink

On my forum we have both plus and minus karma, but it's been re-named "IQ".

As far as negative karma (which isn't available here) the way I look at it, the more negative I get, the more I know my points are getting through. I don't go for the "we all deserve medals and everyone's a winner" baloney.

I wear negative karma like a badge of honor Lefty.  smiley
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You need to work on your Karma count.  smiley-wink

On my forum we have both plus and minus karma, but it's been re-named "IQ".

As far as negative karma (which isn't available here) the way I look at it, the more negative I get, the more I know my points are getting through. I don't go for the "we all deserve medals and everyone's a winner" baloney.

I wear negative karma like a badge of honor Lefty.  smiley

They included negative karma here also when they first enabled Karma on this site. But it became pretty silly quickly as among the longest thread going at the time was on the Karma topic and people would hand out negatives to their friends just to make them laugh, so after a month or so they just stopped all Karma and left it off for over a year I think, until recently re-enabling it sometime last year with just the positive.

Makes little difference to me as most people after a short time can tell who is here to be helpful and who here is just for their own ego.

Lefty
« Last Edit: March 18, 2013, 06:58:07 pm by retrolefty » Logged

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So it is your avowed position that ESD protective bags are not required for shipment of completed electronic boards, and if I quote you expert sources that say you're mistaken, that you will just tell us that you are the trusted expert on this subject and that the experts in the industry that have devoted research and engineering to this issue are all wrong.

Do have that about right Lefty?
I'd be interested in seeing the export sources who are trusted experts in the field of AVR microcontrollers shipped in paper boxes that have devoted research and engineering to the issue.
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TX
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I'd be interested in seeing the export sources who are trusted experts in the field of AVR microcontrollers shipped in paper boxes that have devoted research and engineering to the issue.

Why are you interested in seeing it? Because you have some deep insight to contribute? Why not do so now?

You are trolling the topic. Unless you have some qualitative substance to add them I suggest you read along. Until then you are nothing more than another religious devotee quoting scripture.
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I'd be interested in seeing the export sources who are trusted experts in the field of AVR microcontrollers shipped in paper boxes that have devoted research and engineering to the issue.

Why are you interested in seeing it? Because you have some deep insight to contribute? Why not do so now?
no deep insights, I'm just curious about the studies done on ESD and you said you had them on hand.
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You are trolling the topic. Unless you have some qualitative substance to add them I suggest you read along. Until then you are nothing more than another religious devotee quoting scripture.
Well even if I am ``quoting scripture'' at least I'm not pretending I have ``evidence'' I do not. Furthermore, I do agree that the packaging in the picture you showed is somewhat excessive, but not as excessive as a lot of other things I see.
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TX
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Well even if I am ``quoting scripture'' at least I'm not pretending I have ``evidence'' I do not.

OK, so you have no evidence to support that it's safe to ship Arduino boards without ESD protective bags. I don't think anyone has that evidence. But, that's not the way the world operates in this area. Like I said, I've got lots of computer boards over the years and they were all shipped in ESD bags. Do you really think each manufacturer did a specific test to make sure the bag was needed, or do you think they followed general safe ESD shipping guidelines?

Now be honest.

Do you really think such very specific evidence exists, for the Arduino, or any other electronics board? Or, on the other hand, don't you really think that guidelines coming from the people who realize the effects of, and have studied ESD, put down general safe procedures for shipment, and that responsible shippers of electronics products should follow these guidelines? Do you really want me to Google the hundreds of sites that recommend ESD safe packaging, or would you rather just concede and fight some other battle you might win?

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Furthermore, I do agree that the packaging in the picture you showed is somewhat excessive, but not as excessive as a lot of other things I see.

Thanks. You know, when we meet each other with rational and logical responses, we can all have a better conversation. I used to watch Star Trek as a kid. Remember Spock - the logical Vulcan? It may seem silly, but sometimes I actually make myself act like Spock, because I am human and have certain things I like to stand behind. But sometimes it's better to shed human biases and just act like Spock. Just approach the issue with logic and no emotions, like this one.
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Chile
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Just approach the issue with logic and no emotions, like this one.

Yup, pure logic.

They need to re-think their packaging strategy in light of the environment.

Plastic bags vs paper.  smiley-roll-blue
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TX
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Yup, pure logic... Plastic bags vs paper. 

eried,

Are you pressed for time?

Do you have a hard time expressing complex points?

I've written quite a bit and posted pictures to bolster my position.

If you cannot muster more than a few short quips of the vast intellect behind your short phrases, then why even bother responding?
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I wrote something short because I had time. Otherwise I would have written long paragraphs trying to explain my personal opinion skinned loosely as 'the logic way' with ideas without real references or reasons, trying to find someone to discuss in this forum, just because.
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