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Author Topic: Million-and-one noob q:s about Programmers, Programs, Programming and Pragmatism  (Read 9521 times)
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nr Bundaberg, Australia
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Cosa is a HAL that is looking very promising, I think it works down to ATtin85 as well and is supported by the UECIDE IDE. Both still being developed but they look pretty nice.

UECIDE is not a full-on IDE like AS, it's more like the Arduino IDE with the stuff it should have.

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Rob
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Rob Gray aka the GRAYnomad www.robgray.com

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The AVRISP MkII is expensive as all hell (like 70 bucks
Where are you shopping? It's only $37 at Mouser.com
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Atmel/ATAVRISP2/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMv256HIxPBQcA8%252bsNH3cLLR
+ $5 or $7 for shipping.
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Designing & building electrical circuits for over 25 years. Check out the ATMega1284P based Bobuino and other '328P & '1284P creations & offerings at  www.crossroadsfencing.com/BobuinoRev17.
Arduino for Teens available at Amazon.com.

nr Bundaberg, Australia
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I think I got one in Oz for ~$20. Either way they cost almost nothing.

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Rob
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Atmel Studio 5 was about 2.6GB of code (for windows.)  (I should try that again with 6.1...)
Ah.  Up to 3.4GB.   No we're talking!
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Yep, none of your wussy little IDEs here, this is the full bloat. I start in in the morning just in case I'll need it after lunch smiley

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Rob
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Rob Gray aka the GRAYnomad www.robgray.com

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Stop lying. Atmel Studio starts in no more than 4-5 seconds, unless you actually run it on an Arduino  smiley-grin
Anyway, I live in a godforsaken place where you pay out your ass for almost anything so, no I want to avoid having to buy the MkII smiley-wink

Anyone of you guys have any experience with FLIP? So you can get rid of the need for ISPs?
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It loads plenty fast for me too, on a C2D with 2G RAM and SSD running Win7.  Maybe 10 seconds on a bad day.  Sure it's not vi or anything, but I can hang with that.

I'm not a fan of the automatic brace/parentheses closure though.  I can't count how many times I've had a line end in )))) because the stupid editor decided typing SHIFT+0 was too much to ask of me.  Haven't found a way to turn that off yet.
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Just thought I'd time AS load, over 2 minutes (2:05), but that's really just a reflection on the fact that I need a new computer or less junk on my current one smiley

I was not aware of FLIP, it looks like it's only for the 32-bit AVRs, is that the case?

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Just thought I'd time AS load, over 2 minutes
About one minute for my VM.  Faster the second time...
About 20s for arduino, BTW.

I thought "Flip" was mostly for talking to bootloaders? (thus the variety of communications channels...)

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I thought "Flip" was mostly for talking to bootloaders? (thus the variety of communications channels...)

Um, yeah it probably is, I still don't know what it does.. You upload .hex or .elf files through it though so I assume it's the programs you build? Whatever it's impossible to know, those stupid nerds who document this stuff are so far up their own ass they forget to tell what they've actually done, they're like "yay it works, onto the web page it goes" without any clue what the ____ [please watch the language - Moderater] it is, could be a revision to atmel studio, could be a picture of a lactating hippo.
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Yes, there is very much "assumed knowledge" required in the traditional paths to microcontroller development.  Arduino assumes less (and successfully so, unlike many "easier to use" IDEs that STILL have a big knowledge cliff), which is why is succeeds (IMO.)

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This was my first experience with microcontrollers, for some labs in a realtime systems course at university
Ah.  So your actual "experience" with microcontrollers is rather less than than the content of those experiences would suggest.  You had one (university-provided) recipe for doing development, and are unhappy that the arduino "recipe" is so different (and that it's so expensive to duplicate the university environment.)  This is pretty common (and to be honest, a lot of "professionals" go to work somewhere that provides an official "recipe", so they never learn the details, either.)

But if you want to program Arduino hardware using a non-Arduino IDE, and a non-Arduino device programming method, you WILL need to either find someone who has done it already (and documented it well enough for you to follow), OR figure out all the nasty little details yourself (like the differences between device programming, In-system programming, self-programming, bootloading, device programming protocols, programmer communications protocols, bootloader communications protocols, Atmel-studio supported programmers vs 'external extensions', Programming vs debugging, and so on.  A Lot Of Stuff.)
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Yes, there is very much "assumed knowledge" required in the traditional paths to microcontroller development.  Arduino assumes less (and successfully so, unlike many "easier to use" IDEs that STILL have a big knowledge cliff), which is why is succeeds (IMO.)

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This was my first experience with microcontrollers, for some labs in a realtime systems course at university
Ah.  So your actual "experience" with microcontrollers is rather less than than the content of those experiences would suggest.  You had one (university-provided) recipe for doing development, and are unhappy that the arduino "recipe" is so different (and that it's so expensive to duplicate the university environment.)  This is pretty common (and to be honest, a lot of "professionals" go to work somewhere that provides an official "recipe", so they never learn the details, either.)

But if you want to program Arduino hardware using a non-Arduino IDE, and a non-Arduino device programming method, you WILL need to either find someone who has done it already (and documented it well enough for you to follow), OR figure out all the nasty little details yourself (like the differences between device programming, In-system programming, self-programming, bootloading, device programming protocols, programmer communications protocols, bootloader communications protocols, Atmel-studio supported programmers vs 'external extensions', Programming vs debugging, and so on.  A Lot Of Stuff.)


Haha, thanks for being honest  smiley-grin Yeah the universities don't really focus on the boards do they, it's the concepts that are relevant. But when you're getting down to it you have to settle with something don't you... Anyway I'm not claiming to be an expert in anything, hope I didn't come across that way.

The Uno is on the way, I've found an old power supply and a USB cord, we'll see what happens smiley
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The Arduino environment is really easy to get started with.  REALLY easy.  It was meant to hide all the gritty details of code compilation and (flash) programming, and let you treat it like an appliance.  It's very successful at this, and thankfully, the details aren't hidden so thoroughly that it prevents you from going deeper if you want to.  It's really a sweet spot.

The best thing to do is jump in, hang out in the forum, and once you feel comfortable with what you're doing, take one step outside your comfort zone.  For e.g., buy a few blank 328P chips and learn how to breadboard them as Uno clones.  Once you've gotten the hang of that, you can learn to import the Arduino core into Atmel Studio, so you can still take advantage of the framework and all the community libraries, but you get your feet wet in a "real" development environment.  Then, write your own AVR code w/o Arduino.  The latter may not be desirable to everyone, but it's really helpful to see where AVR C ends and Arduino begins.
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