Poll
Question: DO we need another editor for Arduino code?
Yes - 60 (84.5%)
No - I like the current processing IDE - 8 (11.3%)
No - I have found something else altogether - 3 (4.2%)
Total Voters: 71

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Author Topic: .net based Arduino Sketch Editor  (Read 7522 times)
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Sofia, Bulgaria
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This is what open source is. You can not control forking, splitting, and merging of projects, it's a matter of personal opinion, will and knowledge.
There is a recent interview with Mark Shuttleworth ( http://derstandard.at/fs/1246541995003/Interview-Shuttleworth-about-GNOME-30---Whats-good-whats-missing-what-needs-work ), where he mentions projects like the Kernel which are strong and moving fast, because of strong, defined and accepted leadership, and there are projects that slip and even die, because of lack of such leadership. I would add that there are projects that just live, because they are growing, have been adopted and have become a standard, in a way.
I've personally fought against splitting of projects and miserably failed. One cannot control humans without creating opposition. Later I've found that if you expand the time horizon of your expectations you eventually get results.
Humans are so concerned about getting results within only their lifetime and cannot project beyond that smiley
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Lisbon
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Portability is in fact an issue. Moma reports some PInvokes (5) that are platform specific so porting the code to mono is not just compile and run but its possible.

The PInvokes are made by the ScintillaNet wrapper and the WeifenLuo.WinFormsUI.Docking used for the docking tabs functionality.

I'am am really a Open Source "Advocate" and  mono is a major concern to me. I've been following mono since the beginning and allot as been done since the project started... The fact that novel acquired ximain and therefore mono gives me some degree of confidence that Microsoft patents are being "followed"...

I know that for now this is a windows *only* release. that is a problem but not a definite one.
I wanted to develop this in C# because i use it every day at work...

Pedro
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I'am am really a Open Source "Advocate" and  mono is a major concern to me. I've been following mono since the beginning and allot as been done since the project started... The fact that novel acquired ximain and therefore mono gives me some degree of confidence that Microsoft patents are being "followed"...

that would be just fine but Novell was suckered into signing an IP licensing agreement with Microsoft when they were trying to work on an interoperability contract. Read the story, that's how it happened and there was much press from both MS and Novell. Novell was saying the new contract was about interoperability and Microsoft was saying it was about IP licensing. But the fact is, Novell is licensed to use some of Microsofts patented technologies. But, you won't find them saying MS .NET is part of that because they will not let that out of the bag directly or else they would be talking about .NET licensing. They refuse to so you have to consider it a threat to your business if you use any Mono .NET code off of the Windows platform.

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I know that for now this is a windows *only* release. that is a problem but not a definite one.
I wanted to develop this in C# because i use it every day at work...
You and many others keep confusing C# with .NET and they are not the same. C# is the compiler, CLI the runtime engine and it appears that Microsoft recently stated in legal terms anyone could build compatible versions as long as they followed the spec Microsoft controls. More on this in a moment. The .NET part included C# and the CLI but also includes all the MS .NET libraries and it is the libraries that Microsoft will not clarify the IP legal status of.

Now, regarding Microsoft's comments on C# and CLI and rights to follow the spec. With all the legal history of company after company signing licensing agreements with Microsoft and ending up in court because Microsoft illegally used the license or contract to the harm of the other, why would anyone trust them one bit? A very public example is Sun's Java contract with Microsoft in 1996. I bring up Java because that is why C#, CLI and the whole MS .NET platform exists today.  MS DirectX and Direct3D resulted from OpenGL in the early 90s also another example of lockin technologies created because cross platform technologies were getting popular. The requirement to only follow their spec or the license if revoked is a show stopper. Many GPL-like licenses just require you push back what's different but not Microsoft and it looks more like the standard legal trickery or loophole if you will.

So there can never be any discussion or belief that any MS .Net based product can be cross platform without the threat of being pulled from the market by MS patent lawyers. Arduino is all about learning and being inclusive so anyone can work with this. Doing an Arduino IDE in C# with or without .NET is exclusionary because it requires licenses from Microsoft, terms of the open C# and CLI are tied to Microsofts interpretation of following their specifications exactly, and they will not discuss cross platform licensing issues with the .Net libraries. What you do with this C# stuff is not yours to hand even if Microsoft leads you to believe it is. They have some of the best lawyers in the world and plenty of money to back them.

Too bad you weren't a Python developer.
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Dougl, I look forward to you developing an IDE in Python. I'd like it by next Tuesday please.

Andrew
« Last Edit: July 15, 2009, 12:59:47 pm by Andrew » Logged

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Dougl, I look forward to you developing an IDE in Python. I'd like it by next Tuesday please.

Andrew, what point were you attempting to make in your sideways comment anyways? Nowhere did I say the task was easy and nowhere did I say Python was going to make it easy.
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I think his sideways comment was in response to your sideways comment about not being a Python developer.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2009, 03:10:43 pm by JeffB42 » Logged

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Everyone,

Can we please cease with this religious war?  If you are an Open Source developer and write in Java, then please make better use of your time and contribute to the existing IDE.

If you like .NET and C#, then please feel free to help Pedro with his project.

One project does not threaten or make the other one obsolete, and perhaps the existence of other IDEs will make the existing IDE better through competition.  Remember, whether you are working on the existing IDE or a new one (in C# or Python or whatever), all work is done on a voluntary basis, so until you are ready to pay someone to develop, please refrain from telling them what they can/can not/should/should not do.

Thanks,


Jeff
« Last Edit: July 15, 2009, 03:13:22 pm by JeffB42 » Logged

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I think his sideways comment was in response to your sideways comment about not being a Python developer.

then I screwed up by not getting the point across that C# and all that .NET stuff is not open source and has not been proven to be legally used on any other platform but Microsoft's. The Python comment was because it is open source and cross platform and could just have easily been C++/Qt, or many others.

Also, I only chimed in because of all the misinformed comments about this MS .NET Arduino IDE project being cross platform and anything but a Windows only IDE. Not to mention people not even knowing C# is not .NET and .NET is not C#.  My comments have been as much as possible about facts and have not been based not some trust-me faith based stuff religions are about.
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Jeff hit the nail on the head:
Quote
Remember, whether you are working on the existing IDE or a new one (in C# or Python or whatever), all work is done on a voluntary basis, so until you are ready to pay someone to develop, please refrain from telling them what they can/can not/should/should not do.

Andrew
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Bonn, Germany
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Sorry if this ends up being some sort of flame.. but i have read enough of that bs..

Dougl:
Please give me a single case, which has defenetely proven that MS could legally stop a project that is porting a .NET program to some Platform that is not Windows. Moreover - and now try to think straight! - please tell me, how come there exist projects as SharpDevelop (IDE), MONO (Runtime) as well as other 3rd party .Net forks that arent owned in any way by MS? If MS wanted to ensure there is no portability whatsoever, dont you think they would end up removing the 'problem' by it's roots?

I can understand that a frustrated Pyhton/Linux or Mac User has sometimes his problem with the world of Microsoft products where contracts about product availability and especially product compatibility and quality ensure a way of computer usage you have (unfortunately!) not in any other environment, except, maybe, Mac. Although everything is regulated by MS (which is their right to do!) you have to admit, that it works!
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Believe me, Mike, I calculated the odds of this succeeding against the odds I was doing something incredibly stupid[ch8230] and I went ahead

"The old Europe"
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The 'control' part works for sure.

Also not everything that crawls out of Redmond is bad, but they had (and maybe still have) a very special talent for bugs.

- "no mouse found, click left mouse button...."
- have you ever tried saving a large document with word95 (or whatever it was called) ?
- why don't JPG images work in roaming profiles in a NT4 domain ?
...
...

What's most annoying about MS is that some of the bugs took ages to get fixed, if at all.
Not amusing if you shell out a huge chunk of money for an OS. Apple might not be better at all, but at least you can get OS upgrades for 30$.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2009, 01:09:25 pm by madworm » Logged

• Upload doesn't work? Do a loop-back test.
• There's absolutely NO excuse for not having an ISP!
• Your AVR needs a brain surgery? Use the online FUSE calculator.
My projects: RGB LED matrix, RGB LED ring, various ATtiny gadgets...
• Microsoft is not the answer. It is the question, and the answer is NO!

Bonn, Germany
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I think we should take this discussion into a different subforum as it doesnt fit this thread.
Btw, i like a Message as "No screen found, please view the readme.txt" more then 'KERNEL PANIC' - they really help the mood as they are always fun to read ,0)
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Believe me, Mike, I calculated the odds of this succeeding against the odds I was doing something incredibly stupid[ch8230] and I went ahead

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Sorry if this ends up being some sort of flame.. but i have read enough of that bs..

it appears you read very little of what else goes on, and has gone on, in the world of tech.  I've got two more things to say about your nitpicking, one is that when you have fleas in your carpeting, you don't kill them all with one treatment. You must wait until the eggs hatch and then lay the bomb which kills them all. Right now, those .NET copies are just helping spread the use of their technology to gain market share and so they are beneficial.

The next thing I'm going to mention is going to require you to go research the details. Microsoft licensed part of their Win32 APIs to about 5 companies who used those licenses to provide compatibility libraries so Win32 source code could be compiled to run on UNIX systems. After a few years and a number of critical workstation class applications were ported to Win32 and were running using the compatibility libraries, Microsoft increased the licensing cost to around 4X what they originally licensed it as and effectively made using those libraries on UNIX systems too expensive and so all the companies either had to now port from Win32 to UNIX or try to get their customers to run their software on Windows or go without it. Here's a few terms to search if you want to read up on history( bristol microsoft  win32 mainsoft ).

Most if not all of MS .NET is not portable without license from Microsoft and I challenge you or anyone else to get them to tell you in writing that it is.  Stop the BS about MS .NET portability.
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Bonn, Germany
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*sigh* so.. once more a post on this here..

Umm... yes, what do you think is a market about? You dont gain market share by keeping your software to yourself. OF COURSE Microsoft is trying to get as much of the share as possible - Microsoft IS a company that has making money in their mind. And if a demand is on the market they can dictate the price for their own property.
Maybe we should all wait for the upcoming chrome OS to see this game played by yet another company - once Google is about to enter the stage you will see they will either copy the Microsoft libraries (and get sued - and that is without question the right thing!) or they will have to buy various licences and will give the costs to the users via Advertisements..
There was always and is always a price on stuff if there is someone ready to buy it.. so, whats the best way to put a price on something? Make people want it. If people can develop for windows, linux and whatever with the same set of tools they will do it.. and microsoft can make money by selling certain .Net APIs, VS and various other stuff. If they killed all fleas with one strike, they could sure as hell forget about all this.
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Believe me, Mike, I calculated the odds of this succeeding against the odds I was doing something incredibly stupid[ch8230] and I went ahead

Sofia, Bulgaria
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Nachtwind,
the thing is that if you have a history of being a bully, then everyone that is looking into working with you expects you to go that way. It does not matter if .NET was not particularly made hard to use or difficult to port. It matters that there is a history of bad practices. So, having a product that aims at harvesting the free energy of people willing to contribute and later making it hard or even impossible to use the collective effort of everyone (or even the expectation that you can do so) is a BAD, really BAD thing.
Making profit is one thing (see sparkfun, arduino), making profit on the behalf of the anonymous, ever thirsty for money horde called THE SHAREHOLDERS is the worst of what capitalism can be (see Coke, MS, McDonalds, any pharma company).
« Last Edit: July 16, 2009, 03:12:42 pm by mircho » Logged

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