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Topic: BEGINNERS: We rarely write code for you, but will help you write it for yourself (Read 6785 times) previous topic - next topic

GoForSmoke

I think experienced programmers will not try to do everything in one in the first place.
It makes debugging a hell of a lot easier.

You're able to develop a toolkit to support Input, Processing and Output as modules ahead of time, learning each piece.

It really pays to learn or refresh at least to HS level physics to handle basic electronics and what's behind buttons and other sensors we use. OTOH just about all of this can be bought and cookbooked for those who can merge code properly, but you won't have as clear a picture without the background. Oh well, stick to whatchano and keep learninmo.
1) http://gammon.com.au/blink  <-- tasking Arduino 1-2-3
2) http://gammon.com.au/serial <-- techniques howto
3) http://gammon.com.au/interrupts
Your sketch can sense ongoing process events in time.
Your sketch can make events to control it over time.

lastchancename

LOL, the word 'physics' has just hit about 30% of newbie makers between the eyes...!
You can knock out another 20% by mentioning 'computer science', and a few more with 'engineering'...

That might clean out some of the cobwebs.
Ask the right question, which can be hard for beginners, but this doesn't mean that google is broken.
Experienced responders have a nose for laziness, (they were beginners once)... expecting the poster to contribute to the learning experience.

GreyArea

LOL, the word 'physics' has just hit about 30% of newbie makers between the eyes...!
You can knock out another 20% by mentioning 'computer science', and a few more with 'engineering'...

That might clean out some of the cobwebs.
Is that the aim of the experts then? To put newbies off?

lastchancename

Quote
Is that the aim of the experts then? To put newbies off?
No, on behalf of all the 'experts out there', this is simply an observation of where many/most beginners are starting from.

If a beginner doesn't have fundamental, logical concepts of physics, electricity, engineering and science - then seriously - you're making it hard on yourselves.  Repeatedly plugging a LED different ways until it works... isn't science or engineering.  It's looking for dead LEDs (and a bit of observational psychology).

Buy the training wheels, then grow into the role.  Cut & paste isn't being a software developer.  Yes, believe it or not, many devs *do* cut & paste, but it's not the architecture or critical parts of their code... and they review and optimise that pasted code later to make it more readable, relevant and efficient. 

Let's go back and reconsider that "30%..." statement again.
Ask the right question, which can be hard for beginners, but this doesn't mean that google is broken.
Experienced responders have a nose for laziness, (they were beginners once)... expecting the poster to contribute to the learning experience.

Robin2

Is that the aim of the experts then? To put newbies off?
Certainly not.

But learning, especially adult learning, is a two-way street. The student needs to put in some effort as well as the teacher. In many ways, for adult education the role of the teacher is to give the occasional nudge to the tiller to keep the boat moving in roughly the right direction.

...R
Two or three hours spent thinking and reading documentation solves most programming problems.

lastchancename

R2... Now you tell me!
I thought we were supposed to buy the hardware, write the code, and define the application!  In that order ;)
(I wish we were neighbours!)
Ask the right question, which can be hard for beginners, but this doesn't mean that google is broken.
Experienced responders have a nose for laziness, (they were beginners once)... expecting the poster to contribute to the learning experience.

GoForSmoke

Cut & paste isn't being a software developer. 
If that's all you do then yeah that's right and you won't be able merge programs that step on each other.

However if you write or paste tasks into loop() and do take care over resources and labels, developing the sketch can go quickly and well.


If someone is stopped merely by seeing the word "physics" in a sentence, regardless of context then perhaps they are not suited to reading, much less writing logic. That is not to say that they can never get suited to it but that they will need become so over time to be more than clueless even with all the (entirely logical) help and docs in the world.


When I start one sentence with "It pays to" and the very next with OTOH, I do expect reasonable people with Jr. High reading skills or better to figure it out and unreasonable people to be "triggered" into their own little worlds which may be good for them; the compiler will be far harder to deal with and their own runtime errors will finish them off.

For those willing to be active in learning, simple code only takes simple understanding. What you learn raises the "simple" bar which opens up new things as simple that were previously not. Work it that way and all your steps can be "simple".
1) http://gammon.com.au/blink  <-- tasking Arduino 1-2-3
2) http://gammon.com.au/serial <-- techniques howto
3) http://gammon.com.au/interrupts
Your sketch can sense ongoing process events in time.
Your sketch can make events to control it over time.

GoForSmoke

R2... Now you tell me!
I thought we were supposed to buy the hardware, write the code, and define the application!  In that order ;)
(I wish we were neighbours!)
LOL!  Isn't it buy the hardware then ask others to "make it go" while you manage them?
1) http://gammon.com.au/blink  <-- tasking Arduino 1-2-3
2) http://gammon.com.au/serial <-- techniques howto
3) http://gammon.com.au/interrupts
Your sketch can sense ongoing process events in time.
Your sketch can make events to control it over time.

lastchancename

Quote
LOL!  Isn't it buy the hardware then ask others to "make it go" while you manage them?
Nah, that's government outsourcing.
Private outsourcing lets someone else choose the wrong hardware.:)
Ask the right question, which can be hard for beginners, but this doesn't mean that google is broken.
Experienced responders have a nose for laziness, (they were beginners once)... expecting the poster to contribute to the learning experience.

GreyArea

Seems to be a host of unreasonable expectations on both sides.

For the newbies; yes, expecting unpaid third party effort just because you ask for it would not happen in any other field...well, maybe design, where people who should know better will often suggest that the work be done pro bono "for the exposure"...though to be fair, it's normally a newbie that's asked to provide it...

For the experts...if you think every newbie is a wannabe dev, you're asking for disappointment. Lots of people are discovering Arduino for the first time often after it's been portrayed to them as the magic box that can do anything. They get one and then realise they've done the equivalent of buying a Lotus kit car with no idea of how to put it together and don't even have a driving license. They probably should just put it back on eBay, but having made the investment, they're damn well going to give it a shot.

I don't think this thread is going to make any difference to the attitude of either newbies or experts. The experts write it in the expectation that the newbies must improve. The newbies won't read it...cos they're newbies; and when you've got one expert admitting that he doesn't read sticky posts or FAQs in his role as a newbie on other forums...you'd think some awareness of the intractable nature of the problem might appear, but it doesn't.

However...if you want to reduce numbers of ridiculous requests, then an offhand "read the stickies" comment is one way to go, but you might want to bear in mind what image that gives. Newbies talk. Are they telling their friends about the wonderful, helpful people at the Arduino forums, or are your online ears burning? I just worry you might end up throwing the baby out with the bath water.

But whatever, this thread has run its course I feel. If any newbie DOES read this best to view it as an ambitious wish list for a utopian society where everyone on earth holds good physics qualifications, knowledge of programming structure and the etiquette of Oscar Wilde.

Please don't despair; in reality, help will be found here.

Argh, meant to end on a positive note...so...help will be found here.

Robin2

Lots of people are discovering Arduino for the first time often after it's been portrayed to them as the magic box that can do anything. They get one and then realise they've done the equivalent of buying a Lotus kit car with no idea of how to put it together
There is a lot of truth in that - especially the magic box bit.

But it is a great "magic box" when you know how to use it.

How do you get that message across while at the same time saying to the person who knows nothing about it "but you need to be prepared to take the trouble to learn how"


Just to illustrate the "magic box" bit - someone asked me if a simple display could be automated. I will probably knock up a demo using an Uno and show it to them. You could probably do what is required a bit more cheaply with a few transistors and a relay - but it would take me a lot longer to do it that way.

...R
Two or three hours spent thinking and reading documentation solves most programming problems.

lastchancename

Quote
For the newbies; yes, expecting unpaid third party effort just because you ask for it would not happen in any other field...
I don't believe that's always the case...  often they want to create that 'killer app' equivalent, but are simply too lazy to put in even the minimal effort to understand the difference between input & output, or 'blocking' code.

Engage the effort wth meaningful conversation, uninterrupted by your xbox...

Quote
For the experts...if you think every newbie is a wannabe dev, you're asking for disappointment. Lots of people are discovering Arduino for the first time often after it's been portrayed to them as the magic box that can do anything.
I think we can all agree and understand that sentiment, but a beginner honestly asking a question (which can be rare), is even less likely to listen or participate in answering his own question.

Sure, we all want to *help each other*, but the one-way street isn't appealing to those that have already put in the hard work... 10-20 year ago.  Sadly, Over time, goodwill evaporates, and all forums will devolve when the experience leaves, and the remnants are learners spruiking 'String' functions, and robot-in-a-box projects on Indiegogo.
Ask the right question, which can be hard for beginners, but this doesn't mean that google is broken.
Experienced responders have a nose for laziness, (they were beginners once)... expecting the poster to contribute to the learning experience.

lastchancename

Quote
This Thread is no longer a Tutorial.
I reckon it should be moved to Project Guidance so as not to confuse newbies looking for tutorials.
...R
Sorry, I missed this comment earlier...
I wonder if there is a stat available for those users with <10 posts hitting the Tutorials first vs going straight into big-boy's questions...

It sounds draconian, but it could help real novices by setting barriers to some groups before they can post, but of course there are genuine users that come in to ask a legitimate question.

(That should generate some flames,)
Ask the right question, which can be hard for beginners, but this doesn't mean that google is broken.
Experienced responders have a nose for laziness, (they were beginners once)... expecting the poster to contribute to the learning experience.

GoForSmoke

Just because someone is new here does not make them inexperienced at programming or electronics.

And damn, I was sure that at least the top forum sections all have a  How to use this forum - please read. thread.

The most "give me code/do my work" threads I've seen (by far) come from students trying to find a ripcord for their procrastination-parachute. How do you get to final project time, the last week or less and only then seek help? Busted....

We also get people with backgrounds that cover what's needed for Arduino in spots only but are loathe to start back on square 1 and work through even just the basics. The "fun" parts for us are finding the holes at the rate of at least 2 thread pages for each and then spending several more trying to convince the OP that yeah it needs to be dealt with.

We really try to help people and for the most part we do very well.
1) http://gammon.com.au/blink  <-- tasking Arduino 1-2-3
2) http://gammon.com.au/serial <-- techniques howto
3) http://gammon.com.au/interrupts
Your sketch can sense ongoing process events in time.
Your sketch can make events to control it over time.

Grumpy_Mike

Quote
We really try to help people and for the most part we do very well.
Judging by the number of threads we get saying "thank you" I think we do rather well.

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