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Topic: Is it possible to read 218 independent inputs? (Read 5 times) previous topic - next topic

2stl

Hello there.

I plan to make a dual (91 keys * 2) musical keyboard with 36 effect keys.

Everything will play (and record) on PC (using a modification of Zynaddsubfx) and I just need a way to "read" these keys in a program.

Basically, I want some quick-start solution to be able to get which key was pressed and when. I just need an interface that identifies every key and sends this event to PC.

I don't know what's the best solution though.

Thanks in advance.

Eight

Maybe hack the guts of two PS2 keyboards - which have nice mapping circuitry so that each key gets a unique number etc?

Connect the data & clock lines from each to different pins on the Arduino.

Then you could probably read the scancodes from each keyboard.

E.g (made up numbers).
Scancode x15 from keyboard 1 = C#3
Scancode x15 from keyboard 2 = F7

2stl

Thank you.

The problem is the keyboards are assembled already... and they have simple normally open switches. :(

Eight

You've already built the musical keyboards e.g. with 218/220 (+ pwr, grnd) wires hanging out of the back?

Or have you bought them but intending to modify them?

2stl

I'm intended to modify 2 trashed keyboards. They don't have pwr or anything, they are just a bunch of electrical(electronic) switches. And I just need a way to read on PC which switch is pressed. I would use serial ports if they were enough, however, 218 are too much. And USB is way better.

Thank you.

Graynomad

Serial/USB is how to send the data to the PC and a different issue to decoding the switches.

Quote
just a bunch of electrical(electronic) switches

Do you have access to two wires from each switch?

Nothing immediatey springs to mind except 30 shift registers :) but there's bound to be some keyboard decoder chips out there.
Rob Gray aka the GRAYnomad www.robgray.com

2stl

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Serial/USB is how to send the data to the PC and a different issue to decoding the switches.

I know, but I would connect the cables directly into the PC if i had enough ports.

Quote

Do you have access to two wires from each switch?

Nope, one wire is common (don't know if is correct to say this) for all the switches. I have acces to only one wire from each switch.


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Nothing immediatey springs to mind except 30 shift registers Smiley but there's bound to be some keyboard decoder chips out there.

Maybe there's a simple way to "expand" the io ports in Arduino :D.

Thanks.

P_Wood

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Maybe there's a simple way to "expand" the io ports in Arduino Cheesy.

..Parallel in - Serial Out shift registers. Lots of them.

2stl

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..Parallel in - Serial Out shift registers. Lots of them.
What? Sorry, but i'm software programmer. I know almost nothing about electronics :(. I wonder if this is the right way for me... I'm not giving up though.

Thanks.

Graynomad

#9
Aug 13, 2010, 04:50 pm Last Edit: Aug 13, 2010, 04:51 pm by graynomad Reason: 1
Parallel In Serial Out (PISO) shift registers take 8 inputs and shift them serially out from one pin. You can hook as many as you like together, so in your case you would connect 28 of them in a line, pulse one of the Arduino pins 28*8 times while reading another pin and saving a byte every 8 pulses.

At the end of this you have 28 bytes in RAM that represent the state of 224 inputs.

It's easy to do and will only need 3 pins, but presumably you will be playing music so the only problem is that as a C function it might be too slow if you are expecting an instant response.
Rob Gray aka the GRAYnomad www.robgray.com

deSilva

#10
Aug 13, 2010, 05:12 pm Last Edit: Aug 14, 2010, 12:19 am by mpeuser Reason: 1
No need to speculate...Using standard Arduino techniques takes 150us to shift in one bit. The whole lot thus will need 36 ms = 1/28 sec which is a noticeable time for the ear (and even for the eye). It can be done faster, but there will be a lot of processing involved anyhow, not to speak of sending the data, though you will send the differences only of course....

The build-up and wiring of 28 chips on a PCB is also not an easy task for someone with little experience.

There are 16 bit PISOs though (http://www.unicornelectronics.com/ftp/Data%20Sheets/74ls674.pdf) but a little bit difficult to find...

Alas, the common ground of the switches prevents any sensible matrix design....


----
Edit some hours after..
Sorry this was a slip of my memory. I checked it with a scope: It takes 14 us only for 2 digitalWrite and 1 digital Read

deSilva

#11
Aug 13, 2010, 05:29 pm Last Edit: Aug 13, 2010, 05:44 pm by mpeuser Reason: 1
All right, there is another not so well known appproach, using an analogue technique. You can add a resistor to each of the keys to a common voltage, adding the current through them. As you have to identify multiple keys, the values have to be logarithmic which limits this approach to less than 10 keys

1MOhm - 470k - 220k- 100k - 47k - 22k - 10k - 4k7 - 2k2 - 1k

You can use 6 ADC lines to have 60 keys.....

Critically viewed the 10 bit resolution of the ADCs will not really suffice to cover that range reliably...

---
Second thought: It is easy to expand the ADC to more lines, as the 6 provided lines are multiplexed anyhow. This needs a quite popular chip as 74HC4051 (1to8-analogue multiplexer). So by using 5 of them to 5 Arduino analogue ports you have 40 lines, each connected to a resistor network of 8 (from 470k to 2k2) giving you 320 inputs.

I have not yet calculated what time the decoding will take. Most likely not so much, as most of the time most keys will be open which can be easily detected....

zoomkat

Search the board for "multiplex" for ideas for inputting a large number of inputs. You can read the switches this way, but only one at a time.
Consider the daffodil. And while you're doing that, I'll be over here, looking through your stuff.   8)

2stl

Quote
Parallel In Serial Out (PISO) shift registers take 8 inputs and shift them serially out from one pin. You can hook as many as you like together, so in your case you would connect 28 of them in a line, pulse one of the Arduino pins 28*8 times while reading another pin and saving a byte every 8 pulses.

At the end of this you have 28 bytes in RAM that represent the state of 224 inputs.

It's easy to do and will only need 3 pins, but presumably you will be playing music so the only problem is that as a C function it might be too slow if you are expecting an instant response.


Thanks for the detailed explanation.

Too bad it doesn't fit my needs though.


Quote
Second thought: It is easy to expand the ADC to more lines, as the 6 provided lines are multiplexed anyhow. This needs a quite popular chip as 74HC4051 (1to8-analogue multiplexer). So by using 5 of them to 5 Arduino analogue ports you have 40 lines, each connected to a resistor network of 8 (from 470k to 2k2) giving you 320 inputs.

I have not yet calculated what time the decoding will take. Most likely not so much, as most of the time most keys will be open which can be easily detected....


Wow! Seems the way to go... I even found something similar using this method:
http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2008/05/build_the_arduino_pocket.html

However, as a beginner, I would like to study some tutorial-style documentation about this, so, if anyone can point me some good ones (i'm interested about the "piso" also) i'll be very gateful.

Thank you very much guys!

AWOL

#14
Aug 13, 2010, 06:55 pm Last Edit: Aug 13, 2010, 06:58 pm by AWOL Reason: 1
Does it really take 150us to clock in a single  bit from a shift register?
That's an awful long time, and of the order of the same sort of time between analogue readings.
"Pete, it's a fool looks for logic in the chambers of the human heart." Ulysses Everett McGill.
Do not send technical questions via personal messaging - they will be ignored.

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