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Robin2

My problem with laws like these ...
I see that you wisely deleted the the bit about leaving the judges to figure it out for themselves :)

...R
Two or three hours spent thinking and reading documentation solves most programming problems.

Delta_G

No, I still think letting judges decide what is or is not a scam is better than trying to anticipate the laws.  The part I wanted to delete was the part about words because I don't think you can count on everyone to read that bit for what it was and not just see that a certain word was mentioned and suddenly decide to be offended. 

I really do think that with some crimes it isn't possible to write a law ahead of time to capture every possible instance.  It's not like this with things that are perfectly black and white, like murder.  You either killed the guy or you didn't.  But with something like a scam where there is a HUGE gray area between obvious scam and perfectly legit, you do better to rely on the fact that you know one when you see one.  Especially when measuring after the fact.  Otherwise you get so many instances of both people who are obviously scamming but managed to skirt the law and get away and also instances of people who had perfectly legit motives but happened to miss one fine point of the law as written. 

I'm reminded of the little girl here in the US who was recently arrested for running a lemonade stand without a business license.  I think we can all see that she wasn't a threat to our way of life, but technically she did break the law.  And I think the law should be allowed to see that sort of thing and not just blindly apply words of men and women that could never have  forseen the situation they're being applied to. 

I also believe that these sorts of things should be more local in nature.  We should as a community be able to decide what is best and right in our community.  And we should have the state there to handle matters between communities. 

The problem with a single government system for everyone is that if you don't like it you're stuck.  In the old days if you didn't like how your community did things you could move somewhere else.  Now, you can't get away from it.  THEY decide this is right and that is wrong and if you don't like it tough.  It would be fine if human nature was always altruistic.  But it isn't.  Majority rule for a whole nation sucks if you're not part of the majority.  Ask any of the many African Americans struggling to deal with laws written specifically to target them in the US today.  Well, the majority wanted it so it is right...  at least that is how this system sees it.  And that's not always the case. 

Local control doesn't guarantee that everything gets done right, but it does mean that the wrongs tend not to be on quite as large of a scale. 
|| | ||| | || | ||  ~Woodstock

Please do not PM with technical questions or comments.  Keep Arduino stuff out on the boards where it belongs.

Robin2

No, I still think letting judges decide what is or is not a scam is better than trying to anticipate the laws.
Judges are not immune from bribery and corruption any more than anyone else. Among other things laws allow us to hold the judges to account.

However my comment about laws to regulate cookies arose from concerns about breaches of privacy rather than the activity of criminal scammers. of course if it make life a bit more difficult for the scammers, so much the better.

...R
Two or three hours spent thinking and reading documentation solves most programming problems.

Delta_G

Yes judge says can be bribed.  But which is worse, a local judge gets bribed and the people in one town suffer for it, or a legislator gets bribed and everyone in the whole country suffers for it?   At least with judges you gotta spread your bribes around a bit.  Right now there's a one stop shop.   


And your point about cookies was exactly my point.  It won't protect privacy, at least not for long.  Now, cookies are a little more inconvenient.  But the problems that they originally solved still remain.  Pretty soon there will be something that helps to solve those same problems but doesn't bother you with a pop-up every time.  People will love it.  They are already hating the pop-up ( see another thread in this section).  Once that thing comes out it will be safe.  Until it isn't.  Until someone figures out how to use it to breach your privacy.  Then we will wait for years until they make a new law and push that thing out of vogue and something even newer and more dangerous comes along.  That law will literally push things down the path to less privacy.  You watch. 
|| | ||| | || | ||  ~Woodstock

Please do not PM with technical questions or comments.  Keep Arduino stuff out on the boards where it belongs.

Robin2

Yes judge says can be bribed.  But which is worse, a local judge gets bribed and the people in one town suffer for it, or a legislator gets bribed and everyone in the whole country suffers for it?
The difference is that judges often work alone whereas legislators (in democracies) don't.

I am not claiming the "rule" system is perfect, or even good - just the best that is available. And I have no doubt that there are some silly laws, and laws that people don't like, but having been a civil servant helping to create laws I do believe that the people who create them do so with the best of intentions.

...R
Two or three hours spent thinking and reading documentation solves most programming problems.

ballscrewbob

#20
Oct 20, 2018, 02:23 pm Last Edit: Oct 20, 2018, 02:28 pm by ballscrewbob
Throwing this in the wind

And if you dig  even just a little you will see they have already found ways around the EU rules from as far back as 2013. Well before the rule was implemented.

Quote
I do believe that the people who create them do so with the best of intentions.
Like the EU "standardised cabbage" ? Or the EU "curvature of bananas allowed to be sold" rules ?
Both of which were modified quite quickly as rules would go.

Now don't get me wrong here as the ORIGINAL INTENTION of the EU was a fine thing for a "COMMON MARKET" but it has burgeoned out of control with almost zero accountability and become a bureaucratic nightmare.

Time for a complete REBOOT !

It may not be the answer you were looking for but its the one I am giving based on either experience, educated guess, google or the fact that you gave nothing to go with in the first place so I used my wonky crystal ball.

Delta_G

#21
Oct 20, 2018, 05:19 pm Last Edit: Oct 20, 2018, 05:29 pm by Delta_G
The difference is that judges often work alone whereas legislators (in democracies) don't.

I am not claiming the "rule" system is perfect, or even good - just the best that is available. And I have no doubt that there are some silly laws, and laws that people don't like, but having been a civil servant helping to create laws I do believe that the people who create them do so with the best of intentions.

...R
Don't get hung on judge vs legislator.  What I really mean is local vs federal. 

See, my local legislators and judges and city counsel, they have another BIG advantage over the congressman working in Washington or wherever.  They are directly answerable to me.  I know where they live and where they go to church and if they are cheating and taking bribes I, and my community, can directly handle that.  I can go straight to them and talk about it.  Or fight about it if need be.  They have incentive to do me right because they're right here with me. 

My congressman is untouchable.  Even if he does completely piss off everyone in my community by say approving the dumping of toxic waste or sewage (real situation) then there's still nothing that can be done.  I can't talk directly to him.  I can't approach him.  I'd probably get arrested just trying to get in the building.  The congressman in Washington is completely insulated from me or ever having to face anything that he has done to me or my community.  They have no incentive to worry about me, only themselves. 

And don't talk about voting.  If people cared enough to educate themselves and know what they were voting about and for then maybe that could help.  But today people just pick team read or team blue based entirely on cultural feelings and votes with no regard for what it really means.  I think that's all easier when you're dealing with people who you know personally and not characters who make themselves out to be whatever they want to be on TV commercials and flyers on your door knob.  Either way, the process of the vote has been lost, in the US at least.  I am for a IQ test before people are allowed to vote.  Maybe not IQ, but some sort of test that determines if you are aware of what is going on and not just picking R's or D's indiscriminately. 

Either way, my point is that more control in the hands of local governments and a state government that only deals with matters between communities and a federal government that only deals with matters between states would be a better way. 

Quote
I do believe that the people who create them do so with the best of intentions.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions they say.  Only when those people learn to understand that they CAN'T anticipate any situation and stop trying to make a one-size-fits-all law that takes all human feeling and judgement out of the equation.  There are a great many people who have run afoul of those same laws who had just as good if not better intentions.  Those intentions should count for something more than the letters of the law. 

And no, I don't believe for one second that the legislators in Washington have anything of good intention for me.  They are ONLY concerned with getting themselves re-elected and garnering votes.  To get votes you don't have to have your constituents best interests in mind anymore.  We've broken our democracy with our refusal to abate our ignorance and it just doesn't work that way anymore.  Now to get votes all the congressman needs to do is put on the right face every few years and claim that the other guy is a (pick one of the many buzzwords here).  Make claims and nobody will check.  And anyone who does check, call them "fake media" and the ones on our side will certainly agree because they'd rather agree with something stupid than to admit that they were wrong. 

The whole thing is broken. 
|| | ||| | || | ||  ~Woodstock

Please do not PM with technical questions or comments.  Keep Arduino stuff out on the boards where it belongs.

Robin2

The whole thing is broken. 

Let me know when you get it fixed. :)  :)

...R
Two or three hours spent thinking and reading documentation solves most programming problems.

lestofante

#23
Oct 31, 2018, 11:45 pm Last Edit: Nov 01, 2018, 12:07 am by lestofante
None of that crap here in NZ (yet).

Does this have to do with that stupid ass-covering EU cookie law?
Every dumbass must know by now that every site tries to sell your information to whoever wants to pay for it.
If you don't want that, you shouldn't use the internet at all.
Leo..
is not about cookie, the GDPR is about tracking any personal information, and he fine are up to 5% of global yearly profit. You may be ok to have internet counting how hairy is your back, here in EU we don-t like it and trying to change the game

Sure you've made people tell when they're using cookies
you are confusing the GDPR (new) with the old cookie law. The GDPR is not only about cookie or even internet, but about privacy in all its form, like how company has to keep save personal information about its emploee, customer, and all this kind of stuff. Please before giving sentence be sure you know what you are talking about.

́@Delta_G: EU may not be perfect, but to have some chance to stay relevant against the political and economical power like US, Russia, China, India... you cant't only think of your garden hoping what happen around you will never influence you.
Hopefully before we will have a "global order" we will have escaped this gravity well.
Meanwhile i say thanks to EU for the Euro, so i can travel without problem changing money(ever had to change money? they commission are a steal!), without having to pass any frontier, of course with my free healthcare valid by default everywhere (i would need to apply if i come to US for a special extension), to place an order without paying any tax over my state VAT (30% more from china for more than ~30euro order), that I can work and live abroad without any special permission/green card or such (and i guess my boss is happy too), that my mobile internet offer is valid in any state for no cost (ah the day to find a free wifi to check for a nice place to eat, find an alternative for a cancelled train, or simply tell your love you arrive and all is fine).. and those are only the thing i directly deal with day by day.
Guida per principianti http://playground.arduino.cc/Italiano/newbie
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ballscrewbob

#24
Nov 01, 2018, 12:10 am Last Edit: Nov 01, 2018, 12:10 am by ballscrewbob
Wait I have hair on my back !
Dang I never knew that but it will be a low count anyway ;)
Tie knots on the chest ones so they dont sneak back in...up to about 6 now.

It may not be the answer you were looking for but its the one I am giving based on either experience, educated guess, google or the fact that you gave nothing to go with in the first place so I used my wonky crystal ball.

lestofante

Wait I have hair on my back !
Dang I never knew that but it will be a low count anyway ;)
Tie knots on the chest ones so they dont sneak back in...up to about 6 now.


This set of rules are mostly to let people know hat is collected and force the company to use adequate measure to protect the data.

Of course there is no perfect security, but we want to avoid an new Equifax scandal, no?

We want to avoid boss staring to monitor its personal on how many times you go to the bathroom while working, what you do after work... because GDPR is also about those stuff, the changes on Internet is almost a "side effect".
Guida per principianti http://playground.arduino.cc/Italiano/newbie
Unoffical Telegram group https://t.me/genuino

Delta_G

#26
Nov 04, 2018, 04:47 pm Last Edit: Nov 04, 2018, 04:49 pm by Delta_G
Quote
you are confusing the GDPR (new) with the old cookie law. The GDPR is not only about cookie or even internet, but about privacy in all its form, like how company has to keep save personal information about its emploee, customer, and all this kind of stuff. Please before giving sentence be sure you know what you are talking about.
No I was just pointing at the cookie law.  The rest will be the same.  Things will be better for a short time and then the nefarious forces that be will figure their way around the law and the law will be useless. 

The answer isn't a law.  The answer is for the people to take their information hygiene into their own hands.  If you don't want these people to have your information, then stop giving it to them.  Stop blindly using tools you don't understand on the internet.  Or at least educate yourself on how they work.  Remember, all that added convenience ALWAYS comes at a cost.  TNSTAAFL.  If you aren't paying for the product then YOU ARE THE PRODUCT.

I'm not saying the rule is bad.  I'm just saying that if you're relying on it to keep your information safe then you are a fool.  The only person whose behavior you can control is yourself. 
|| | ||| | || | ||  ~Woodstock

Please do not PM with technical questions or comments.  Keep Arduino stuff out on the boards where it belongs.

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