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Topic: Chinese clones (Read 13320 times) previous topic - next topic

GoForSmoke

Yah. PayPal charged me IIRC 1% on a $164 purchase last December.

I can't afford to buy $100 in Arduino boards just to give then $20 or so. Sorry but that's how it is. Maybe they could sell expensive coffee mugs or something?
Nick Gammon on multitasking Arduinos:
1) http://gammon.com.au/blink
2) http://gammon.com.au/serial
3) http://gammon.com.au/interrupts


Maybe they could sell expensive coffee mugs or something?


Actually, merchandising is a good way to get some funding and publicizing whatever products you "give" away. :)

Look at Ubuntu for example:

http://shop.canonical.com/
Eu não sou o teu criado. Se respondo no fórum é para ajudar todos mediante a minha disponibilidade e disposição. Responder por mensagem pessoal iria contra o propósito do fórum e por isso evito-o.
Se realmente pretendes que eu te ajude por mensagem pessoal, então podemos chegar a um acordo e contrato onde me pagas pela ajuda que eu fornecer e poderás então definir os termos de confidencialidade do meu serviço. De forma contrária toda e qualquer ajuda que eu der tem de ser visível a todos os participantes do fórum (será boa ideia, veres o significado da palavra fórum).
Nota também que eu não me responsabilizo por parvoíces escritas neste espaço pelo que se vais seguir algo dito por mim, entende que o farás por tua conta e risco.

Dito isto, mensagens pessoais só se forem pessoais, ou seja, se já interagimos de alguma forma no passado ou se me pretendes convidar para uma churrascada com cerveja (paga por ti, obviamente).

GoForSmoke

Nick Gammon on multitasking Arduinos:
1) http://gammon.com.au/blink
2) http://gammon.com.au/serial
3) http://gammon.com.au/interrupts

bperrybap


Just have to add something here.  It's crazy when people use "Chinese" to imply low-quality products, especially regarding electronics.  The fact is, China is the worldwide center of excellence for electronics manufacturing.  If you missed it, see the NY Times' article, How the U.S. Lost Out on iPhone Work.  Yes there are low-quality counterfeit products to be had from China.  It's a big country.  We shouldn't tar the whole country's industry on the basis of the bad actors.

Constantin


Just have to add something here.  It's crazy when people use "Chinese" to imply low-quality products, especially regarding electronics.  The fact is, China is the worldwide center of excellence for electronics manufacturing.  If you missed it, see the NY Times' article, How the U.S. Lost Out on iPhone Work.  Yes there are low-quality counterfeit products to be had from China.  It's a big country.  We shouldn't tar the whole country's industry on the basis of the bad actors.

I couldn't agree more. Manufacturing is a passion of mine and I see no reason why location has to determine anything re: quality. It's all about the people, the systems they are given, the quality of the design, suppliers, etc. not the country it's made in. Otherwise, we'd be seeing things in the USA like differential sticker pricing based on whether a Toyota was made in the USA or Japan. (That used to be the case for VW, BTW). Even 'small' car brands like Porsche can have multiple, multi-national manufacturing sites and the only clue re: origin is the VIN number.

But let me use a better example, one that many of us are familiar with, PCB manufacturing. I've used DorkBot PDX and Iteadstudio. Which of the two do you suppose allows you to run smaller lines, gaps, and holes? Which is the faster service? You'd think the locals would have the advantage here, and they don't. I don't even mind the significant $/in^2 upcharge on a per-board basis, this is prototyping after all, but the slower service is starting to get to me.

I have nothing but the highest respect for Laen for running this service of his, but two boards I submitted weeks ago still have not even garnered a response from him while the folks at iTeadstudio replied within minutes even though their New Year celebrations are going on. Granted, the boards won't be made until Feb 1, but at least they will be made. It's hard to stay in business if you don't respond to customers. Nuts.

westfw

"Chinese clone" is more of a statement about lax adherence to intellectual property law (and custom) than a statement about quality...


Constantin

#37
Jan 30, 2012, 01:00 pm Last Edit: Jan 30, 2012, 01:19 pm by Constantin Reason: 1

"Chinese clone" is more of a statement about lax adherence to intellectual property law (and custom) than a statement about quality...


Spot on. That said, the extremes to which special interests have been able to pervert copyright law (120 years?) and patent law (business models, software?) in the west is not healthy either.

Note how the titans of the tech industry now pursue an oligopolistic system where they cross-license all sorts of patents as a means of limiting market entry by others who are not in 'the club', i.e. non-tariff barrier to entry. Patent trolls are thriving, owning a lot of IP, but not making any attempt to actually manufacture something.

But, as long as it's as cheap as it is to buy votes in Congress with money in the right places and some tearful testimony and/or a healthy dose of testilying, special interests will continue to make end-runs around the interests of the public. Unlike limited, and hence notable exceptions, I haven't seen anyone demonstrate in public re: perversions like ACTA, SOPA, PIPA, etc. So, copyrights will keep getting extended to keep Mickey Mouse out of the public domain an as a result, stagnation will set in.

GoForSmoke

For a very long time IBM has been patenting and making those patents public, at least partly to keep a clear road to a future. Yeah there's weasels and if you look at IP laws the corruption is plain but it's not everybody or even everybody big.

Nick Gammon on multitasking Arduinos:
1) http://gammon.com.au/blink
2) http://gammon.com.au/serial
3) http://gammon.com.au/interrupts

Constantin

Patents have their place and are an important part of pushing science forward by creating a financial incentive to pursue all sorts of research with the hope that something will come of it. Some companies now derive 100% of their value from patents - see Kodak and Nortel, for example. IIRC, Micron Technologies sold off its entire IP portfolio to a patent troll to monetize it.

That said, allow me to disagree a bit with your statement that not only the big guys benefit. A good friend of mine was sued in patent court, left penniless, before the other side dropped all charges before a judgement would be rendered (because they would have lost). A small inventor has no hope of prevailing against the big guns unless he/she can enlist the help of a patent troll with their resources (though for a pretty commission, I am sure). It comes down to not only being able to claim a patent but also to defend it.

This is yet another instance where I wish the US would feature the 'loser pays' policy for civil trials used in the EU to keep frivolous suits out of the courts and to level the playing field between big and small parties at the negotiating table. In the US, if the stakes are high enough, it simply pays to bankrupt a smaller opponent through court costs rather than pay for the royalties. A perversion of justice for sure but a daily reality also.

Benji

The 'chinese clone' term is more a term than a fact.
However, it is true that there are a lot of factories in China that sell rubbish, I don't think anybody will disagree with me on that.
Most of the factories that do sell high quality products, do need to be told EXACTLY what to do.
If you forget to tell them 'only drill this hole 1.5mm deep' and just say drill a hole in A for screw B, they'll drill all the way down, for example.
They need exact specs, exact instructions, they don't or won't understand that if you have a 3mm screw and it goes into a topcase with a 1.5mm screw terminal, into a bottom case with a 1.5mm screw terminal, that drilling down 8mm is not the logical way.

I bought an official UNO when I started out with Arduino's, just because I thought it would be better than any clone.
When I make a project I usually just buy a preprogrammed chip (I'm lazy, don't judge  :D ) and intergrate it in the circuit, leaving my UNO open for prototyping or playing with my robot (which is more convenient to use with a full board, since I use a motorshield, I need to make an intergrated board for it someday).

There isn't any reason not to buy a clone board, I know now, except for sponsoring the Arduino dev's. And that, to me, is a very good reason to spend some extra €€'s, maybe then we'll see the Due some day :D

hardcore

I have a lot of experience in this field as regards chinese manufacturing, IP theft, cloning, Counterfeiting ...Etc...Etc.

I also sell Arduino boards and shields manufactured in China , but I have over 20 years EXP. in manufacturing and QA, i'm also active in supporting code/libraries.

Many (read most) of the suppliers on Ebay are using de-speced chips, and 'suspect' Manufacturing practices.
To go into the subject in any depth would take  several hundred pages.

Basically .. you's pays ur money and you's take your chances.
Many of these sellers are actually individuals or a small group of people with a production line. Unlike the States , you can build a production line with 1-3 people, however most of the people involved know absolutely NOTHING about electronics or even the products they are manufacturing, they instead buy 'kits' from a supplier and add in an assembly markup, now this is where it gets interesting.
In any production environment you WILL get defects, there are four ways to deal with this situation.

1. Hire an engineer to correct.
2. Dump at your loss.
3. Sell defective products to market. (short life business model, but Ideal for Ebay)
4. Sell on as KNOW defective to a 3rd party.

Number 4 is the interesting one, since this 'scrap' gets sold on at 'cost' (you see this extensively in the USB stick market, where the manufactured cost of a Ebay usb stick is  less than ONE us$).
The buyer then attempts to repair what they can but sells on the defects to another party... and so on and so on..... until the absolute dregs are left, but this is STILL NOT THE END.
The scrap is then heated, chips removed ,cleaned and re-entered as virgin product ready to go into the 'kits' at the start of the process.

So what you get on Ebay MIGHT be the initial product as is good from the assembly team OR it may have passed through 200 people as repair scrap.

Some of the people involved in this have full-time jobs and either skive off,take the 'work' to their work or work in their spare time.

I have several thousand photographs collected over the last 20 years of virtually every Con/dodgy practice and stupidity known to man, some of these practices make Amoeba look like they have the mental capacity of S.Hawkins.

HC




retrolefty

Quote
I also sell Arduino boards and shields manufactured in China , but I have over 20 years EXP. in manufacturing and QA, i'm also active in supporting code/libraries.


So the quality of the stuff you sell is OK?



GoForSmoke


Most of the factories that do sell high quality products, do need to be told EXACTLY what to do.
If you forget to tell them 'only drill this hole 1.5mm deep' and just say drill a hole in A for screw B, they'll drill all the way down, for example.
They need exact specs, exact instructions,


"Fabricators build to spec" isn't exactly news. What you don't spec is open to interpretation. That's why there are draftsmen and technical drawings, for people who want certain things.

Here's another surprise. Computers do exactly the instructions you give.
Nick Gammon on multitasking Arduinos:
1) http://gammon.com.au/blink
2) http://gammon.com.au/serial
3) http://gammon.com.au/interrupts

hardcore


Quote
I also sell Arduino boards and shields manufactured in China , but I have over 20 years EXP. in manufacturing and QA, i'm also active in supporting code/libraries.


So the quality of the stuff you sell is OK?


Yes, obviously...,but since I'm not supplying crap it also means that I cannot match the lowest price on Ebay.

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