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Topic: Raspberry Pi launch farce (Read 22456 times) previous topic - next topic

Osgeld


you are forgetting the composed video output. A scart adapter like the one used for old PS and you are done with 99% of TV around the world.


obviously one who has not spent much time in 80 column text let alone a graphics environment using standard issue TV's, it took me 3 years of trying random tv's before I found a LCD unit that was readable under those conditions. I would also like to point out that used PC's dont up and vanish either, all of a sudden it seems rather silly getting these boards together, along with adapters, monitors that really dont exist, and fighting with a wonky linux install when one can buy a pallette of pizza box P4's for 5 bucks a pop at habitat for humanity. All while providing something more useful, education on computers and software that the majority of the world uses.

This "education" angle has baffled me since day one, as its utter nonsense.
http://arduino.cc/forum/index.php?action=unread;boards=2,3,4,5,67,6,7,8,9,10,11,66,12,13,15,14,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28,29,30,86,87,89,1;ALL

lesto

i don't get your complain. obviously it is not the same resolution you'll use on a PC, but still usable.
BTW due to mass production, i think cathodic TV are now more expansive than LCD one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36GvPxbAiv8
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westfw

Quote
is it teaching Unix or microcontrollers?

IIRC, the original intent was to teach "programming", using python (thus the name.)
I've never understood why an old (free) PC wasn't a better choice, either.  Perhaps it has something to do with "expectations."  If you have a PC and it doesn't download video and play flash games, it's essentially 'broken.'  But a business-card sized computer might make people happy even if all it can do is run a python interpreter...

Nick Gammon

You know, looking at the specs for the BBC Micro:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BBC_Micro

(Model A)

RAM: 16 Kb
ROM: 32 Kb
Disk: none
Ports: serial/parallel/user/analog ... all optional extras

You would think you could make something similar these days with an Atmega1284P which has:

RAM: 16 Kb
Flash: 128 Kb
EEPROM: 4 Kb
Ports: 32, including SPI, I2C, serial, ADC, PWM x 6, timers x 4

Throw in a keyboard interface (eg. USB or PS2), and some sort of video output, and you could make something that could be a "PC in a box".
The Flash could have a Basic (or Pascal or similar) interpreter on it.
You could use an SD card to store files.
Please post technical questions on the forum, not by personal message. Thanks!

More info:
http://www.gammon.com.au/electronics

Osgeld


i don't get your complain. obviously it is not the same resolution you'll use on a PC, but still usable.
BTW due to mass production, i think cathodic TV are now more expansive than LCD one.


yea I cant read that, so its unusable to me, and you forget they have made CRT tv's for half a century now so price is not an issue, its quality
http://arduino.cc/forum/index.php?action=unread;boards=2,3,4,5,67,6,7,8,9,10,11,66,12,13,15,14,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28,29,30,86,87,89,1;ALL

AWOL

Quote
you are forgetting the composed video output. A scart adapter like the one used for old PS and you are done with 99% of TV around the world.

You are forgetting that most school computer labs will be equipped with PC monitors with VGA inputs.
Not many of those have composite inputs.

Did SCART ever catch on outside of Europe?

The BBC micro had an 80 character video mode; that was virtually unusable on a composite input too, unless you had a really good chroma filter - you really needed a dedicated mono monitor to use that mode.

"Pete, it's a fool looks for logic in the chambers of the human heart." Ulysses Everett McGill.
Do not send technical questions via personal messaging - they will be ignored.

lesto

never used CRT tv as monitor, so if you say it is unable i trust you. (but it sound really  strange to me, i think at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teletext (uhh teletext... always though it was called televideo, we never stop to learn  :)))

for SCART i through it was an international standard de facto. but if you don't have scart, youìll have something else, and instead of PS converter you'll use some other converter, and i think it will never be more expansive than 10/15€... or how are supposed to play with PS/xbox outside the europe?!
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AWOL

I'm not sure why you're introducing Teletext into the mix - that was only something like 30 or 40 characters across, and 20 to  25 down.
"Pete, it's a fool looks for logic in the chambers of the human heart." Ulysses Everett McGill.
Do not send technical questions via personal messaging - they will be ignored.

lesto

because it is an usable charset/resolution(i don't know how to call it) for all tv.
if you can program complex system with 80 character column, you can program hello world with 40, no?

and i still think is a false problem about CRT, just because if you can't afford a new tv/monitor, then the advantage of rasp price are for the school
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Grumpy_Mike

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you can program hello world with 40, no?

No.

The whole Pi / price argument reminds me of stone soup.

Ran Talbott


I've never understood why an old (free) PC wasn't a better choice, either.

Because it costs more than using something like an RPi.

Each of those PCs is going to have its own mix of peripherals, unless you're lucky enough to get a uniform batch from that call center that just got outsourced to India.  So each is going to need its software to be individually configured.  If you're using Windoze, there's a good chance that they'll be licensed for different versions.  Which means they'll be developing their own particular problems that the IT person needs to know about and solve.  Ask anyone adminning a mixed fleet of a couple dozen or more to tell you about it.  But be sure you bring a designated driver, because you'll need at least 3 or 4 rounds of beers to get through the horror stories.

Plus they need constant updating and monitoring to keep your computer lab from turning into a platoon in a botnet.

And,  since they're old, a significantly higher percentage of them will develop hardware problems that need to be diagnosed and fixed (or, at least triaged to decide whether they're going to be e-cycled).

Ran Talbott


Still, is it teaching Unix or microcontrollers?

It could be either, or both. Or neither: as I mentioned in my earlier reply there is a large segment of embedded Linux applications that fall in between "PC-like" and "Arduino-like". And there will be many, many more in future: as CPU power gets cheaper, things that are currently "luxuries" (like talking+listening cars and fridges that monitor their contents and download shopping lists to smartphones) will move further down into the middle class mass market.

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If Unix, you can probably get some cheap second-hand PCs which people throw out when they upgrade to Windows 8 or whatever.


"Probably" may be marginally-sufficient if you're trying to put together a lab for the 4 or 5 geeks in your neighborhood Boy Scout troop.  It doesn't come anywhere close if you're trying to plan a curriculum even for a single school, much less a district or a whole state.  It's one of many approaches (like scrounging motors from old printers) that are great for one hacker, or a few, but don't scale up. Especially when you're trying to get them implemented by teachers who are only semi-geeky (if that).

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If what I have seen locally is anything to go by, the Education Department will mandate that every school uses Windows, so the question might be a bit academic.


Prosecute a few of them for treason.  That'll wise 'em up  ]:D

Grumpy_Mike

There are getting very jumpy over at the Pi forum, I just had a thread closed down, I was answering questions on the current capabilities of the GPIO pins.

Stock question and answer over here but it is a bit of a taboo subject over there apparently:-
http://www.raspberrypi.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=8668

Nick Gammon

Yes I see what you mean. They get worked up if you ask for the documentation, don't they?

Quote
The whole Pi / price argument reminds me of stone soup.


Yes, it's a nice cheap platform, until you add an HDMI-capable monitor, a keyboard, buy an SD card, download the software and copy it to the card (for which you need a PC/Mac), find a power supply that is not underpowered, and a micro-USB cable without too much internal resistance.

Then you try to program it without the datasheet for the video processor chip.

I wish them well, honestly. But the NDA stuff makes me increasingly annoyed, personally.

I've stopped developing stuff for the iPhone/iPad because you can't just write software and distribute it. You have to get developer certificates (provisioning profiles) through a process that is complex, if not tedious. Then to sell something (like a game for the iPhone) it has to be "approved" by Apple before you can.

I suppose the sticking point in making something like the BBC Micro would be to get decent video output ... the very chip on the Pi that has the NDA slapped on it. My personal attempts to get video out of an Arduino (here) gave me 30 lines x 20 columns in monochrome. Still, if Steve Wozniak can make a pretty good display on the Apple II in 1980, surely it can be done cheaply these days? One possible solution is the http://www.microvga.com/ which uses a PLA or similar to do colour graphics.
Please post technical questions on the forum, not by personal message. Thanks!

More info:
http://www.gammon.com.au/electronics

lesto

you are right about disclosure, but there are actually provided firmware for some application (opengl), we can just hope the DS will be public.
But i understand that this will (actually we have to work to make distribution usable) be a problem

Quote
Yes, it's a nice cheap platform, until you add an HDMI-capable monitor, a keyboard, buy an SD card, download the software and copy it to the card (for which you need a PC/Mac), find a power supply that is not underpowered, and a micro-USB cable without too much internal resistance.


if you look at the most expanse things obviously it will cost. my cheap mouse +keybord is sold for 10€(and is wireless), SD (4gb) with pre-loaded SO is sold for 10€, HDMI cable i'm using was 5€ at supermarket (or 2€ RCA), suggested alimentator is 5€..
total (also with expedition) is ~55€

add a basic monitor (less than 45€) and with 100€ you have a full system.


There are getting very jumpy over at the Pi forum, I just had a thread closed down, I was answering questions on the current capabilities of the GPIO pins.

Stock question and answer over here but it is a bit of a taboo subject over there apparently:-
http://www.raspberrypi.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=8668


i don't think this discussion was falling in conspiracy. (this discussion reminds me some discussion about the arduino DUE...).
It is not bad to talk about it, but i'm sure OT and almost all the forum is full of this kind of discussion.
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