What's your opinion on spending $50 on your kids education?

I came to the Arduino because I was asked by a friend to look at the programming for some gimmicks he wanted for model aircrafts. If you look at starting posts in the "Project Guidance" section, most start with:

I want to control my turbine car/aquarium/camera/projector/light gimmick/servos/garden/hydroponics/steel mill ...

  • or -
    I have seen a cool watch/PoV/robot/rocket launcher/blinking jacket / sensors inputs I want to recreate
  • or -
    I bought/inherited/found a description of a thing that works mostly, I just want to ...

And then they go on that they think the Arduino is the choice and how to get started with the tutorials, code fragments and circuit droppings they found on the Internet to make it happen. They don't really care about the Arduino itself, it just looks like the easiest way to get what they want.

The really great thing about the Arduino community isn't the the quality of information available, it's that in the beginner forums people get answers how to move closer to their goal. People get the feeling, that they aren't left alone utterly confused and bewildered.

To come back how to get people, specially children involved, is to do things with them they care about. And if those things need some microprocessor control to become better, you have your opening for the Arduino. It really doesn't matter what it is.

Korman

I agree, lots of people wanted to use arduino simply because they saw other people do cool things with stuff, and they were told arduino was involved. If they want to do those cool things themselves, they find themselves in the project guidance section. Later if they have success (the community factors a lot in their success), they start to think about arduino as a tool like a screw driver, or a car. They will start looking for projects they can use a screw driver for or places they can go on a car. That is the real fun. A person always looking forward for an adventure with electronics and mechanics can have a lot of fun.

I've been around here for 2 1/2 years now and have been amazed by how many different objectives the arduino can fill for users. There are experienced software types that have little or no electronics experience and just want to use the arduino to learn electronics. I've also seen experienced hardware types that want to use the arduino platform to learn software programming effectively. And as already posted some come here just to learn how to utilize an arduino to further their specific project goals.

Bottom line is the Arduino fills many different needs for different kinds of users. However the support from this forum has a lot to do with people being successful with their objectives no matter what they are.

Lefty

One thing I've thought a lot about, but unfortunately have no answer to, how... could one persuade more girls to start experimenting with electronics/arduino ?

From a male perspective it's hard not think... female -> lillypad -> Leds on clothing, but there should be a lot more making them think "Hey, that's interesting !".

The most logical I often met while working with 4-12 year old kids were... in fact the ladies. They do tend to get mature much faster and maybe gentlemen get more capable in technical stuff on the long run, but there should still be a lot of girls who're more then capable enough to understand and work with an Arduino.

Anyone have any ideas on this one ?

I have not read the whole discussion, but I still am adding my 2 cents, hope thats ok.

What does this list represent? Its just your personal opinion, right? You state the things as if they where facts, and I find that irritating...

Also, there where times in my teens where my mp3 player was probably my most valued posession, my music really helped me threw some rough times. I believe napstar and beeing exposed to multitudes of music and ganres was not only good for my sould and overall well beeing, imo it was also educational and broadend my horizon.

I have been into computer games since quite an early age, they where not so much the reason, but more like a consequence of beeing interested in computers. However, I soon realized that, a)civ2 did not allways act the way I wanted it to, and that b) I could make it act the way I wanted to.

So it was computergames, and not Arduino that introduced me to hacking.

edit: I say stupid, not fully thought threw, things sometimes. I just saved you from one of them :slight_smile:

If you want to make some "advertising flyer" for your educational kit, you should back it up with facts, and not with what you believe the generell consensus to be...

But yeah, I guess people have probably said that already. I just really wanted to point out that looking back at my teenage years, music definitvly was a positive influence and in generall I think computergames and up on the positive spectrum with me as well.

Cheers

p.

fkeel,

Read the freaking posts if you wish to speak. You may have mixed me up with someone else selling arduino kits or something but your attitude is not appreciated. Not reading the posts and lashing out your opinions is a form of trolling. I'm not interested in your opinions to say the least. It's irrelevant.

Simpson_Jr:
One thing I've thought a lot about, but unfortunately have no answer to, how... could one persuade more girls to start experimenting with electronics/arduino ?

From a male perspective it's hard not think... female -> lillypad -> Leds on clothing, but there should be a lot more making them think "Hey, that's interesting !".

The most logical I often met while working with 4-12 year old kids were... in fact the ladies. They do tend to get mature much faster and maybe gentlemen get more capable in technical stuff on the long run, but there should still be a lot of girls who're more then capable enough to understand and work with an Arduino.

Anyone have any ideas on this one ?

There seems to be large peer pressure to girls around middle school to conform to what other girls do. It's a difficult thing to break. I have 30 students in my electronics class and only 3 girls. Most of them are physics majors and some CS, MME, chemistry or math. It's been that way since maybe when my dad was in college some 53 years ago. Yes, there's more women engineers and scientists but you don't see anywhere near 50/50 man/woman.

I wish to go to high schools to demonstrate to those kids what science and engineering is about and there are very interesting topics but to make an impression to girls around age 12-15 I need girl presenters. I was presenting at a women engineering on campus event for that age range girls but after almost a full day of presenting, only less than 10 showed up. The campus organizers didn't do their work and I consider it was wasting my time to present three sessions to an average of 3 girls each session for 1 hours each.

Hell, I'm a guy. How should I blame them for only sending out registration forms to high schools? They should personally go the the high schools, show pictures of the past event and encourage more girls to come. You can't magically convert a bunch of girls from loving what society tells them to do as young girls into liking science-engineering subjects. This takes numerous time and effort. As of where arduino stands in this battle, I wish I had an answer. What projects may interest young girls of that age?! Any parents here? Anyone speaking their language? I know a lot of girls like biology, which could be a point of entry for arduino.

@liudr

I think your reaction to fkeel might be a bit too fast, let me explain. I see two things: the message and the form of the message. The form is what "triggered" you, without paying enough attention to his message. The form is just the carrier of the message and I have learned (as requirements engineer) to look through that. It is the difference between HOW people say WHAT they mean. So lets just focus on the message.

The message of fkeel is : "listen to the people you want to reach by looking at their context". Similar statements are made earlier in this thread an it means that (other recent post) if you want to reach girls in the age 12-15 you must understand about what in their context/mindset is important. Think everyone will agree on that as it is basic marketing - excuses for using the M word on a tech forum :wink:

The discussion should focus on how to reach them (boys and girls). The answer comes also from marketing (did it again :wink: and the word is seduction. The (not allways educative) power of commercials. If you can get a "I want that too" feeling, people go far to reach their goal. Seduction is about showing end-results, called products, and their benefits. A technique I often used to gather requirements was the persona. - read the book: The Inmates Are Running the Asylum, Alan Cooper -. Basically you describe a fictive customer in as much detail as possible and that person is the archetype for your whole customergroup. We often used 2-6 in projects, archetype per role.

A minimal persona: archetype Girl, 13 year - Linda, has one older brother Jason (bully), and a younger sister Kate (who wants to borrow her ..everything), live in a suburb, she does horseriding, is interested in makeup and clothing, wants a blackberry like her mother has, and an Ipad!. She is sloppy, forgets things and appointments ("You see, I really need that blackberry and all girls in class have one, please daddy?") Likes to shop for clothing, worries are about puberty and the first kiss she wants from justin Beeber, she listens to his music all day, goes to movies with schoolfriends, with whom she socializes a lot, tell them her secrets, write her secret secrets in her diary, she like pizza pepperoni, and dino's, she hate to do the dishes, likes drawing, etc ... [Got a picture?]

How can we seduce Linda for technique? What would she like to have to make her live happier?

Ok from the persona profile I can think of the following product concepts (that might include Arduino tech)

  • A detection system that shows that her sister Kate was in her room. Actually it shows if anyone was in her room. Better if someone is now in my room !
  • RFID tags in make-up to end discussion about "that is my lipstick Kate",
  • A detection system that warns when Jason is around,
  • A handbag she will never forget,
  • A something thingy to share secret messages with her friends,
  • A diary that only she can open ("Mom, that stupid Kate got my diary!!!")
  • ...
    (think you allready have ideas how to make these)

So with the help of the persona, we quickly identified six possible products that might seduce all 12-15 year old girls. They can buy it (10 minutes of fun in the mall) or you can make it yourself (hours of fun) and mind you, all those secret devices you buy in the Mall have the same password!!, they aren't secret at all!

By building these products and show them - they should look good, we're talking girls here - you might attract them into some tech.

I hope this does help your quest a bit ,

regards,
Rob

All interesting ideas here.

You can't magically convert a bunch of girls from loving what society tells them to do as young girls into liking science-engineering subjects. This takes numerous time and effort. As of where arduino stands in this battle, I wish I had an answer. What projects may interest young girls of that age?!

Very true.

female -> lillypad -> Leds on clothing

I personally think this is a poor idea that people seem to have. Maybe for a short time they might want clothing to light up but I think they'd be more interested on sewing material on to make the item of clothing look more like something made by gucci that something geeky that flashes.

Boys of a young(ish) age want to make things that move, blow things up, do things etc.
Girls of a young(ish) age (as said above) I can see being much more interested 'secret stuff', things that tell them something, hide something etc.
They are much harder to get interested in electronics, I do think that female presenters are a must - they really need someone of the same sex to get them properly interested and as a role model for them. As for specific projects, that's a hard one.

I started this:
http://collabedit.com/7cr9k
Feel free to change stuff around - lets see what people come up with. Stick your name in top right.
I'm a bit blank on ideas atm but I'll keep it open and try to add stuff when I think of it.
Ideally projects that use simple components and minimal coding but code could be mostly written beforehand and the students/children could have to modify pre-written code to do slightly different things or add to some pre-written code.

I think many of the ideas you guys are offering for "girl products" are still a tick too complex and techy. I think, if I would want to get a young girl started with electronics I would start without an arduino, but just getting her familiar with simple circuits. I think the perfect starting product would be lady ada's minty boost.

http://www.ladyada.net/make/mintyboost/

If I where to design new gadgets for girls, I would start from there - analyze why this was succesfull and create something with similar proporties. We see here, the usefullness of this itam is very obvious and direct, while the complexety of the design is low and very basic. Also, the overall design is smart and appealing.

p.

But the issue is that as a project to do - I wouldn't have thought it would be particularly appealing to girls - and teaching them how simple circuits work also need to be done in a way that's interesting. We're talking about trying to get non-geeky girls interested - I can see a geeky girl learning about this but that's not the point.

Look at the average - stereotype boy getting interested in electronics: Either they soaks it up from his environment where their parents / elder siblings play around with electronics or they fail to succeed at more popular topics like sports, so they choose a domain where the bullies won't go (because of the lack of status) or where they have a better chance at succeeding.

And make things even worse, people working in electronics aren't in most cases really the glamorous type, they have a bigger chance of being the misfit-type or the introverted type. In short, there are many people who spend a lot of time with their gadgets to succeed, which is time not spent with other people. This reduces the attraction of electronics (and similar solitary subjects) even further.

Now the big question: What does electronics offer to a girl? In most cases they already have easier areas to retreat to to get away or need it less.

From what I've seen, initiatives not providing at least some answer to this question don't really achieve much.

Korman

fkeel:
I think many of the ideas you guys are offering for "girl products" are still a tick too complex and techy. I think, if I would want to get a young girl started with electronics I would start without an arduino, but just getting her familiar with simple circuits. I think the perfect starting product would be lady ada's minty boost.

Minty Boost! - USB charger for your gadgets

If I where to design new gadgets for girls, I would start from there - analyze why this was succesfull and create something with similar proporties. We see here, the usefullness of this itam is very obvious and direct, while the complexety of the design is low and very basic. Also, the overall design is smart and appealing.

p.

That is a nice thing for USB people of all ages and sexes to carry. Not geeky-looking at all but geeky within. But how would a kid (boy or girl) be made interested in electronics from using this product? Maybe this is a new lead: making cooling things with non-so-geeky appearances. Then the users will be interested in exploring more tech stuff.

Korman:
Look at the average - stereotype boy getting interested in electronics: Either they soaks it up from his environment where their parents / elder siblings play around with electronics or they fail to succeed at more popular topics like sports, so they choose a domain where the bullies won't go (because of the lack of status) or where they have a better chance at succeeding.

And make things even worse, people working in electronics aren't in most cases really the glamorous type, they have a bigger chance of being the misfit-type or the introverted type. In short, there are many people who spend a lot of time with their gadgets to succeed, which is time not spent with other people. This reduces the attraction of electronics (and similar solitary subjects) even further.

Now the big question: What does electronics offer to a girl? In most cases they already have easier areas to retreat to to get away or need it less.

From what I've seen, initiatives not providing at least some answer to this question don't really achieve much.

Korman

Korman,
You made me =(
I wish I was popular in high school =( =( =(
Actually I was OK at least within my circle of friends but I can definitely see lots of young boys in your described stereotype. So they do electronics because they need some success they don't get from their muscles. Time for building exo-skeletal armors to interest them more? :grin: It's another good lead to be honest.

robtillaart:
@liudr

I think your reaction to fkeel might be a bit too fast, let me explain. I see two things: the message and the form of the message. The form is what "triggered" you, without paying enough attention to his message. The form is just the carrier of the message and I have learned (as requirements engineer) to look through that. It is the difference between HOW people say WHAT they mean. So lets just focus on the message.

The message of fkeel is : "listen to the people you want to reach by looking at their context". Similar statements are made earlier in this thread an it means that (other recent post) if you want to reach girls in the age 12-15 you must understand about what in their context/mindset is important. Think everyone will agree on that as it is basic marketing - excuses for using the M word on a tech forum :wink:

The discussion should focus on how to reach them (boys and girls). The answer comes also from marketing (did it again :wink: and the word is seduction. The (not allways educative) power of commercials. If you can get a "I want that too" feeling, people go far to reach their goal. Seduction is about showing end-results, called products, and their benefits. A technique I often used to gather requirements was the persona. - read the book: The Inmates Are Running the Asylum, Alan Cooper -. Basically you describe a fictive customer in as much detail as possible and that person is the archetype for your whole customergroup. We often used 2-6 in projects, archetype per role.

...

Sorry for the blunt reply. I will settle this with PMs.

You've painted a good picture. First of all, I really don't want to sell anything here, I have no arduino starter kits or products. I was collecting input to a possible grant to engage high school kits. I think you gave me a perfect one:

This following project was inspired by the original Mikal Hart's reverse-geocaching box:

http://arduino.cc/forum/index.php/topic,49937.0.html

I intended to build a geocaching treasure box that demands certain secret protocol to open: You take the box, which has 6 sides, each representing a number 1-6, then you knock on the side of the box that faces up to input the secret code. Say if you have 342516, then you first face side 3 up and knock on the box to enter 3, then face side 4 up and knock. I did a test and fell in love with inputting with audio feedback in tones so I ended up making a music box.

A girl wants to keep secrets, she can make such a box, upon secretly rotating the box and knock it in a non obvious way, she can open it. That might be a good project for high school girls. What do yo think?

If you have a example to show them (with enough bling bling on it and painted pink :slight_smile: it will work I guess .

robtillaart:
If you have a example to show them (with enough bling bling on it and painted pink :slight_smile: it will work I guess .

A store (TJMaxx) has some painted boxes that look too nice for a geocaching box subject to elements of the nature but should be good as an example for indoor use. I'll have that on my list to purchase. It's around $16, a lot if you buy electronics components. I was trying to get an art professor to work on the music box but failed. They're really good at making things attractive I wish to work with them in the future.

Artists, technicians and craftsmen together performed magic in all centuries :slight_smile:

, and I derive formulas on white board mathemagically (to some of my students). Maybe if I do this secret box project right, I can develop some artistic brain cells that I need. My projects are fine in intellectual merits but lack of artistic features.

Learn to use the golden ratio and that kind of "tech facts" from arts and you've made a first step, the math of music (harmonics) is a good second. Apply this 'knowledge" to forms and people will unconciously recognize it (and the chance they appreciate it will rise :slight_smile:

Once read a story that some people climb a mountain with pen and paper and draw the view they have and throw away the painting. They will have a far more vivid image of the view than those who take a picture.

Remenber the verb "that what you give your energy to, will grow"