Punctuation Marks and Etc. of the English Language

Re: Subject line.

Etcetera means "and other stuff" so you don't need the "and" before the "etc."

Henry_Best:
Re: Subject line.

Etcetera means "and other stuff" so you don't need the "and" before the "etc."

In electrical technology, AC means "Alternating Current"; so, there is no need to say "AC Current"; but, almost everybody says "AC Current".

But almost nobody says "and etc." :smiley:

DaveEvans:
But almost nobody says "and etc." :smiley:

I had not given it a lot of thought but I assumed the title meant that the OP wished to discuss the use of "Etc" and the use of punctuation.

In other words I subconsciously interpreted the title as
"Etc" and Punctuation Marks of the English Language

...R

Robin2:
I had not given it a lot of thought but I assumed the title meant that the OP wished to discuss the use of "Etc" and the use of punctuation.

In other words I subconsciously interpreted the title as
"Etc" and Punctuation Marks of the English Language

I have two items in the Title, which are Punctuation Marks and Etc.. What else is there except the coordinating conjunction and that can help me to glue these two items?

I did not like to put Etc. at the beginning of the Title as my priority was to discuss the usage of Punctuation Marks.

Moreover, I have followed the guide lines of the IEEE Standard in the formation of the Title. In this standard, a full stop (.) is not allowed anywhere in the Title; but, in my case Etc. is itself a word with an embedded full stop.

GolamMostafa:
I have two items in the Title, which are Punctuation Marks and Etc.. What else is there except the coordinating conjunction and that can help me to glue these two items?

This is a situation where standard English usage does NOT use an "and". The correct usage is
Punctuation Marks etc. of the English Language
The reason is quite simple "etc is short for "et cetera" which literally means (according to my dictionary) "and the rest" and colloquially means "and other similar things"

The addition of the "and" changes the meaning of the sentence.

...R

AWOL:
I read it as;
In school, diligence is desirable, but some students do not realise that.

I don't like that. In my limited understanding of grammer a comma serves three uses

  • To separate items in a list.
  • To provide pause for breath and perhaps emphasis.
  • To bracket optional additional information that can be omitted.

In the above there is no list, the commas are not for breath and the sentence "In school but some students do not realise that" does not make sense.

I am happy with a single comma or even better none.
I like the idea that colon and semi-colon use shows a lack of moral fibre.

In my limited understanding of grammer

Oh!The irony :smiley:

AWOL:
Oh!The irony :smiley:

Can't spell either :smiley:

ardly:

  • To separate items in a list.
  • To provide pause for breath and perhaps emphasis.
  • To bracket optional additional information that can be omitted.

All three examples are pauses of lesser or greater extent.

"In the above there is no list, the commas are not for breath and the sentence "In school but some students do not realise that" does not make sense."

I beg to differ(!)

"In school diligence is desirable but some students do not realise that. (sic.)"

'School' and 'diligence' are both nouns

Two nouns may be conjoined with a hyphen...
"In school-diligence is desirable (!)"

...Or they may be separated, as a list.
"In school, diligence is desirable but some students do not realise it."

I am happy with a single comma or even better none.

Technical English is written using open form punctuation, omitting all that is not essential. English language students are taught the more expressive and pedantic, closed form, punctuation.

msssltd:
Technical English is written using open form punctuation, omitting all that is not essential. English language students are taught the more expressive and pedantic, closed form, punctuation.

Then why are the Technical School going students burdened with so many years of English Language Course (in my country, it is for 13 years for non-natives) if they are not required to practice strictly the punctuation rules of the language?

The following excerpt is taken from a recent post of an anonymous poster of some other section of this Forum. Is the line well punctuated in respect of the use of the transitional adverb -- otherwise?

*I'm assuming that 'distance' and 'maxDistance' are 'int', otherwise there would be no need to promote them to 'long'. *

In the punctuation class, we have learnt that the smooth transition from one clause to another clause in a sentence should be made through the use of a punctuated 'transitional adverb.' In this case, the punctuation marks are the semi-colon and comma which are to be placed before and after the transitional adverb (the otherwise). The rule is more than 100 years old, and it is still found in the 'Text Book of English Grammar.'

I am sure that the reviewer of my Technical Journal/Conference paper would alert me to punctuate the above-quoted sentence and in response, I would re-write this way:

I'm assuming that 'distance' and 'maxDistance' are 'int'; otherwise, there would be no need to promote them to 'long'.

GolamMostafa:
In electrical technology, AC means "Alternating Current"; so, there is no need to say "AC Current"; but, almost everybody says "AC Current".

I think you are falling into a trap. AC is an initialism and they, like acronyms, can be expanded into words. Etcetera cannot be expanded, it is a word. Instead the reader is supposed to replace the word with a continuation of what preceeded it for example;

  • Mon, Tue, Wed, etcetera conveys to the reader Mon, Tue, Wed, Thu, Fri, Sat, Sun
  • 2, 4, 6,8, etcetera conveys to the reader the infinite series of positive integers

Etcetera can also be used in a wooly way for example if somebody says "Punctation etcetera", they probably mean punctuation, grammar and things like that, but the meaning is a bit vague.

There is another use that people accept but which is rather recursive and redundant. For example; "Cats, dogs, etcetera are examples of domestic animals" means "Cats, dogs and domestic animals are examples of domestic animals".

msssltd:
Two nouns may be conjoined with a hyphen...
"In school-diligence is desirable (!)"

...Or they may be separated, as a list.
"In school, diligence is desirable but some students do not realise it."

I can't make any sense of those sentences if I read them literally. If I read them loosely (mentally omitting the hyphen and the comma) they do make sense.

I know what a school-meal is but school-diligence is strange and you could not write
In school-meal is xxxx (I have omitted the word "desirable" as I had more than enough of them in my youth.)

I might concede the value of the comma if the sentence was a follow-on to another - something like
In the playground you can have fun, However, in school, diligence is desirable
where the purpose is to emphasize the difference between play and school. But that was not the context in which I introduced the sentence.

...R

GolamMostafa:
Then why are the Technical School going students burdened with so many years of English Language Course (in my country, it is for 13 years for non-natives) if they are not required to practice strictly the punctuation rules of the language?

I know I wrote the second point in Reply #4 with humour in mind. But there is still a germ of truth in it.

The following excerpt is taken from a recent post of an anonymous poster of some other section of this Forum. Is the line well punctuated in respect of the use of the transitional adverb -- otherwise?

*I'm assuming that 'distance' and 'maxDistance' are 'int', otherwise there would be no need to promote them to 'long'. *

.............

I'm assuming that 'distance' and 'maxDistance' are 'int'; otherwise, there would be no need to promote them to 'long'.

IMHO the original version is easier to understand than your more complex punctuation and in fact the sentence would be completely understandable without any comma or semi-colon.

When I read your punctuated version my reading is interrupted when I reach the comma after "otherwise" - it is only at that point that I become conscious of the semi-colon and then I have to re-read the whole thing in case I have missed something.

A very good test of writing and punctuation is to read the text out loud (obviously this works better for a longer passage where the need to draw breath becomes relevant). If the clauses and sub-clauses (if any) are too complex or if the punctuation is wrong it will be difficult to read through the text with the proper emphasis to convey the meaning clearly to the listener. (But I have no idea whether this is relevant to someone who is not writing in their native language)

...R

Original version with single comma is easier to understand for me also. It is similar to my mother tongue. However, after little googling, I found that it "should" be written exactly as Golam wrote or in two separate sentences (...are 'int'. Otherwise, there...). The word "should" is written intentionally in quotes because it doesn't seem like strict rule. All versions are correct? I'm little bit confused.

...and in fact the sentence would be completely understandable without any comma or semi-colon.

What the rules of grammar say?

Budvar10:

..and in fact the sentence would be completely understandable without any comma or semi-colon.

What the rules of grammar say?

If the "rules of grammar" do not reflect how language is used then it is the rules that are wrong. In the exact same way that the rules of physics and chemistry must match what happens in an internal combustion engine or else those rules would be wrong.

In any case this Thread is about punctuation rather than grammar. In school the word "grammar" is often used when trying to teach punctuation.

The purpose of grammar is to explain how language works - sophisticated language existed long before any experts started to try to understand it or to compare different languages. Understanding how language works can be especially useful when helping people with language problems.

Punctuation, on the other hand, is just a series of marks intended to make the written word easier to understand.

The more this Thread continues the more convinced I become of the validity of my second point in Reply #4.

...R

Robin2:
If the "rules of grammar" do not reflect how language is used then it is the rules that are wrong...

This one is good for Bart chalkboard quote. I used to use similar when I was a schoolboy. :slight_smile:

Given below a sentence which has just been taken from an anonymous poster of some other section.

If you describe the project you want to create so that we understand the context of your question it will be much easier to help.

My question/query is: Do we need to put the comma (,) punctuation mark 'at the appropriate place' in order to show the dependent relationship between the two clauses (dependent and independent) of the sentence?

GolamMostafa:
Given below a sentence which has just been taken from an anonymous poster of some other section.

If you describe the project you want to create so that we understand the context of your question it will be much easier to help.

My question/query is: Do we need to put the comma (,) punctuation mark 'at the appropriate place' in order to show the dependent relationship between the two clauses (dependent and independent) of the sentence?

Now that you have drawn it to my attention, I think it may be a little better like this
If you describe the project you want to create (so that we understand the context of your question) it will be much easier to help.

Humble apologies for my slackness - however I doubt if there is any confusion as written. If you think it can reasonably be interpreted in a different way to what I intended please let me know.

...R

GolamMostafa:
Then why are the Technical School going students burdened with so many years of English Language Course (in my country, it is for 13 years for non-natives) if they are not required to practice strictly the punctuation rules of the language?

Two things that shocked me during my teenage years. i) On leaving secondary education I received extremely good English Language and English Literature exam grades. ii) The following week, on my first day at work, I was told to unlearn the punctuation skills I had put so much effort into learning. The explanation was when writing business and technical English one may presume the reader has a grasp of spoken English so is able to infer the punctuation for themselves.

I still struggle with the distinction 37 years on. It reminds me of the years I worked abroad, conversing in English with non-native English speakers. When I got back to the UK I found my vocabulary had collapsed. Took a good five years to recover.

I would like to add that I think your English is excellent Golam.