Forum Website Down

Graynomad:
It's not that strange, I don't think I've ever seen a single issue of this nature addressed, or even acknowledged, by the powers that be.


Rob

Looks like you were right Rob. Not a single Admin responded to my PM, or commented on my post about the document expired error. I guess they just don't give a damn about members reporting problems. But it's funny, if you look down the lists of posts on this board you can see they lock threads and move them, so they must be reading the board. Hmmm ...

But that isn't going to stop me from commenting on problems I see with this forum. :slight_smile:

And now for my short treatise on SMF's moderating system, for those that are interested.

There are 8 Global moderators on this forum, and no board moderators (if there were, they'd be listed on each board)

Four of the Globals are very active -

Name - Position - Date Registered - Posts

AWOL Global Moderator 2009-02-25 17733
Coding Badly Global Moderator 2009-04-15 9497
CrossRoads Global Moderator 2010-08-21 15175
Nick Gammon Global Moderator 2010-12-31 12905

Four of them are not active at all. Taking into account the length of time they've been registered, it seems they have lost interest in moderating -

michael shiloh Global Moderator 2009-03-24 37
Federico Vanzati Global Moderator 2009-03-26 1077
Yot Global Moderator 2009-10-05 287
UweFederer Global Moderator 2011-03-27 4

So for all practical purposes, there are only four Global Moderators, and no board moderators, for a forum of this size -

1136364 Posts in 139356 Topics by 128500 Members.

SMF has a heirarchy set up that, when used, makes the life of everybody a lot easier.

We have these top ranks -

Administrators
Global Moderators
Board Moderators

It should be used like a police force. You have the Chief(s) of police (Admins), the captains (Globals), and the cops on the beat (board Mods). In this case the forum owner would be the Mayor. The police chief(s) (Admins) should never be doing the work of moderating. All they do is manage the police force and hire and fire other mods and twiddle with the forum settings. They also work with the Mayor (forum owner).

The Global Mods manage the board moderators and determine what actions to take when serious violations of forum policy happen. They can, if given the permissions, edit members profiles and do some other things to enforce the rules, ban members, and so on. In a pinch they can do the menial work of moving and splitting threads, but that's not their primary job function.

The board Mods are the cops on the beat. They do most of the work of moderating. They make sure that the posts for each board are on-topic and manage each board. They split threads, move threads, respoond to Report to Moderator actions, get involved in threads when they veer off-topic, and so on.

If you have a very small forum, it's OK to use Global Mods to police the entire forum, because it's not efficient to assign members to each board if your membership is very small. In fact if it's very small the Admin will do the same thing. That's just the way it goes.

But for a large forum (and this one is huge) you need to set up the moderating system the proper way. You should have board moderators on each board to handle all the little things that happen inside each micro-community (each major board). Another thing to consider is the global activity of the forum. If it's truly a world-wide audience, you need moderators awake spanning all the global time zones.

IMHO, this forum is way too big, WAY to big, to be policed primarily by a few Global Moderators, and as I said Administrators are not supposed to be moderators. My guess is that it just evolved that way from years ago. But looking at it now, it needs to have it's moderating hierarchy gutted and set up the way SMF is meant to be set up. It's just way too busy to be run like this.

Cheers,

Modeller

It seems to me there are in fact a few "board moterators", specifically in the "international" section. Uwe is one of the moderators of the Italian board.

(edit: typo)

tuxduino:
It seems to me there are in fact a few "board moterators", specifically in the "international" section. Uwe is on of the moderators of the Italian board.

Well, at least someone is paying attention.

Yes indeed (except for Scandinavia), I have that board collapsed because I don't need to read it, but that's good. Now the question is, why do they not do it for the busiest boards on the forum?

IMHO, this forum is way too big, WAY to big, to be policed primarily by a few Global Moderators, and as I said Administrators are not supposed to be moderators. My guess is that it just evolved that way from years ago. But looking at it now, it needs to have it's moderating hierarchy gutted and set up the way SMF is meant to be set up. It's just way too busy to be run like this.

Cheers,

Modeller

Well I don't agree with your opinion of what this forum needs. You present a solution looking for a problem that doesn't exist in my opinion. I've been a member for over 4 years and seen the huge growth happen.

This forum started with almost no active moderation and had few problems to speak of, but as it grew the admin did ask for volunteers to help with typical moderation tasks and a few were selected.

This forum for it's huge size has not had a lot of problems with trolls and members posting abusive content considering the membership size and high posting traffic we have. What few show up are dealt with in a timely but fair manner. Once in a while some commercial ad bot spams the board pretty good but those are always handled in a timely manner.

So again I don't share that there is a problem here looking for a solution, our moderation is of the 'light handed' nature and I hope it remains that way. I don't wish to see this forum operate like a local government structure, too much politics and niches can form as a result of an over administrated forum.

Lefty

Look at these two -

Federico Vanzati, UweFederer

They are already Global Mods, and don't require an assignent to a board moderator slot.

Also look at the "moderators" of General Discussion.

Moderators: admin, Massimo Banzi, David Cuartielles, mellis

They are Administrators! There is no logical reason to assign an Admin to a board moderator slot - they can already do anything a moderator can do without the permission of a board moderator. That's what I mean, the way these slots are being used tells me they don't really understand SMF.

retrolefty:
Well I don't agree with your opinion of what this forum needs.

Now were getting some responses.

Of course you don't agree Lefty, that's because you are part of the existing "clique". I wouldn't expect you to agree with me yet. That doesn't however mean that this moderating scheme is being used properly. Your argument is nothing more than this -

"It's always been done this way so how could it be better?"

Do you answer technical questions like that? No. You answer them with logical responses. I may not know the Arduino as well as you, but I think I know SMF and how it's supposed to be set up better than just about anyone here.

Why don't you try to answer my points logically. For example, why are Administrators assigned to board moderator slots? Start with that.

modeller:
Look at these two -

Federico Vanzati, UweFederer

They are already Global Mods, and don't require an assignent to a board moderator slot.

Also look at the "moderators" of General Discussion.

Moderators: admin, Massimo Banzi, David Cuartielles, mellis

They are Administrators! There is no logical reason to assign an Admin to a board moderator slot - they can already do anything a moderator can do without the permission of a board moderator. That's what I mean, the way these slots are being used tells me they don't really understand SMF.

retrolefty:
Well I don't agree with your opinion of what this forum needs.

Now were getting some responses.

Of course you don't agree Lefty, that's because you are part of the existing "clique".

No such 'clique' exists, what you see posted is what there is, nothing more nothing less.

I wouldn't expect you to agree with me yet. That doesn't however mean that this moderating scheme is being used properly. Your argument is nothing more than this -

"It's always been done this way so how could it be better?"

Because the software allows the kind of structure you wish to implement does not mean it needs to be or should be implemented. Again, what problem specifically are you proposing to solve other then you think the membership population Vs moderator population is not what you would like to see?

Do you answer technical questions like that? No. You answer them with logical responses. I may not know the Arduino as well as you, but I think I know SMF and how it's supposed to be set up better than just about anyone here.

Again knowledge of the SMF tool does not mean one must implement every bell and whistle it has. I know C/C++ to a certain limited amount but it doesn't mean I try and use every feature the language offers.

Why don't you try to answer my points logically. For example, why are Administrators assigned to board moderator slots? Start with that.
I don't even understand the question. Membership titles mean little to me compared to membership behaviour.
Lefty

retrolefty:
Why don't you try to answer my points logically. For example, why are Administrators assigned to board moderator slots? Start with that.

I don't even understand the question. Membership titles mean little to me compared to membership behaviour.
Lefty

Well there you go. You don't even understand the question, which means you don't understand what SMF membergroup permissions are and who can use what permissions as relates to their membergroup.

If a person logs on and says they don't understand something about the Arduino, and you explain it to them and ask them a question, and then they tell you

"I don't even understand the question. Electronic part names titles mean little to me compared to their behavior in a a circuit." how would you respond?

I think you would keep trying to explain. It's the same behavior you are exhibiting here. You don't understand SMF permissions and membergroups, and somehow that makes what I'm telling you irrelevant to your pre-conceived opinion that the forum is set up the best it can be. It's clique behavior, which means that an outsider's opinions are usually met by opposition by the clique - I mean how can a new outsider be right about anything regarding the existing community? It's the same behavior exhibited by large corporations toward new people with new ideas. Ever try to change a large corporation as a newcomer? That's the way you are acting towards me.

Are you willing to listen to an expert on SMF (me), or are you going to exhibit to me the same behavior that you would frown upon by a newbie to electronics who wouldn't listen to your explanations of the Arduino?

Are you willing to listen to an expert on SMF (me), or are you going to exhibit to me the same behavior that you would frown upon by a newbie to electronics who wouldn't listen to your explanations of the Arduino?

I just voice my opinion as just a normal member of the forum, that I don't think there is a problem with the number of and/or behaviour of the existing moderators/administrators, or their running of this forum. I understand you feel there is something wrong but have failed to be very specific in your complaint, other then more cops on the streets are needed, think of the children.

Lefty

retrolefty:
I just voice my opinion as just a normal member of the forum, that I don't think there is a problem with the number of and/or behaviour of the existing moderators/administrators, or their running of this forum. I understand you feel there is something wrong but have failed to be very specific in your complaint, other then more cops on the streets are needed, think of the children.

Yes I have been specific in a post above. You just glossed over the entire explanation. Is that the way you want new electronics members to act towards explanations you post?

modeller:

retrolefty:
I just voice my opinion as just a normal member of the forum, that I don't think there is a problem with the number of and/or behaviour of the existing moderators/administrators, or their running of this forum. I understand you feel there is something wrong but have failed to be very specific in your complaint, other then more cops on the streets are needed, think of the children.

Yes I have been specific in a post above. You just glossed over the entire explanation. Is that the way you want new electronics members to act towards explanations you post?

Well we are just talking past each other. Lets see if any other members have comments on your recommendations.

Lefty

retrolefty:
Well we are just talking past each other. Lets see if any other members have comments on your recommendations.

Well, I PM'ed the Administrators yesterday. They are the ones who should care enough to look into issues. The issue I asked them about was a bona fide error message - the Document Expired error. I got Zip Zero Zilch for a response.

Since they don't care to respond, I have no other recourse than to speculate on why. Either they:

A. Don't care
B. They are too busy, which means they need more help
C. They are embarrassed that they don't know how to fix it so they choose to keep quiet
E. They like error messages to show up for members who use the search function

any other possibilities?

At the risk of saying something silly, I'll throw in my 2 cents.

Being no expert about forum software in general, and SMF in particular, I can only say modeller's comments look reasonable to me, from a technical point of view. The fact that there's a mismatch between actual responsibilities and SMF "slot" assignments is indeed something that should be fixed, as the "expired document" problem reported before.

OTOH, I don't see this place being plagued with spam or a high number of misbehaving posters, name calling or things like that. IOW, my (limited, I admit) experience here tells me there's nothing (so) wrong that prevents experts and newcomers to do here what they come for. I.e. asking questions, providing answers, discussing about programming, microcontrollers and electronics in general.

So could the forum be better managed from a technical point of view ? It seems so. Is there a compelling need for this improvement ? It seems not. Or at least, I haven't seen those in charge of moderation and administration complain about technical shortcomings that make their life hard (at least in public).

As a user, the only real technical concern I have is about forum performance. Maybe an SMF ugprade would bring benefits in this area. But then again, I can live with the occasional performance problem, and I think it's reasonable that a (frightening) task such as an upgrade of a huge forum like this is subjected to the time constraints of the admins' agenda.

tuxduino:
At the risk of saying something silly, I'll throw in my 2 cents.

Being no expert about forum software in general, and SMF in particular, I can only say modeller's comments look reasonable to me, from a technical point of view. The fact that there's a mismatch between actual responsibilities and SMF "slot" assignments is indeed something that should be fixed, as the "expired document" problem reported before.

OTOH, I don't see this place being plagued with spam or a high number of misbehaving posters, name calling or things like that. IOW, my (limited, I admit) experience here tells me there's nothing (so) wrong that prevents experts and newcomers to do here what they come for. I.e. asking questions, providing answers, discussing about programming, microcontrollers and electronics in general.

So could the forum be better managed from a technical point of view ? It seems so. Is there a compelling need for this improvement ? It seems not. Or at least, I haven't seen those in charge of moderation and administration complain about technical shortcomings that make their life hard (at least in public).

Thank you for a logical and rational response tuxduino. I really appreciate that.

As a user, the only real technical concern I have is about forum performance. Maybe an SMF ugprade would bring benefits in this area. But then again, I can live with the occasional performance problem, and I think it's reasonable that a (frightening) task such as an upgrade of a huge forum like this is subjected to the time constraints of the admins' agenda.

They should really consider upgrading to SMF 2.0.4, because this version will not be supported in the coming months and it will not be receiving any more security updates after that time. I've personally done the upgrade from SMF 1.x.x to SMF 2.x.x and it isn't really a big deal.

You know what really concerns me though?

I've posted two topics on the "Website & Forum" board out of concern for an error message that should not come up, and contributing suggestions my years of experience with this forum software as a forum owner and administrator.

These topics were explicitly posted in the correct board. One can only assume that this board was created for a reason. I would also assume that the reason would be for the admins and owner to read and respond to concerns for the forum from it's users.

What are we to make of a lack of response to these topics? What are we to make of a lack of response to a concerned member's PM to Admins? The least they can do is acknowledge member's suggestions, I would think?

If they aren't willing to do this, then why does this board even exist?

Since yours is not a simple rant but a technical suggestion from someone who dirtied his hands with the very software we're talking about, I would expect some kind of response from the admins.
My guess is they are very busy and these issues are way down their priority scale, so they "can't" even ask for help.

But I won't go any further in "remote mind-guessing" on the admins :stuck_out_tongue:

tuxduino:
Since yours is not a simple rant but a technical suggestion from someone who dirtied his hands with the very software we're talking about, I would expect some kind of response from the admins.
My guess is they are very busy and these issues are way down their priority scale, so they "can't" even ask for help.

That goes right to my point - they need more help, and there are plenty of volunteers here to help them.

They should really consider upgrading to SMF 2.0.4, because this version will not be supported in the coming months and it will not be receiving any more security updates after that time.

Maybe the fear of a future unpatched security hole will make the SMF upgrade climb up the priority list :slight_smile:

tuxduino:
Maybe the fear of a future unpatched security hole will make the SMF upgrade climb up the priority list :slight_smile:

Well anyway, I enjoyed talking with you. I don't mind disagreements when the other party has a decent understanding of the underlying technical points being debated. If they want to disagree just because my post count is low or for some other unrelated bias, that don't really cut the mustard.

Even if they want to keep the forum moderators for most of the boards all Global Mods, they don't seem to understand that assigning a Global Mod to a board moderator slot is completely redundant. Global Mods can moderate any board without being assigned as a moderator. And it's even sillier to assign Administrators into board moderator slots. Admins can do anything at all on the entire forum, by definition!

Seeing this just makes me think they don't really understand the underlying hierarchy of SMF. But who am I right? Just some poor slob that has years of experience with this system. :~

I'm a moderator.
I have no (nil, zippo, naff-all) knowledge of SMF, moderator slots, permissions or privileges, and until I retire and have some spare time, I have absolutely no interest whatsoever in acquiring such knowledge, and even then I can't imagine I'll be that excited about it.

I honestly don't see what everyone is getting so stressed about.

(Poacher-turned-gamekeeper, that's me - I just like thumping spammers)

AWOL:
I'm a moderator.
I have no (nil, zippo, naff-all) knowledge of SMF, moderator slots, permissions or privileges, and until I retire and have some spare time, I have absolutely no interest whatsoever in acquiring such knowledge, and even then I can't imagine I'll be that excited about it.

I honestly don't see what everyone is getting so stressed about.

(Poacher-turned-gamekeeper, that's me - I just like thumping spammers)

Wow - finally a response.

So why do you denigrate a person with knowledge. Do you do that to people answering electronics questions here? That's a shameful attitude to present. Everyone should respect people with knowledge, no matter what the area of expertise.

If you are a Global moderator then you should have knowledge of SMF, if you don't then how can you be expected to use the tools available to moderate the forum efficiently? You mean you never got any training at all? If all you do is answer electronics questions, then you don't need to be a moderator. Moderating isn't about being an expert in the subject of the forum, it's about being an expert in running the forum.

Why don't you read my comments and respond to the relevant technical aspects, instead of showing the attitude you are, that someone with expert knowledge should be put down like you are doing? What if I did that to another person who was sharing their knowledge, would that be acceptable to you?

Wow - finally a response.

What's that supposed to mean?
Was this thread ever reported to the moderators?
I happened upon it, and thought I'd respond.

So why do you denigrate a person with knowledge.

Don't see any denigration - can you point it out please?

that someone with expert knowledge should be put down like you are doing?

Again, I'm going to need some pointers.

If you are a Global moderator then you should have knowledge of SMF

Why? I have an adequate set of tools that work.
I prefer the light-touch approach to moderation - I* don't want a Police State forum.
Except for spammers - then, I'm happy to be police, judge, jury and executioner.
(BTW, I didn't even volunteer to be a moderator - I'm one of those who had greatness (if such it is) thrust upon them)

it's about being an expert in running the forum.

I don't want to run the forum - that's Big Government - I want the forum to run itself.
I have absolutely no connection with Arduino whatsoever.
I just help out removing the miscreants - I'm more like a bouncer or a janitor.
This forum has an amazing cast of regulars (you'd probably say "clique" - I prefer "coterie") who report spam or crossposts as soon as they appear, and who assist enormously in keeping the place tidy.

If all you do is answer electronics questions, then you don't need to be a moderator.

I'm a computer science graduate - I only do electronics (OK, analogue electronics) at knifepoint.

Moderating isn't about being an expert in the subject of the forum, it's about being an expert in running the forum.

A job description! At last! After twenty months in the job.

*Like it says on the DVD special features disclaimer, all opinions are my own, and do not reflect the forum operators' views.