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Community => Bar Sport => Topic started by: graynomad on Nov 15, 2012, 08:01 am

Title: 8 bits is dead, long live 8 pins
Post by: graynomad on Nov 15, 2012, 08:01 am
For those who like the Attiny85 but need some more grunt, how about the new LPC800, 32-bits in a DIP8 package (and others)



http://www.nxp.com/news/press-releases/2012/11/nxp-revolutionizes-simplicity-with-lpc800.html (http://www.nxp.com/news/press-releases/2012/11/nxp-revolutionizes-simplicity-with-lpc800.html)

Surely this has to be a hobbyist's dream.

The only down side (and it can be a biggy in some applications) is no ADC, but there is this, 3 USARTs, 2 SPI, and an I2C interface with USART and I2C driver in ROM so they don't use any flash memory. 30Mhz with no crystal, CRC engine, boot loader in ROM, 16k flash and 4k RAM, full debugging support, yada yada yada.

I think I'm in love.

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System:
* ARM Cortex-M0+ processor, running at frequencies of up to 30 MHz with single-cycle multiplier and fast single-cycle I/O port.
* ARM Cortex-M0+ built-in Nested Vectored Interrupt Controller (NVIC).
* System tick timer.
* Serial Wire Debug (SWD) and JTAG boundary scan modes supported.
* Micro Trace Buffer (MTB) supported.
Memory:
* Up to 16 kB on-chip flash programming memory with 64 Byte page write and erase.
* 4 kB SRAM.
* ROM API support:
* Boot loader.
* USART drivers.
* I2C drivers.
* Power profiles.
* Flash In-Application Programming (IAP) and In-System Programming (ISP).
Digital peripherals:
* High-speed GPIO interface connected to the ARM Cortex-M0+ IO bus with up to 18 General-Purpose I/O (GPIO) pins with configurable pull-up/pull-down resistors.
* GPIO interrupt generation capability with boolean pattern-matching feature on eight GPIO inputs.
* Switch matrix for flexible configuration of each I/O pin function.
* State Configurable Timer (SCT) with input and output functions (including captureand match) assigned to pins through the switch matrix.
* Multiple-channel multi-rate timer (MRT) for repetitive interrupt generation at up to four programmable, fixed rates.
* Self Wake-up Timer (WKT) clocked from either the IRC or a low-power, low-frequency internal oscillator.
* CRC engine.
* Windowed Watchdog timer (WWDT).
Analog peripherals:
* Comparator with external voltage reference with pin functions assigned or enabled through the switch matrix.
Serial interfaces:
* Three USART interfaces with pin functions assigned through the switch matrix.
* Two SPI controllers with pin functions assigned through the switch matrix.
* One I2C-bus interface with pin functions assigned through the switch matrix.
Clock generation:
* 12 MHz internal RC oscillator trimmed to 1 % accuracy that can optionally be used as a system clock.
* Crystal oscillator with an operating range of 1 MHz to 25 MHz.
* Programmable watchdog oscillator with a frequency range of 9.4 kHz to 2.3 MHz.
* 10 kHz low-power oscillator for the WKT.
* PLL allows CPU operation up to the maximum CPU rate without the need for a high-frequency crystal. May be run from the system oscillator, the external clock input CLKIN, or the internal RC oscillator.
* Clock output function with divider that can reflect the crystal oscillator, the main clock, the IRC, or the watchdog oscillator.
Power control:
* Integrated PMU (Power Management Unit) to minimize power consumption.
* Reduced power modes: Sleep mode, Deep-sleep mode, Power-down mode, and
Deep power-down mode.
* Power-On Reset (POR).
* Brownout detect.
* Unique device serial number for identification.
* Single power supply.
* Available as SO20 package, TSSOP20 package, TSSOP16, and DIP8 package.


Preliminary data sheet.

http://www.nxp.com/documents/data_sheet/LPC81XM.pdf (http://www.nxp.com/documents/data_sheet/LPC81XM.pdf)

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Rob
Title: Re: 8 bits is dead, long live 8 pins
Post by: John_Smith on Nov 15, 2012, 08:26 am
Oh dear

I only speak Arduino language :-(
Title: Re: 8 bits is dead, long live 8 pins
Post by: CrossRoads on Nov 15, 2012, 08:30 am
No EEPROM, ADC, PWM, only 18 IO and memory the size of a 168?
Seems a bit lacking compared to a '1284 even if it does run a little faster.
Title: Re: 8 bits is dead, long live 8 pins
Post by: graynomad on Nov 15, 2012, 08:47 am
Yes but compare it to any other DIP8 processors. I'm a big fan of the 1284, in fact I'm about to make a board with one, but it is 40/44 pins.

On the LPCs you can use flash for non-volatile storage, not as good as EEPROM I guess but usually good enough. Lack of an ADC is strange these days.

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I only speak Arduino language :-(

My LARD framework should fix that, if I ever get it finished that is :)

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Rob
Title: Re: 8 bits is dead, long live 8 pins
Post by: CrossRoads on Nov 15, 2012, 09:00 am
Depends on the application I guess. I've never had a need to go that small. And if I did, I doubt I'd be doing tons of processing, probably just a little smart IO for a sensor.
Title: Re: 8 bits is dead, long live 8 pins
Post by: retrolefty on Nov 15, 2012, 04:57 pm
My main WOW for this is that it means DIP packaged ARM uP will remain available at least for a while longer. Long live the DIP package.  ;)

Lefty
Title: Re: 8 bits is dead, long live 8 pins
Post by: graynomad on Nov 15, 2012, 05:07 pm
Yeah, that's two DIP ARMs available now, a promising sign.

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Rob
Title: Re: 8 bits is dead, long live 8 pins
Post by: GoForSmoke on Nov 15, 2012, 08:36 pm
Economy driven chip evolution and 100's of newly opened niches?



Title: Re: 8 bits is dead, long live 8 pins
Post by: graynomad on Nov 16, 2012, 01:21 am
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100's of newly opened niches

I think so. For example you could design your own small peripheral chips. Of course you can do that with a Tiny as well but this has more grunt.

The other day we had someone wanting 12 (I think) hardware serial ports. We suggested UARTs and co-processors, but the only real co-processor option was the Tiny2313 because the other small chips don't have UARTs, or I2C or real SPI.

This would have been a good option.

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Rob
Title: Re: 8 bits is dead, long live 8 pins
Post by: JChristensen on Nov 16, 2012, 02:32 am
But it's only available in an 8-pin DIP??!! :-o  With all that capability a lot of it will necessarily go unused with only 8 pins. OK I guess if the price is right but it seems a bit of a shame...
Title: Re: 8 bits is dead, long live 8 pins
Post by: graynomad on Nov 16, 2012, 02:34 am
Yes it would have been nice to have the 16 and 20-pin versions in a DIP as well. Go figure.

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Rob
Title: Re: 8 bits is dead, long live 8 pins
Post by: JChristensen on Nov 16, 2012, 02:43 am
Wow, missed this the first time through. They don't mention quantity, but even if that's at 1000 copies, it ought to still be very affordable in quantities of 1-10.  Definitely one to watch for, good catch!

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Pricing for the LPC810 starts at $0.39 USD.
Title: Re: 8 bits is dead, long live 8 pins
Post by: graynomad on Nov 16, 2012, 02:46 am
Welcome to the world of 32-bit 555 timers :)

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Rob
Title: Re: 8 bits is dead, long live 8 pins
Post by: Palliser on Nov 16, 2012, 06:20 am
4004 must be spinning in his grave...
Title: Re: 8 bits is dead, long live 8 pins
Post by: graynomad on Nov 16, 2012, 06:26 am
Man I remember getting a 4004 data sheet as a promo, I read it and couldn't for the life of me see how these microprocessors things could be useful for anything.

Wrong :)

Still at least I didn't put all my money into buggy-whip shares.

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Rob
Title: Re: 8 bits is dead, long live 8 pins
Post by: CrossRoads on Nov 16, 2012, 06:38 am
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Still at least I didn't put all my money into buggy-whip shares.

Yep, not like the S&M business ever took off ;)
Title: Re: 8 bits is dead, long live 8 pins
Post by: graynomad on Nov 16, 2012, 06:53 am
S&M...is that anything like M&Ms? I like them.

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Rob
Title: Re: 8 bits is dead, long live 8 pins
Post by: CrossRoads on Nov 16, 2012, 07:11 am
Yeah - only more leathery 8)
Title: Re: 8 bits is dead, long live 8 pins
Post by: westfw on Nov 16, 2012, 06:16 pm
Quote
at least I didn't put all my money into buggy-whip shares.

I remember the first time I looked at a web browser (having already been involved with the networking industry for 10+ years by then.)  "Oh, this is just an easier UI to cover things like FTP that I already know how to use; I can safely ignore it."  :-)  Wrong.
Title: Re: 8 bits is dead, long live 8 pins
Post by: retrolefty on Nov 16, 2012, 06:43 pm

Man I remember getting a 4004 data sheet as a promo, I read it and couldn't for the life of me see how these microprocessors things could be useful for anything.

Wrong :)

Still at least I didn't put all my money into buggy-whip shares.

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Rob


That's nothing. I met the two Steve guys, Jobs and the Woz, in the mid 70s up in Rohnert Park. They were travelling around the Bay Area trying to sell/raise interest in their original Apple (1) populated PCB. They showed if off mounted is a homemade wood box, and a user had to supply their own keyboard and TV monitor. I looked it over and said this thing/these guys are going no where! Talking to him, I thought Woz was a real nice guy, a real nerd/hacker from the old school, but Jobs was even then was looking for something that would 'show me the money', that came through pretty clearly even back then.

Lefty
Title: Re: 8 bits is dead, long live 8 pins
Post by: alfiesty on Nov 17, 2012, 03:16 am


Man I remember getting a 4004 data sheet as a promo, I read it and couldn't for the life of me see how these microprocessors things could be useful for anything.

Wrong :)

Still at least I didn't put all my money into buggy-whip shares.

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Rob


That's nothing. I met the two Steve guys, Jobs and the Woz, in the mid 70s up in Rohnert Park. They were travelling around the Bay Area trying to sell/raise interest in their original Apple (1) populated PCB. They showed if off mounted is a homemade wood box, and a user had to supply their own keyboard and TV monitor. I looked it over and said this thing/these guys are going no where! Talking to him, I thought Woz was a real nice guy, a real nerd/hacker from the old school, but Jobs was even then was looking for something that would 'show me the money', that came through pretty clearly even back then.

Lefty


I was at the Homebrew Computer Club meeting where the Steves first showed the Apple II. I worked at Stanford Linear Accelerator Center and the meetings were in our auditorium. I had an Altair. Those were heady days!!

Jim
Title: Re: 8 bits is dead, long live 8 pins
Post by: graynomad on Nov 17, 2012, 01:29 pm
Holy crap Lefty, that beats them all I think. For maybe a $100 you could have been America's richest man.

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Rob
Title: Re: 8 bits is dead, long live 8 pins
Post by: retrolefty on Nov 17, 2012, 06:05 pm

Holy crap Lefty, that beats them all I think. For maybe a $100 you could have been America's richest man.

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Rob


In my dreams. They weren't offering to sell a share of their company, heck at the time I don't know if they had even incorporated yet. The populated original apple board they were selling was priced at either $666.66 or $777.77, I forget which, and I thought that was pretty high even at that time. If they had offered to sell it as a bare unpopulated PCB and included a programmed ROM I might have given it a consideration. Where Steve and Steve really 'lucked' out was some very knowledgeable silicon business types took them under wing and showed them how to set up a real company, get some venture capital and design a more consumer friendly model, the Apple II, which took off immediately and everyone knows the rest of that story.

  I also worked for around 6 months for a start-up company called MicroPro in Rohnert Park, CA around 1977/78 which was trying to decide to sell CP/M application software only or package it with hardware. I was hired for the hardware side, but alas they decided to sell only software, so I left for more secure employment. They about a year or two later, as about their fourth software offering, started selling a word processor application that was to become pretty popular and made the founder(s) zillionaires, called.....Word Star.

Lefty
Title: Re: 8 bits is dead, long live 8 pins
Post by: graynomad on Nov 17, 2012, 06:27 pm
Ah WordStar, I remember it fondly...well maybe not, but it did the job at the time. IIRC it was little more than a text editor with an inbuilt mark up language.

Two brushes with fame eh?

Unfortunately most of us geeks stay at the geek level unless we bump into a business type :(

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Rob
Title: Re: 8 bits is dead, long live 8 pins
Post by: GoForSmoke on Nov 17, 2012, 10:20 pm
There's times I used the CP/M line editor to change code because I could go faster but eventually WordStar got me too. It's like reading or TV, TV is less tiring.

When we got CP/M and I read the docs, I was so @#$&ing happy because we were also getting CB-80 and I could get away from number-line interpreter basic. Before that we had the Micropolis OS and Micropolis Basic to run our affordable business package. Those came free with the floppy drives and weren't worth a whole lot more. With CP/M I got TOOLS!

Title: Re: 8 bits is dead, long live 8 pins
Post by: dhenry on Nov 20, 2012, 05:37 pm
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8 bits is dead, long live 8 pins


Not sure if 8 bitters are dead - people have been saying that for years.

I think there is a case to be made that there is always a need for 8-bitters (or 16-bitters). The rush to 32-bitters is driven primarily by software development costs + time to market, in my view. A common platform allows better deployment and more robust code.

The new 810 from NXP is quite interesting, with its fully remapable pins. That's the one to watch for people wanting to use 8pdip packages.
Title: Re: 8 bits is dead, long live 8 pins
Post by: graynomad on Nov 21, 2012, 12:56 am
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people have been saying that for years.

That's true and we're not there yet, but lately there are starting to be practical alternatives.

When a 32-bit chip is the same size and cost as the 8-bit chip and you don't need 5v (increasingly the case) or high current drive on all pins then why use an 8-bitter? Except for the "high current" part all the other things are currently the case, in fact LPCs are always cheaper than a similar AVR, sometimes by a lot.

I'm about to get a board made, it's a dual processor with an LPC1227 and an ATmega1284. These chips are very similar if you look at serial ports, pins, memory etc. But the LPC is half the price, twice the clock speed, probably 3-4x the execution speed, flat address space, no frigging with PROGMEM, FIFOs on the SPI and UARTs etc etc.

So why use the 1284 at all? Basically I want the board to be Arduino compatible and I reckon the 1284 has the best mix of features of all the AVR chips.

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Rob
Title: Re: 8 bits is dead, long live 8 pins
Post by: retrolefty on Nov 21, 2012, 01:23 am

Quote
people have been saying that for years.

That's true and we're not there yet, but lately there are starting to be practical alternatives.

I'm pretty sure the 555 timer is still being made in DIP version and will be for some time in my opinion. It's my contention that the 555 is probably the IC chip with the longest continuous manufacturing run to date. What maybe going on forty years now?

When a 32-bit chip is the same size and cost as the 8-bit chip and you don't need 5v (increasingly the case) or high current drive on all pins then why use an 8-bitter? Except for the "high current" part all the other things are currently the case, in fact LPCs are always cheaper than a similar AVR, sometimes by a lot.

But 5 volt with pretty high current sink/source capacity is still a very handy 'feature' for a electronic hobbyist and can make the over all size of a project smaller by possibly not requiring extra drive components that a ARM based chip might require?

I'm about to get a board made, it's a dual processor with an LPC1227 and an ATmega1284. These chips are very similar if you look at serial ports, pins, memory etc. But the LPC is half the price, twice the clock speed, probably 3-4x the execution speed, flat address space, no frigging with PROGMEM, FIFOs on the SPI and UARTs etc etc.

So why use the 1284 at all? Basically I want the board to be Arduino compatible and I reckon the 1284 has the best mix of features of all the AVR chips.

I did buy a couple of the TH 1284 blank boards that Bob Makes. I've yet to try and populate one as I'm still playing around with the new Teensey 3.0 ARM board. I guess having lots of choices is the best of all possible states of being. Long live the DIP package.
Lefty


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Rob
Title: Re: 8 bits is dead, long live 8 pins
Post by: dhenry on Nov 21, 2012, 02:27 am
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When a 32-bit chip is the same size and cost as the 8-bit chip and you don't need 5v (increasingly the case) or high current drive on all pins then why use an 8-bitter?


Generally true. But, hardware costs / performance is half the story (less than half actually). In many cases, especially for jobs still in the developed countries, the cost of porting or redeveloping software for a new platform is prohibitive. So you will continue to use 8-bitters just so you can reuse your old software.

For new jobs, it is true that you would be hard pressed to write for 8-bitters. Of what I do, 8-bit is less than 10%.

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Except for the "high current" part all the other things are currently the case, in fact LPCs are always cheaper than a similar AVR, sometimes by a lot.


For an industrial application, the "high current" stuff is mostly a non-factor.

Having said that, I would venture that there will continue to be a market for 8-bit mcus, albeit much smaller than it is today. Professionally, writing for 8-bit mcus is a suicide.
Title: Re: 8 bits is dead, long live 8 pins
Post by: westfw on Nov 21, 2012, 07:25 am
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Professionally, writing for 8-bit mcus is a suicide.

Except that we're all using at least C nowadays, so writing for 8bit MCUs looks an awful lot like writing for 32bit MCUs.  Or 16bit MCUs.
Title: Re: 8 bits is dead, long live 8 pins
Post by: dhenry on Nov 21, 2012, 01:01 pm
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writing for 8bit MCUs looks an awful lot like writing for 32bit MCUs.  Or 16bit MCUs.


True, from a skill point of view.

When it comes to making a living off your 8-bit skills and your 32-bit skills, it is night and day: send out two resumes of yours, one emphasizing your 8-bit skills and another your 32-bit skills. You will get far more looks for the 32-bit version, far quicker and at a substantially higher starting point than the 8-bit version, if the 8-bit version gets looked at at all.

The reason is simple: the 8-bit design jobs, like the hardware, have largely moved off shore.