Arduino Forum

Development => Suggestions for the Arduino Project => Topic started by: oric_dan on Dec 06, 2012, 07:12 pm

Title: WIKIPEDIA FOR COMMON ARDUINO PROBLEMS
Post by: oric_dan on Dec 06, 2012, 07:12 pm
This is a follow on to my post on problems with installation of the Mega R3 board.

http://arduino.cc/forum/index.php/topic,135878.0.html

There are many other problems that pop up daily on the forum, and end up
being endlessly regurgitated on the forums. The issue of people having trouble
getting their XBee shields to work is one of them. Another one is voltage regulator
and board powering problems. There are many common software issues. On and on.

So responders end up going through the same list of suggestions time after time
after time.

It seems to be difficult to get actual changes put onto the main Arduino site, so
maybe there should be a WIKIPEDIA FOR COMMON ARDUINO PROBLEMS. Then, the
same people who are daily responding to the same old problems could post a list of
suggestions in an easily found place. Maybe it could even be a section of this
Forum, placed ahead of this topic area.

The Playground is helpful, but doesn't specifically address the same problems people
are having time after time. Nick Gammon and others have really good info on their
own personal websites, but of course people have to be specifically directed to those
pages. So .....
Title: Re: WIKIPEDIA FOR COMMON ARDUINO PROBLEMS
Post by: retrolefty on Dec 06, 2012, 07:26 pm
Yes, it could be a useful resource. However to turn an idea into a useful reality takes a lot or work and time for someone to take ownership over it. There is also the problem of wrong information given out by some that can bring on even bigger problems for some seekers of solutions, so vetting of information should also be part of the solution.

It kind of reminds me of the 'group' project some of us took on a long while back to publish a detailed step by step testing procedure to check out the USB serial connection link between a PC and a users arduino board, called the loop-back test. We must have worked on the wording and steps needed and not needed for over a month and I'm still not sure it is 100% beginner's proof. These kinds of things always take more time and effort then they seem they should. And now that the Arduino product line as gotten so large and diverse it's hard to generalize on solutions unless the person with the problem is very aware of the differences between all the products and what he/she may be working with.

Lefty
Title: Re: WIKIPEDIA FOR COMMON ARDUINO PROBLEMS
Post by: oric_dan on Dec 06, 2012, 08:01 pm
Quote
someone to take ownership over it


It would best work like the original Wikipedia. Someone could build a page on a
specific topic, and that page could be edited and expanded over time. So no
one person is doing everything, just like on Wikipedia. Also, Wikipedia is open
to editing suggestions from other people - that could be handled via 1-on-1
communications.

Certainly, this would be preferable to our answering the same old questions day
after day for every noobee who comes down the pike.
Title: Re: WIKIPEDIA FOR COMMON ARDUINO PROBLEMS
Post by: westfw on Dec 07, 2012, 02:10 am
The content is more important than the presentation.  Some forum topics have "sticky" posts containing FAQs and suggestions.  It's not clear that the newbies ever look there :-(
Title: Re: WIKIPEDIA FOR COMMON ARDUINO PROBLEMS
Post by: oric_dan on Dec 07, 2012, 02:21 am
An Arduino Wikipedia would want to be far more extensive than sticky posts to be
effective at cutting down on repetitive same-old responses. Given how often the same-old
people make the same-old responses, I should think they alone would volunteer to write
relevant Wikipedia pages. Write it once, instead of 100X.
Title: Re: WIKIPEDIA FOR COMMON ARDUINO PROBLEMS
Post by: westfw on Dec 07, 2012, 05:45 am
There seems to be a big gap between writing a quick response to particular question, and writing the sort of general tutorial one would like for a good wiki page.  And it doesn't stop the questions anyway; there are a bunch of pages describing how to burn bootloaders (for example), and people still show up with "I've read ALL the tutorials and I can't get them to work.  Don't point me at another page; tell me what to do!"
Title: Re: WIKIPEDIA FOR COMMON ARDUINO PROBLEMS
Post by: WizenedEE on Dec 07, 2012, 06:43 am
If the playground, a community-edited resource, isn't updated enough, why would another wiki? The playground is a wiki
Quote from: google
wi┬Ěki 
/?wik?/
Noun
A Web site developed collaboratively by a community of users, allowing any user to add and edit content.
.. which the playground is.

By the way, Wikipedia is a website/specific project; you can't have "a" wikipedia. A wiki is the word you are looking for (it's like the difference between a planet and Mars)
Title: Re: WIKIPEDIA FOR COMMON ARDUINO PROBLEMS
Post by: oric_dan on Dec 07, 2012, 08:04 am
Quote
By the way, Wikipedia is a website/specific project; you can't have "a" wikipedia. A wiki is the word you are looking for (it's like the difference between a planet and Mars)


1. from first post - "The Playground is helpful, but doesn't specifically address the same problems
    people are having time after time". What I'm talking about isn't about people's projects, but
    to help cut down on endless repetitions of the same posts.

2. Playground is more about posting links than providing information.

3. also, the Playground itself needs to be better organized in a more hierarchical fashion, as
   there is about 100X too much stuff for one page. Eg,
   http://playground.arduino.cc/Main/SimilarBoards

4. I mentioned Wikipedia because it is organized light-years better than most wikis, blogs,
    githubs, and everything else in the universe.

Quote
If the playground, a community-edited resource, isn't updated enough, why would another wiki?


5. The material on an Arduino Wikipedia wouldn't need to be updated very often. Most of the
    repetitive responses given day after day cover the same-old material over and over. I would
    think people would be happy to cut down on this.

Title: Re: WIKIPEDIA FOR COMMON ARDUINO PROBLEMS
Post by: westfw on Dec 07, 2012, 08:21 am
Quote
The material on an Arduino Wikipedia wouldn't need to be updated very often.

Well, it would probably need to be updated at least as often as the things on the playground now.  Many of which refer to Duemilanove hardware, pre-1.0 IDE features (shift-upload for debug, for example) and have code that no longer even compiles.
Title: Re: WIKIPEDIA FOR COMMON ARDUINO PROBLEMS
Post by: oric_dan on Dec 07, 2012, 08:21 am
Quote
there are a bunch of pages describing how to burn bootloaders (for example), and people still show up with "I've read ALL the tutorials and I can't get them to work.


This is true to some extent, but there are at least as many cases where the questions are exactly
the same and the answers are simply canned answers. Eg, "if I connect a 12V, 5A power supply
to my Arduino board, will it drive 5A into the board and damage it?", "I connected a 12V supply
to my Arduino board, why is the voltage regulator too hot to touch?", "what does 'stk500_getsync():
not in sync' mean?". These questions come up about 10X or more every week.

Shoot, I just bought a Mega 2560 R3 board, and I couldn't even get the board to install.
It doesn't actually tell you how on the main Arduino page. I had to search all over heck to
find the solution, and finally found it in a forum thread.

I don't especially like the indexing or organization of piclist, but the owner cut and pasted huge
amounts of quoted info from online discussions.

http://www.piclist.com/techref/index.htm
Title: Re: WIKIPEDIA FOR COMMON ARDUINO PROBLEMS
Post by: WizenedEE on Dec 07, 2012, 09:13 am

Quote
By the way, Wikipedia is a website/specific project; you can't have "a" wikipedia. A wiki is the word you are looking for (it's like the difference between a planet and Mars)


1. from first post - "The Playground is helpful, but doesn't specifically address the same problems
    people are having time after time". What I'm talking about isn't about people's projects, but
    to help cut down on endless repetitions of the same posts.


Are you volunteering to specifically address the same problems people are having time after time on the playground?

Please stop saying "a wikipedia;" it's terrible grammar.
Title: Re: WIKIPEDIA FOR COMMON ARDUINO PROBLEMS
Post by: SurferTim on Dec 07, 2012, 01:49 pm
Quote
Given how often the same-old people make the same-old responses, I should think they alone would volunteer to write relevant Wikipedia pages. Write it once, instead of 100X.

I don't know about the rest of the same-old people, but I got tired of posting the same-old ethernet stuff over and over, so I added the code to the playground (wiki).
http://playground.arduino.cc/Code/WebClient
http://playground.arduino.cc/Code/WebServerST
http://playground.arduino.cc/Code/FTP
If my experience is any indication of the effectiveness, the ethernet questions posted in the networking section has dropped way off. Maybe that is just coincidence?
Title: Re: WIKIPEDIA FOR COMMON ARDUINO PROBLEMS
Post by: pico on Dec 07, 2012, 02:35 pm

Shoot, I just bought a Mega 2560 R3 board, and I couldn't even get the board to install.
It doesn't actually tell you how on the main Arduino page. I had to search all over heck to
find the solution, and finally found it in a forum thread.


Don't feel bad, I just bought a Leonardo today, after installing the innumerable drivers, tried to upload "Blink", but it failed at the last stage saying couldn't find the serial port. All those drivers wasted. I have got it sorted yet, because it arrived the same day as my new AVR Dragon. No chance with that sort of competition for my attention!  :)

Maybe Team Arduino should just release better designed and tested hardware and software products in the first place. Now there's a radical thought.

Someone once asked me what I thought of Arduino quality control. I said it would be a very good idea...

By the way, anyone know how to upload "Blink" to a Leonardo?



Title: Re: WIKIPEDIA FOR COMMON ARDUINO PROBLEMS
Post by: oric_dan on Dec 07, 2012, 06:29 pm
Quote
Are you volunteering to specifically address the same problems people are having time after time on the playground?

Please stop saying "a wikipedia;" it's terrible grammar.


Obviously, it would be to the advantage of the people making the same-old posts repeatly
to write the material.

I'm just using Wikipedia as an example of something good to emulate. Got a name?
Title: Re: WIKIPEDIA FOR COMMON ARDUINO PROBLEMS
Post by: retrolefty on Dec 07, 2012, 06:32 pm

Quote
Are you volunteering to specifically address the same problems people are having time after time on the playground?

Please stop saying "a wikipedia;" it's terrible grammar.


Obviously, it would be to the advantage of the people making the same-old posts repeatly
to write the material.

I'm just using Wikipedia as an example of something good to emulate. Got a name?


WikiArduinopedia, rolls right off the old tongue don't it?  ;)
Title: Re: WIKIPEDIA FOR COMMON ARDUINO PROBLEMS
Post by: SurferTim on Dec 07, 2012, 06:33 pm

I'm just using Wikipedia as an example of something good to emulate. Got a name?

Yes. Playground.  :)

Your user/password from the forum works there. If you go to anywhere on that wiki, and see something that is incomplete and leave it that way, that is YOUR FAULT!
Title: Re: WIKIPEDIA FOR COMMON ARDUINO PROBLEMS
Post by: oric_dan on Dec 07, 2012, 06:38 pm
Quote
I don't know about the rest of the same-old people, but I got tired of posting the same-old ethernet stuff over and over, so I added the code to the playground (wiki).
http://playground.arduino.cc/Code/WebClient
http://playground.arduino.cc/Code/WebServerST
http://playground.arduino.cc/Code/FTP
If my experience is any indication of the effectiveness, the ethernet questions posted in the networking section has dropped way off. Maybe that is just coincidence?


That's what I was talking about. As mentioned, the problem with the Playground is, it's not well-
organized for finding things. Eg, if I printed the Interfacing with Hardware main page, it would
take 54 sheets of paper. I usually use the Find menu on my browser to find anything on that
page. It would take me some time just to locate your 3 pages referenced here.

Also, most of the links on Playground are links to other websites and specific projects. Maybe all
that would be needed is to reorganize the Playground idea to include a section on Forum
troubleshooting posts.
Title: Re: WIKIPEDIA FOR COMMON ARDUINO PROBLEMS
Post by: SurferTim on Dec 07, 2012, 06:43 pm
You can do that. Your user/password from here works there.

I entered "web client" in the search, and it was the first listing. It is under "User Code Library - Snippets and Sketches - Ethernet Shield". That seems pretty organized.
Title: Re: WIKIPEDIA FOR COMMON ARDUINO PROBLEMS
Post by: oric_dan on Dec 07, 2012, 06:44 pm
Quote
By the way, anyone know how to upload "Blink" to a Leonardo?


I posted a question about my Mega R3 problem on the Installation and Troubleshooting section
a couple of days ago, and didn't get even one response.
Title: Re: WIKIPEDIA FOR COMMON ARDUINO PROBLEMS
Post by: oric_dan on Dec 07, 2012, 06:45 pm
Quote
WikiArduinopedia, rolls right off the old tongue don't it?


Now, here's a guy who's made repeated posts about 12,000 times.
Title: Re: WIKIPEDIA FOR COMMON ARDUINO PROBLEMS
Post by: oric_dan on Dec 07, 2012, 06:48 pm
Quote
I entered "web client" in the search, and it was the first listing. It is under "User Code Library - Snippets and Sketches - Ethernet Shield". That seems pretty organized.


Yeah, that worked, although not exactly an example of direct organization.

So why doesn't everyone use Playground for that purpose?
Title: Re: WIKIPEDIA FOR COMMON ARDUINO PROBLEMS
Post by: SurferTim on Dec 07, 2012, 06:53 pm

So why doesn't everyone use Playground for that purpose?

I don't know why. They should. It is there for that purpose, as far as I can tell. I use it, but only for the field in which I am well qualified. I know ethernet.
Title: Re: WIKIPEDIA FOR COMMON ARDUINO PROBLEMS
Post by: retrolefty on Dec 07, 2012, 07:11 pm

Quote
WikiArduinopedia, rolls right off the old tongue don't it?


Now, here's a guy who's made repeated posts about 12,000 times.


But only posted about the word WikiArduinopedia twice now.  ;)

Seriously I think the majority of raw inexperianced beginners coming here asking something about their brand new arduino board and problems they are having will always prefer the more personal touch of a 'tailored' response. Heck many don't even know what to actually ask other then what could cause the symptom they are seeing. Telling them to RTFM or check out the stickies, or it's in the arduino playground somewhere is probably not their first choice of help they are looking for.

The usefulness of a good troubleshooting, or getting started, or tips and hints wiki could be a very effective tool for the arduino community to have at their disposal. But based on what I've seen of the quality and usefulness of the Arduino playground, I still think it would be a hard project to develop and maintain long term to any decent level of quality. So much changes quickly in the Arduino hardware and software world that archived data ages rather poorly. But that's not to discourage anyone taking a lead in trying to do it.

As far as the personal burden for posters responding to repeated posting to new people for old known problems or solutions, I think if it was actually a burden then they wouldn't be doing it would they? No one is paid here to post or even moderate the forum and we all use the site as we wish. So I'm not quite sure what problem you are actually trying to solve? I reserve the right to determine what is or is not a personal burden to myself.  ;)

Lefty  
Title: Re: WIKIPEDIA FOR COMMON ARDUINO PROBLEMS
Post by: oric_dan on Dec 07, 2012, 07:24 pm
Quote
I reserve the right to determine what is or is not a personal burden to myself.


Sheesh, you're an awfully tough guy to please.
Title: Re: WIKIPEDIA FOR COMMON ARDUINO PROBLEMS
Post by: retrolefty on Dec 07, 2012, 07:38 pm

Quote
I reserve the right to determine what is or is not a personal burden to myself.


Sheesh, you're an awfully tough guy to please.


Well if you would come mow my lawn for free, I might soften up a little, but only a little.

Lefty
Title: Re: WIKIPEDIA FOR COMMON ARDUINO PROBLEMS
Post by: oric_dan on Dec 07, 2012, 07:52 pm
Bad dog, don't cross post!
Title: Re: WIKIPEDIA FOR COMMON ARDUINO PROBLEMS
Post by: PaulS on Dec 08, 2012, 01:12 am
Quote
Don't feel bad, I just bought a Leonardo today, after installing the innumerable drivers, tried to upload "Blink", but it failed at the last stage saying couldn't find the serial port.

I plugged my Lenny in, and Win7/64bit did what it was supposed to, and installed the drivers. I was able to upload a sketch first try, reading from Serial1, with XBee attached, and writing to Serial.

What OS are you using?
Title: Re: WIKIPEDIA FOR COMMON ARDUINO PROBLEMS
Post by: pico on Dec 08, 2012, 02:50 am

What OS are you using?


Win XP, sp 3. I just tried it again, and this time it found the correct com port. So it only seems to fail _sometimes_, depending on the ambient temperature and phase of the moon, or something.

But if I have continuing problems, I'll start another thread, rather than hijack this one. Thanks for your response, but my question in the context of this thread was rhetorical, intended as a clever ironic device. But I've found that doesn't work every time, either.
Title: Re: WIKIPEDIA FOR COMMON ARDUINO PROBLEMS
Post by: PaulS on Dec 08, 2012, 02:53 am
Quote
I've found that doesn't work every time, either.

It almost never works for me.
Title: Re: WIKIPEDIA FOR COMMON ARDUINO PROBLEMS
Post by: retrolefty on Dec 08, 2012, 03:03 am

Quote
I've found that doesn't work every time, either.

It almost never works for me.


That's because your humour flies over most of our heads, much like many of your serious answers to questions. You really expect us to be able to tell the difference?  ]:D

Lefty
Title: Re: WIKIPEDIA FOR COMMON ARDUINO PROBLEMS
Post by: oric_dan on Dec 08, 2012, 09:56 am
Quote
But if I have continuing problems, I'll start another thread, rather than hijack this one.


Too late, that horse is dead, the bird has flown, the Arduino Wikipedia idea has been throttled
repreatedly, and we're back to endlessly answering the some-old questions. At least I got
my Mega R3 board installed and running now.
Title: Re: WIKIPEDIA FOR COMMON ARDUINO PROBLEMS
Post by: SurferTim on Dec 14, 2012, 02:34 pm
Quote
Too late, that horse is dead, the bird has flown, the Arduino Wikipedia idea has been throttled
repreatedly, and we're back to endlessly answering the some-old questions. At least I got
my Mega R3 board installed and running now.

I just added my fourth article in the playground.
http://playground.arduino.cc/Code/Email

For those who did not understand my earlier post, let me put it in a way programmers will understand.
Code: [Select]
char Playground[] = "wiki";

Title: Re: WIKIPEDIA FOR COMMON ARDUINO PROBLEMS
Post by: WizenedEE on Dec 14, 2012, 03:46 pm

Quote
Too late, that horse is dead, the bird has flown, the Arduino Wikipedia idea has been throttled
repreatedly, and we're back to endlessly answering the some-old questions. At least I got
my Mega R3 board installed and running now.

I just added my fourth article in the playground.
http://playground.arduino.cc/Code/Email

For those who did not understand my earlier post, let me put it in a way programmers will understand.
Code: [Select]
char Playground[] = "wiki";




What about
Code: [Select]

class Playground : Wiki {
public:
  static const bool isOnArduinoSite = true;
// don't need to override anything else
};
Title: Re: WIKIPEDIA FOR COMMON ARDUINO PROBLEMS
Post by: SurferTim on Dec 14, 2012, 04:09 pm
Great!!  :D
Except I would add two more public variables:
Code: [Select]
public:
  static const bool isOnArduinoSite = true;
  static const bool isMyUserPasswordGood = true;
  static const bool isEverythingThereEditable = true;
// don't need to override anything else

Title: Re: WIKIPEDIA FOR COMMON ARDUINO PROBLEMS
Post by: PaulS on Dec 14, 2012, 05:14 pm
Code: [Select]
class Playground : Wiki {
It's better, in my opinion, to explicitly declare the type of inheritance (public or private) you want.
Title: Re: WIKIPEDIA FOR COMMON ARDUINO PROBLEMS
Post by: retrolefty on Dec 14, 2012, 05:19 pm
Software guys are weird.  ;)

Lefty
Title: Re: WIKIPEDIA FOR COMMON ARDUINO PROBLEMS
Post by: WizenedEE on Dec 15, 2012, 02:23 am

Code: [Select]
class Playground : Wiki {
It's better, in my opinion, to explicitly declare the type of inheritance (public or private) you want.


Right, I knew I was forgetting something. Too much java...
Title: Re: WIKIPEDIA FOR COMMON ARDUINO PROBLEMS
Post by: graynomad on Dec 15, 2012, 04:59 am
Re the playground.

Quote
If you go to anywhere on that wiki, and see something that is incomplete and leave it that way, that is YOUR FAULT!


What about this

http://www.arduino.cc/en/Tutorial/ShiftOut (http://www.arduino.cc/en/Tutorial/ShiftOut)

That cap on the clock signal is wrong, we all know it, we respond to questions about it every second day, and yet apparently there's no way to fix it. I admit I've not tried because everyone said you couldn't edit it, is that correct?

Ok I just tried

Quote
Insufficient privileges to perform action.


______
Rob
Title: Re: WIKIPEDIA FOR COMMON ARDUINO PROBLEMS
Post by: CrossRoads on Dec 15, 2012, 05:12 am
That shiftout error is in the Learning section,
http://arduino.cc/en/Tutorial/HomePage

and not the Playground.
http://playground.arduino.cc/
"The playground is a publicly-editable wiki about Arduino. "
while the Learning section makes no such claim.
I've also written & requested as a Moderator to have that cap removed, to no effect.
Title: Re: WIKIPEDIA FOR COMMON ARDUINO PROBLEMS
Post by: graynomad on Dec 15, 2012, 05:48 am
Hmm fair enough, but I got there from a link in the playground

http://playground.arduino.cc//Main/InterfacingWithHardware (http://playground.arduino.cc//Main/InterfacingWithHardware)

Under "Multiplexing Inputs" [sic].

Now I see that the link took me away from the playground, do people appreciate the difference, I admit I didn't.

______
Rob
Title: Re: WIKIPEDIA FOR COMMON ARDUINO PROBLEMS
Post by: CrossRoads on Dec 15, 2012, 05:49 am
It is indeed subtle.
Title: Re: WIKIPEDIA FOR COMMON ARDUINO PROBLEMS
Post by: PaulS on Dec 15, 2012, 01:35 pm
Quote
Hmm fair enough, but I got there from a link in the playground

Then, you should fix the link in the playground to point to some better example.
Title: Re: WIKIPEDIA FOR COMMON ARDUINO PROBLEMS
Post by: SurferTim on Dec 15, 2012, 02:26 pm
Quote
What about this

http://www.arduino.cc/en/Tutorial/ShiftOut

That cap on the clock signal is wrong, we all know it, we respond to questions about it every second day, and yet apparently there's no way to fix it. I admit I've not tried because everyone said you couldn't edit it, is that correct?

At one point, I suggested that the reference/tutorial section be set up to be user editable like the playground (wiki), but that was apparently not accepted by the Arduino crew.  :(

edit: I am a little surprised the forum moderators and administrators do not have edit ability in that section. Since that known error has not been changed, and many know of it, there is a word I use for that situation: LAZY.

BTW, that is aimed at the person who is responsible for the maintenance of that section of the website.
Title: Re: WIKIPEDIA FOR COMMON ARDUINO PROBLEMS
Post by: graynomad on Dec 15, 2012, 04:40 pm
Quote
you should fix the link in the playground to point to some better example.

As could we all I guess.

That's the easy part, writing tutes takes ages when I think all that is needed is to modify a couple of drawings.

_____
Rob