Arduino Forum

Using Arduino => Networking, Protocols, and Devices => Topic started by: Trixi on Sep 10, 2013, 05:57 pm

Title: Wifi without WiFi shield only with NRF24L01+possible ?
Post by: Trixi on Sep 10, 2013, 05:57 pm
Hoi,

i want to connect my board to my WLAN-Router.

By reading all the threads and entries always a WiFi-Shield is used....is this real necessary or can i connect without that shield, only with a NRF24L01+ - Module ?

Doei
Trixi
Title: Re: Wifi without WiFi shield only with NRF24L01+possible ?
Post by: pico on Sep 11, 2013, 02:38 am
Yes indeed. 8) WiFi access over nRF24L01+ for Arduinos has been implemented using the RFXduino (Radio For X:duino) gateway system (details at  embeddedcoolness.com (http://embeddedcoolness.com)).

The motivation behind this project was to make WiFi cheaper for each node (via an inexpensive nRF24L01+ radio module for each), but also simpler to program (example sketches in embeddedcoolness.com/docs (http://embeddedcoolness.com/docs) -- just added some demo sketches for sending emails, SMS alerts,  tweets) and more powerful (e.g., allows access to secure socket connections, https:// and TLS for email servers, etc.) than using standard WiFI shields.

Check it out and get back to me if you have any questions.  :smiley-mr-green:








Title: Re: Wifi without WiFi shield only with NRF24L01+possible ?
Post by: Trixi on Sep 11, 2013, 01:56 pm
Hoi pico,

Aha, so its possible - i thought i read something about that some time ago and was sure, that it can work this way (in case of the reason you claimed: costs, easy coding etc...)
So i will have a look on your given links soon.

---
Done - so this isnt a project as it but a company that sells some gateways.
But when you are writing "cheap" THEN i wanted to see "results" which are CHEAPER as the offers in the web and ebay.
Maybe you will have a look also to this thread
http://forum.arduino.cc/index.php?topic=179607.new;topicseen#new (http://forum.arduino.cc/index.php?topic=179607.new;topicseen#new)

or to this item:
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/2-4G-Wireless-Module-TLG10UA03-Embedded-Uart-Wifi-Module-UART-WiFi-Network-Server-Client-IEEE802-11b/988481350.html
(http://www.aliexpress.com/item/2-4G-Wireless-Module-TLG10UA03-Embedded-Uart-Wifi-Module-UART-WiFi-Network-Server-Client-IEEE802-11b/988481350.html)

only ~ 17 Bucks !


Doei
Trixi
Title: Re: Wifi without WiFi shield only with NRF24L01+possible ?
Post by: pico on Sep 11, 2013, 03:55 pm

only ~ 17 Bucks !


I think you'll find that using the RFXduino gateway you can deploy a WiFi enabled Uno-class Arduino compatible dev board (http://embeddedcoolness.com/shop/rfx-devboard-kit/) for < $20, all up, _including_ radio module... (that was a target price point for this project) so yes, significantly cheaper than even using a $17 wifi module from Aliexpress.

If there is a cheaper way to get a wifi enabled dev board deployed, of course I am interested, but I haven't seen anything that's even close so far.

Anyone else know of anything cheaper, or even comes close to $20/node?


 
Title: Re: Wifi without WiFi shield only with NRF24L01+possible ?
Post by: Frederic_Plante on Sep 11, 2013, 04:42 pm
Yeah, I'm actualy proposing a

1$ NRF module + 4$ ENC28 module + 5$ Mini pro Way. So although it is less developed then the link you propose, Hey I have to leave some challenge for the player, It pretty much cost 10$ delivery included and it's the same philosophy. Here: http://forum.arduino.cc/index.php?topic=179607 (http://forum.arduino.cc/index.php?topic=179607)

But this is Wireless, thru NRF24, but it's not a real WIFI network. Let's not get confused about this, this is a NRF24 to Ethernet gateway, its not WIFI, Just like a Bluetooth to Ethernet gateway is not WIFI.

And What I was proposing to Trixi was to replace the 4$ ENC28 module for a 17$, delivery included, serial to WIFI module,  for convenience, which is the one you can find here :

http://www.aliexpress.com/item/2-4G-Wireless-Module-TLG10UA03-Embedded-Uart-Wifi-Module-UART-WiFi-Network-Server-Client-IEEE802-11b/988481350.html (http://www.aliexpress.com/item/2-4G-Wireless-Module-TLG10UA03-Embedded-Uart-Wifi-Module-UART-WiFi-Network-Server-Client-IEEE802-11b/988481350.html)

This WIFI network adapter is cooler then the ENC28 module cause it has it's own IP Stacking built-in and it's WIFI adapter, but the result is still a NRF24 to WIFI gateway and not a WIFI network.

So that would make a 23$ project that does the same as the one you propose, if you put in some more coding.

Yeap that pretty much resume the thing. Have a nice one you guy. ;)
Title: Re: Wifi without WiFi shield only with NRF24L01+possible ?
Post by: Frederic_Plante on Sep 11, 2013, 05:10 pm
Yep but your gateway use RJ-45 connection and cost:

RFX Gateway daughterboard + SD Card
Price: $39.95

http://embeddedcoolness.com/shop/rfx-gateway-options/#!prettyPhoto (http://embeddedcoolness.com/shop/rfx-gateway-options/#!prettyPhoto)

The Wifi gateway I propose cost 23$, ok let's add 1$ worth of Dupon jumper wire,  2$ and for a SD card module, so 26$.

And worst case scenario let's go with a RJ-45 gateway, it's still still 12$ of modular piece + let's a 1$ Dupon jumper wire so 13$.

Personally I would go with the WIFI version cause it has stacking so you have more code space. It's better to pay the few extra buck to have the space to work well.

So RJ-45 to NRF24 cost 13$ double the price you get WIFI to NRF24.
Title: Re: Wifi without WiFi shield only with NRF24L01+possible ?
Post by: pico on Sep 11, 2013, 05:47 pm

But this is Wireless, thru NRF, but it's not a real WIFI network. Let's not get confused about this, this is a NRF to Ethernet gateway, its not WIFI, Just like a Bluetooth to Ethernet gateway is not WIFI.


Sure, and thats' a big difference: the RFXduino library actually includes support for TCP/IP streams across the nRF24L01+ link to the gateway, so you can run a webserver on your client Arduino, etc., just as if you had a WiFi shield. Check out the demo sketches: http://embeddedcoolness.com/docs/ (http://embeddedcoolness.com/docs/) A simple serial link to an Ethernet gateway such as a bluetooth link as you describe can't do this.


This network adapter is cooler then the ENC module cause it has it's own IP Stacking built-in and it's WIFI. So that would make a 23$ project that does pretty much the same as the one you propose, if you put in some more coding.


One thing to remember that using this approach is that you won't be able to secure sockets (SSL or TLS), so you can't connect to e.g. any url beginning https://. This is the same important limitation that the current WiFi shields and Ethernet shields run into.

This is not a problem when using the RFXduino gateway, because it is running Linux. That's why RFXduino is cheaper, simpler to program _and_ more powerful than the traditional WiFi/Ethernet shield approach.

Title: Re: Wifi without WiFi shield only with NRF24L01+possible ?
Post by: Frederic_Plante on Sep 11, 2013, 06:02 pm
Quote
This is not a problem when using the RFXduino gateway, because it is running Linux. That's why RFXduino is cheaper, simpler to program _and_ more powerful than the traditional WiFi/Ethernet shield approach.


For what I can see the Raspberry Pie version is running Linux, but this version cost a 40$ extra. We are far from the <20$ project. ;)
Title: Re: Wifi without WiFi shield only with NRF24L01+possible ?
Post by: Frederic_Plante on Sep 11, 2013, 06:07 pm
And still the answer to the question:

Quote
Wifi without WiFi shield only with NRF24L01+possible ?


Is still NO, your gateway is not a solution to connect a NRF24 card directly to a WIFI router as if it was a WIFI network adapter.

Don't get me wrong your product seam to have class and it look great, I say seam cause I have not tried it, but it's still not what Trixi is talking about.
Title: Re: Wifi without WiFi shield only with NRF24L01+possible ?
Post by: Trixi on Sep 11, 2013, 06:09 pm
Hoi Guys,

i ONLY want to connect with the Arduinos to my WLAN to send data from these via TCP/IP to a self-brewed Win-Software.
As i want to implement several Arduinos the costs should be as low as possible - thats as a short detailed info  :D

So no need (for MY project) to connect to webservers etc.

Doei
Trixi
Title: Re: Wifi without WiFi shield only with NRF24L01+possible ?
Post by: Frederic_Plante on Sep 11, 2013, 06:21 pm
Well at the end, What Pico propose is the all ready up and running solution that I propose, It the same thing by the end.

He is proposing gateway, just like i am. ;)

It's just a matter to know do you want to make it all by your self, or do you want to buy it all done and ready to go.
Title: Re: Wifi without WiFi shield only with NRF24L01+possible ?
Post by: pico on Sep 11, 2013, 06:37 pm

Quote
This is not a problem when using the RFXduino gateway, because it is running Linux. That's why RFXduino is cheaper, simpler to program _and_ more powerful than the traditional WiFi/Ethernet shield approach.


For what I can see the Raspberry Pie version is running Linux, but this version cost a 40$ extra. We are far from the <20$ project. ;)


It depends on how many clients (Arduinos) you run off the gateway. A single Raspberry Pi Linux gateway can connect multiple (up to a maximum of 255) Arduino clients to the network. After the inital cost of the gateway, additional clients can be deployed for < $20 each.

If you were only interested in deploying _one_ project to connect wirelessly to the Internet, I agree the the cost argument (by itself) is not particularly convincing. But if you want to deploy _two_ wireless projects, it becomes more compelling, and the more projects you want to deploy, the more compelling the price calculation becomes. I think by the time you get to three projects generally you will be way ahead of the game.

So, properly speaking, < $20 / node is what economists would call the marginal cost of deploying each additional node. But it is true, the gateway is an additional once off start-up cost, and it has to be divided by the number of deployed nodes to calculate the true cost of deployment per node.

But the marginal rate is important to consider. It's the number you consider when you ask yourself the question: "Should I make my next project wireless or not?" I wanted that number to be low enough that the cost was never a reason to prevent me adding wireless to a project, if I would otherwise add it. For me, $20 was the critical price point; for others it might be more or less, but that's why $20 was a "magic" number for the RFXduino project.


Title: Re: Wifi without WiFi shield only with NRF24L01+possible ?
Post by: Frederic_Plante on Sep 11, 2013, 06:44 pm
Just can't wait to my hand on the new Yùn to give it a test drive:

http://store.arduino.cc/ww/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=11_12&products_id=313

Raspberry is nice but they like to sell there software, while Arduino has the good habit of giving every thing.

Title: Re: Wifi without WiFi shield only with NRF24L01+possible ?
Post by: pico on Sep 11, 2013, 06:45 pm

And still the answer to the question:

Quote
Wifi without WiFi shield only with NRF24L01+possible ?


Is still NO, your gateway is not a solution to connect a NRF24 card directly to a WIFI router as if it was a WIFI network adapter.


You are correct. It is, of course, simply not possible to connect a nRF24L01+ directly to a WiFi router. A gateway or bridge of some sort is needed.


Don't get me wrong your product seam to have class and it look great, I say seam cause I have not tried it, but it's still not what Trixi is talking about.


Thanks for your kind words.  :)  I hadn't thought that Trixie might have been asking whether a nRF24L01+ module could connect to a WiFi router directly without a gateway or bridge.
Title: Re: Wifi without WiFi shield only with NRF24L01+possible ?
Post by: pico on Sep 11, 2013, 06:53 pm

Well at the end, What Pico propose is the all ready up and running solution that I propose, It the same thing by the end.

He is proposing gateway, just like i am. ;)


Well, if I understand your proposal correctly, your gateway is not running Linux, but rather is a Arduino-class device?

In that case, the differences are actually quite significant; the raw processing power of a Raspberry Pi class device is many, many times that of an Arduino, and that becomes important e.g., in scaling to handling multiple devices at once.

So yes, both gateways, but there is much difference in the implementation detail, and that matters.

Title: Re: Wifi without WiFi shield only with NRF24L01+possible ?
Post by: Frederic_Plante on Sep 11, 2013, 06:58 pm
Quote
In that case, the differences are actually quite significant; the raw processing power of a Raspberry Pi class device is many, many times that of an Arduino,


Yeap that is true for sure. And that why I was talking about the Yùn up there.

But in the same way, your solution is not much different from the WIFI to UART adapter once you have a tight programmed mini pro to do the transition between UART and SPI.

The thing is you need a board that has IP Stacking built in so you don't use your resources to do the stacking.
Title: Re: Wifi without WiFi shield only with NRF24L01+possible ?
Post by: pico on Sep 11, 2013, 07:02 pm

Just can't wait to my hand on the new Yùn to give it a test drive:

http://store.arduino.cc/ww/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=11_12&products_id=313



Yes, the Yun looks interesting; like RFXduino, it is actually a Linux gateway system as well, it just has a Linux gateway attached to every dev board!

Which is one way of doing it, but ultimately perhaps not the most efficient way of doing it. And which means that I don't think it's going to get down to < $20 /node deployment any time soon. ;)



Raspberry is nice but they like to sell there software, while Arduino has the good habit of giving every thing.



Well, Arduino don't actually give away everything, at least not the last time I looked. But if in fact, Arduino are giving away their Yuns, let me know...   :smiley-mr-green:
Title: Re: Wifi without WiFi shield only with NRF24L01+possible ?
Post by: Frederic_Plante on Sep 11, 2013, 07:06 pm
Bien you don't put the Yùn on every project, you put a NRF24 on the Yùn SPI  to turn it in to a NRF24 to WIFI or Ethernet gateway, and you go with cheaper board for all the project you Have. Basically the Yùn replace the Raspberry in your gateway project.

And when I say Arduino give away stuff I'm talking about the software of coarse.
Title: Re: Wifi without WiFi shield only with NRF24L01+possible ?
Post by: pico on Sep 11, 2013, 07:12 pm

Quote
In that case, the differences are actually quite significant; the raw processing power of a Raspberry Pi class device is many, many times that of an Arduino,


Yeap that is true for sure. And that why I was talking about the Yùn up there.

But in the same way, your solution is not much different from the WIFI to UART adapter once you have a tight programmed mini pro to do the transition between UART and SPI.


I think you'll find there is much, much more difference than you realise. How many client Arduinos do you think a 328p class device can handle at once and keep up an acceptable bandwidth for each? How many port connections can you have simultaneously open with an ENC28 module?


The thing is you need a board that has IP Stacking built in so you don't use your resources to do the stacking.


When you got a CPU running at 700MHz+, 512MB of RAM to play with, and 8GB of SD Card storage, a Linux software stack is no problem at all... :smiley-mr-green:

Title: Re: Wifi without WiFi shield only with NRF24L01+possible ?
Post by: pico on Sep 11, 2013, 07:22 pm

Bien you don't put the Yùn on every project, you put a NRF24 on the Yùn SPI  to turn it in to a NRF24 to WIFI or Ethernet gateway, and you go with cheaper board for all the project you Have. Basically the Yùn replace the Raspberry in your gateway project.


Yes, except the RPi is running a full Debian Linux distro and the Yun is only running OpenWRT, which is a fairly cut down and minimalist version of Linux designed for routers. It's also running a significantly less powerful processor than the RPi. It could be made to work, but what I've read about it, I think performance would be significantly compromised.

The main reason I chose the RPi for the gateway device was simply the power/cost ratio. Hard to beat, just like the nRF24L01+ radios.

But I'm glad to see you agree with the basic Linux gateway philosophy. I think the Yun is still way too expensive to deploy on every project.


And when I say Arduino give away stuff I'm talking about the software of coarse.


I know. I'm just saying that everyone has their business models, even Arduino, and no-one stays in business very long giving everything away for free all the time. And Arduino hardware is _far_ from free!
Title: Re: Wifi without WiFi shield only with NRF24L01+possible ?
Post by: Frederic_Plante on Sep 11, 2013, 07:22 pm
Well let's refere to there :
http://arduino.cc/en/Main/ArduinoBoardYun (http://arduino.cc/en/Main/ArduinoBoardYun)

Quote
AVR Arduino microcontroller
Microcontroller   ATmega32u4
Operating Voltage   5V
Input Voltage   5V
Digital I/O Pins   20
PWM Channels   7
Analog Input Channels   12
DC Current per I/O Pin   40 mA
DC Current for 3.3V Pin   50 mA
Flash Memory   32 KB (of which 4 KB used by bootloader)
SRAM   2.5 KB
EEPROM   1 KB
Clock Speed   16 MHz
Linux microprocessor
Processor   Atheros AR9331
Architecture   MIPS @400MHz
Operating Voltage   3.3V
Ethernet   IEEE 802.3 10/100Mbit/s
WiFi   IEEE 802.11b/g/n
USB Type-A   2.0 Host/Device
Card Reader   Micro-SD only
RAM   64 MB DDR2
Flash Memory   32 MB


For sure the Raspberry has more resources, but seriously who would really run 255 devices? Some maybe but Mister any one would do just fine with the Yùn. Plus the Yùn has the advantage to be in the same scheme of programming as all your other Arduino device.

Doesn't take much to screew your mind up when you have to pass from one language of programmation to the other. Having one and only one scheme to work with save time of changing from one philosophy to the other. To me it's very important.

Finaly i'm pretty sure that they did not put an ENC28 on the Yùn, it's probably more a W5100 network device.
Title: Re: Wifi without WiFi shield only with NRF24L01+possible ?
Post by: Frederic_Plante on Sep 11, 2013, 07:27 pm
With time, it's gonna turn into the same kind of fight that PC and MAC has, but what really matter is, does your computer is up to do what you need to do. There both good in there own way. ;)

And for now, I can't even say is Yùn is good since I have not tried the device.
Title: Re: Wifi without WiFi shield only with NRF24L01+possible ?
Post by: Frederic_Plante on Sep 11, 2013, 07:39 pm
Talking about amazing and expensive board, have you tried the BeagleBone? I'm looking for feed back before give it a try.
Title: Re: Wifi without WiFi shield only with NRF24L01+possible ?
Post by: pico on Sep 11, 2013, 07:49 pm

Well let's refere to there :
http://arduino.cc/en/Main/ArduinoBoardYun (http://arduino.cc/en/Main/ArduinoBoardYun)
Microcon

Quote

Linux microprocessor
Processor   Atheros AR9331
Architecture   MIPS @400MHz
Operating Voltage   3.3V
Ethernet   IEEE 802.3 10/100Mbit/s
WiFi   IEEE 802.11b/g/n
USB Type-A   2.0 Host/Device
Card Reader   Micro-SD only
RAM   64 MB DDR2
Flash Memory   32 MB



The main thing I compare here is RPI: 700MHz+ (vs 400MHz Yun), 512MB Ram (vs 64MB Yun).


For sure the Raspberry has more resources, but seriously who would really run 255 devices? Some maybe but Mister any one would do just fine with the Yùn. Plus the Yùn has the advantage to be in the same scheme of programming as all your other Arduino device.


It's true, few people would need to connect 255 devices. But I'm running 14 at the moment connected through a single RPi gateway in my home network, and I wouldn't think that's unusual for many keen embedded device enthusiasts (there's always another project!). It's also about having the spare maximum capacity to run well in the average case... I just really don't think the Yun would have the capacity to do this nearly as well.


Doesn't take much to screew your mind up when you have to pass from one language of programmation to the other. Having one and only one scheme to work with save time of changing from one philosophy to the other. To me it's very important.


As for the same scheme, I run gcc when I program the Arduinos, and I run gcc when I program the RPi. I even run the same editor (emacs) programming both devices. I like gcc and emacs. Keeps me sane (sort of). :smiley-mr-green:


Finaly i'm pretty sure that they did not put an ENC28 on the Yùn, it's probably more a W5100 network device.


Yes, I'm sure the Yun would have something more capable than an ENC28. I was referring to your original gateway proposal with the ENC28.

On balance, I think the Yun will be a good thing for the RFXduino project, as it will make people a bit more familiar with the whole Arduino+Linux gateway concept, and its great potential to make things simpler and yet more powerful. That's the message I've been preaching! I think sometimes I'm a bit misunderstood though because the concept isn't quite mainstream yet in the Arduino community.

But I think that's going to change.
Title: Re: Wifi without WiFi shield only with NRF24L01+possible ?
Post by: pico on Sep 11, 2013, 08:03 pm

Talking about amazing and expensive board, have you tried the BeagleBone? I'm looking for feed back before give it a try.


No, I haven't got one yet, but only because I've been too busy. I think they look like really nicely thought out boards, and obviously priced to go head to head with the RPis.

I was toying with the idea of porting the RFXduino gateway to a BBBlack just to compare performance, and I may still do this at some stage. But I think strategically the RPi is the preferable platform for the gateway, because there are probably a lot of RPis out there that were bought when they came out and have been sitting on shelves looking for something to do. So the RFXduino gateway is something they can do, if they've been underemployed!

Also, the RPis have the benefit of a larger and more established user community, and so on. But in terms of raw specs, the BBBlack is a very attractive proposition... I'll definitely be getting one, just not sure when.
Title: Re: Wifi without WiFi shield only with NRF24L01+possible ?
Post by: Frederic_Plante on Sep 11, 2013, 08:27 pm
Quote
... as it will make people a bit more familiar with the whole Arduino+Linux gateway concept, and its great potential to make things simpler and yet more powerful. That's the message I've been preaching! I think sometimes I'm a bit misunderstood though because the concept isn't quite mainstream yet in the Arduino community.


Personally I believe the greatest device are running under Linux. And not just gateways, but network printers, networked cameras, all that can be networked. And that why I was like "Finally they made some thing like the Yùn!!!" Cause they were loosing all the level 2 programmer to other kind of board like RPie..

But the thing is, Arduino is espacially there to initiate mister anyone to programming something else then a PC. So they have to put all the basic stuff on the same board. And then they have to make an IDE that is simple enogh for anyone to use it.

And I believe that on all these levels they deserve a big BRAVO.
Title: Re: Wifi without WiFi shield only with NRF24L01+possible ?
Post by: Frederic_Plante on Sep 11, 2013, 08:36 pm
Ouf I have a 6gig max download monthly this gcc installation scare the crap out of me ;)
Title: Re: Wifi without WiFi shield only with NRF24L01+possible ?
Post by: pico on Sep 11, 2013, 08:38 pm

And I believe that on all these levels they deserve a big BRAVO.


Agreed!