Arduino Forum

Development => Suggestions for the Arduino Project => Topic started by: fat16lib on Jul 06, 2014, 04:11 pm

Title: Does Arduino have a future?
Post by: fat16lib on Jul 06, 2014, 04:11 pm
In 2005, Massimo Banzi needed a teaching tool to introduce students to electronics and the result was Arduino.

Now, in 2014, it is not clear where Arduino is going. Here is a quote from  Massimo Banzi.
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We're working on the Arduino Tre, which will be a super small Linux machine, kind of like the Raspberry Pi, that can work with a screen and a keyboard. But even simpler than that, because we want people without a lot of experience in technology to be able to just plug it in and use it. Even if they don't understand Linux yet.

Seems like Arduino is following Pi, BeagleBone, and other companies.  Has Arduino lost its way?

There are now many options for hobby electronics.  These range from Android devices to Field Programmable Gate Arrays.

I ask this question because I don't find new Arduino products very exciting.  I would rather play with BeagleBone Black Rev C than Tre.

There are also totally new areas to explore.  I never expected to see a hobby product like Mojo with FPGAs http://embeddedmicro.com/products/mojo-v3.html (http://embeddedmicro.com/products/mojo-v3.html).

How do I interpret this mission statement for the future of Arduino?
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Arduino is an open-source electronics prototyping platform based on flexible, easy-to-use hardware and software. It's intended for artists, designers, hobbyists and anyone interested in creating interactive objects or environments.

Arduino is an incredible success but what about the future?
Title: Re: Does Arduino have a future?
Post by: Peter_n on Jul 06, 2014, 04:42 pm
To start with Arduino, a blinking led is very exiting.
The Atmel chips like the ATmega328 are perfect for a simple job, but the cheap ARM chips are hard to ignore.
I think that a basic and cheap chips will be used, and chips with more and other possibilities will be added. So in my opinion, Arduino will be with us for the next 10 or 20 or 30 years.
The FPGA chips are something else, it would need a lot of work to get those into the Arduino IDE.

In the future a FPGA might be build into a microcontroller, to have the best of both worlds.
Title: Re: Does Arduino have a future?
Post by: Riva on Jul 06, 2014, 07:41 pm
It does seem arduino teams goal is to bring new products to market but I feel the support/software for these new devices lags behind. I have had a Duo since it's launch but it has hardly been used. Initially this was because I was not geared up for 3.3V and the documentation/IDE was beta, several months down the line and the IDE is still beta and it seems the takeup/support is not what was (I) hoped. I have since found the Teensy3.1 that seems to be what the Duo could have been.

Maybe we should dust off the old 8051 and it's derivatives and drag them into the 21st century with standardized design/pin outs and IDE.
Title: Re: Does Arduino have a future?
Post by: fat16lib on Jul 06, 2014, 08:18 pm
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Arduino will be with us for the next 10 or 20 or 30 years.


Doing what?  Like Compaq, DEC, Novell, and many other big high tech companies?  This is just a few of the companies I thought would dominate their market for decades.

Arduino feels like a company that is living on its past success.  I don't plan on buying a Tre, Zero, Intel Galileo, or any other new Arduino board I know about.
Title: Re: Does Arduino have a future?
Post by: Jantje on Jul 06, 2014, 08:29 pm

Arduino feels like a company that is living on its past success.  I don't plan on buying a Tre, Zero, Intel Galileo, or any other new Arduino board I know about.

I feel the yun is really worth looking at. Though a yun mega or a yun teensy3.1 would have been a killer
Title: Re: Does Arduino have a future?
Post by: Chagrin on Jul 09, 2014, 09:57 am
Atmel's AVR chips are falling behind the ARM chips (Teensy, Maple, etc.). They need to start kicking up the clock speed and memory to stay competitive. That's my only concern.

With respect to the Raspberry Pi, Beaglebone, etc., those are not microcontrollers. There will always be tons of situations where just a simple microcontroller is warranted and AVR chips will always have their place there.
Title: Re: Does Arduino have a future?
Post by: bperrybap on Jul 10, 2014, 08:03 am

There will always be tons of situations where just a simple microcontroller is warranted and AVR chips will always have their place there.

While I agree that micontrollers will have a place for quite some time, I'm not as
sure about the 8 bit AVRs. I find it increasing painful to deal with when there are other
chips out there that are the same price point like the pic32 that have oodles more
of everything on them, are 32 bit, MUCH faster and don't have the all the split memory
progmem issues.

I mean consider this, if you had your choice, and the cost was the same,
would you pick an 8 bit processor that runs at 16 Mhz with 32k flash, 2k ram, and a funky split
address space where C const data doesn't work
or would you pick a 32 bit processor that runs at 50 Mhz, with 128k of flash, 32k ram,
lots more i/o and peripherals including native USB AND C const data works.

The point is that other much better chips than the 8 bit AVRs are now already available
for the same cost - including in DIP packages,
so I believe that people will start to migrate away from the 8 bit AVRs and eventually leave them behind.

I would bet that if the Arduino were starting to day, it would use a PIC32MX250f128B
rather than the Atmega8.


--- bill
Title: Re: Does Arduino have a future?
Post by: DrOldies on Jul 13, 2014, 06:30 pm
I needed more speed for my projects so I've been testing the DUE, Teensy3, and ChipKit UNO32. I agree that the added power over the original Arduino's is an advantage. The fact that they are Adruino "compatible," can use the large number of arduino libraries, and user experience base, gives them an advantage over "non-compatibles." For example, the much smaller user base for ChipKit has made it harder for me to use this board.

The Galileo will need to develop a user base pretty much from scratch. The TRE is somewhere in between. I'm waiting to see how Arduino compatible the TRE user interface is. I have not see a review of the BeagleBone part of the TRE board. If the BeagleBone is $79, how much more will the TRE be? It's like car companies, they make a cheap Volkswagon Beetle, (I'm old enough to know how cheap the first US volkswagon's were) then over time grow it into a Cadillac. More gadgets I don't need, and more complicated for us less experienced to learn and use.  Where does that leave the hobbiest? The  DUE, Teensy3, and ChipKits  are today's Beetle - a bit faster, a bit more complicated, and a bit more expensive - but still affordable.
Title: Re: Does Arduino have a future?
Post by: dannable on Jul 14, 2014, 09:47 am
I think if it is to have a future then the infamous Uno 'avrdude: stk500_recv(): ' errors need to be addressed. How many new users encounter this issue and don't get a resolution I wonder? And that is probably the last time they spend money on this platform, maybe this hobby.
Title: Re: Does Arduino have a future?
Post by: Riva on Jul 14, 2014, 10:08 am

I think if it is to have a future then the infamous Uno 'avrdude: stk500_recv(): ' errors need to be addressed.

I have never seen this problem myself with a genuine Arduino board & drivers. Some of the new platforms like the ST Nuclio (http://www.st.com/web/catalog/tools/FM116/SC959/SS1532/LN1847?sc=stm32nucleo) present a flash drive to the connected PC and programming is as simple as dragging the compiled file into the drive.
Title: Re: Does Arduino have a future?
Post by: fat16lib on Jul 14, 2014, 06:48 pm
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While I agree that micontrollers will have a place for quite some time, I'm not as
sure about the 8 bit AVRs.

I started to use Arduino because I wanted an easy way to work with microcontrollers. 

I started using Arduino in 2008 and wrote the Fat16 library for the 168 Arduino with 16 KB flash and 1 KB SRAM.  It was just a toy to play with.

Now I want a microcontroller like Cortex M4 with more power than AVR but not an application processor designed for "hosting a rich OS platform" like the Cortex A series.

I have been developing a new FAT file system using STM32F4 processors.  The difference in capability over AVR is overwhelming.  I tried to love the Arduino Due when it came out but couldn't.

Here are two examples. 

The ADC on AVR Arduinos run at a max of about 10 ksps with analogRead.  You can increase the clock speed and get fair, not full 10-bit, accuracy at 40 ksps.  Low end STM32F4 ADCs can do 2.4 msps, about 60 times faster than AVR with 12-bit accuracy and very flexible DMA.  High end STM32F4 chips can run three ADCs interleaved for 7.2 msps.

I am developing a new file system for high end embedded processors.  The STM32F4 has a good, not great, SDIO controller which can run the 4-bit bus at over 48 MHz.  I have achieved sustained read speeds over 20 MB/sec.  I have sustained write speeds of 12 MB/sec but this is a limited by the SD card I am using.  I have ordered a new Samsung Pro card and hope to write at close to 20 MB/sec.

The AVR can never read or write faster than about 500 KB/sec that's about the best you can do with program I/O on the 8 MHz SPI bus.  In addition SD cards don't present their fast commands on the SPI bus, only on the SDIO bus.  This means you will have very long occasional write latencies with SD cards on the SPI bus.

The Arduino system software is not adequate for these new chips. You really need priority based pre-emptive scheduling to take full advantage of the features of these chips.  Most chip manufactures are now providing a free RTOS solution.  ST and Atmel provide FreeRTOS ports, Freescale has MQX, and there are other great systems like ChibiOS.

I really enjoy development with boards like the  STM32F4 Nucleo boards.  ChibiOS can do about 1.2 million context switches per second on the NUCLEO-F411RE.  I am using a Olimex stm32-H407 and it can do a context switch in 400 ns.  The 407 has 196 KB SRAM and 1 MB flash.
Title: Re: Does Arduino have a future?
Post by: JChristensen on Jul 14, 2014, 06:57 pm

This means you will have very long occasional write latencies with SD cards on the SPI bus.


I think I noticed this while working on a recent project and wondered why it happened.
Title: Re: Does Arduino have a future?
Post by: Mr_arduino on Jul 15, 2014, 04:52 pm
fat16lib I must say that I have had a similar experience with the stm32f4 discovery board. Today I was messing around with some of my camera modules that I own and was amazed on the ease of use. All I had to do was setup the DCMI and DMA peripheral and then I can easily take pictures without cpu intervention. I also wrote a program that does real time sample synthesis that is impossible on the arduinos based on AVR mcus.
Title: Re: Does Arduino have a future?
Post by: 68tjs on Jul 16, 2014, 04:27 pm
To discuss the future of Arduino there should be more transparency about project in development: TRE and Zero.
- What problems remain?
- Date of delivery
- Selling price
- Progress in library. Remaining bugs.

I have some other remarks :
Quote
In the future a FPGA might be build into a microcontroller, to have the best of both worlds.

One built a microcontroler inside an FPGA and not the contrary. It soon exist: Xilink and Altera propose this.

Quote
[Quote from: dannable on July 14, 2014, 08:47:36 am]
I think if it is to have a future then the infamous Uno 'avrdude: stk500_recv(): ' errors need to be addressed.

Quote
I have never seen this problem myself with a genuine Arduino board & drivers.

You perhaps, but I yes. I buy an genuine UNO R2 in an official reseller and it was buggy :  Win 7 and Linux don't recognize it.
At the date of purchase the bug was solved since four months but bugged cards has been sold without correction.

I am convinced that there are three markets:
- Simple applications where avr 8 bits is sufficient
- Most powerful applications where ARM is necessary
- This of some beginners who do not know how to use a microcontroller but absolutely want the most powerful and newest model.
For this market you need one card but no more, it is useless.

The market targeted by the TRE is absolutely not this of beginners.
I find that in this headlong rush, Arduino abandons its core market to a semi-professional market.
In this semi-professional market it will face the MBED project (NXP, Freescale, ST, and so on.) .
For your  information signe on MED , you will discover a true professional environment with a free personal git.
They come from the professional market and they can crush Arduino.
To survive Arduino must not leave the market for beginners and avr.


Three members of forum fit respectively  Eclipse, Code Blocks and Xcode   to arduino libraries .
Whoever adapted Xcode leaves Arduino to Energia, tired that arduino team does not answer his questions.
So Mac user who want use Xcode will switch to Energia.

Why there  has no support from the team ?
The work was done, they had only to formalize and integrate the authors in the team.
May be  they do not want anyone in the team to be able to control everything ?
Title: Re: Does Arduino have a future?
Post by: michinyon on Jul 21, 2014, 11:04 pm
I got two stm32f4,   and compared to the arduino,   they are very hard to use.

Once I got the thing to work,  which took about a year [  I was distracted by other things ],   I implemented a lot of the arduino functions on it so I could use the same stuff.

Title: Re: Does Arduino have a future?
Post by: 68tjs on Jul 22, 2014, 09:39 am
What do you compare :
avr 8bits with STM32 ARM 32 bits
or
DUE ARM 32 bits with STM32 ?

If is the first case I agree  with you, but if is comparing carrots with patatoes.
Title: Re: Does Arduino have a future?
Post by: ODwyerPW on Jul 22, 2014, 07:58 pm
I've just received a Tiva C-Series TM4C1294XL evaluation board from Texas Instruments.. $20 usd.. (I wish the evaluation board included the microSD interface for a few more dollars, but oh well...)
I will see if it is better suited for some of the more challenging personal projects I'm working on where I had originally intended to use DUE.

However, for some really simple projects with commercial application that I'm developing.. 8 bit Arduino UNO gave me the skills and confidence to move to Tiny84a for the release project. Even Tiny84a is more powerful than I need, but I'm sure I would not have stumbled upon this little guy, if it weren't for diving into Arduino and the DUE 18 months ago.
Title: Re: Does Arduino have a future?
Post by: fat16lib on Jul 22, 2014, 10:34 pm
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I've just received a Tiva C-Series TM4C1294XL evaluation board from Texas Instruments.

Looks like a nice board.

This is great, the major companies are all building boards that can compete with Adruino and are talking to users.
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We are looking forward meeting Makers and showcasing the MCU LaunchPad development ecosystem at Maker Faire Bay Area in San Mateo, Calif.


These companies are also working with universities to provide better tools and products for labs.
Title: Re: Does Arduino have a future?
Post by: westfw on Jul 23, 2014, 12:02 am
Quote
It's intended for artists, designers, hobbyists and anyone interested in creating interactive objects or environments.

For this market, a product has to be "right-sized."  The Duemilanove with m168 was about perfect for a lot of things; the m328 versions added additional memory space "for free", so that was OK too.

The next question is "what else will people pay for?"  Arduino MEGA?  Networking?  Depressingly overpriced in the Arduino arena, IMO.  But a lot of those "art" and "design" projects seem to have a weird budget model (compared to "hobbyist" or "commercial" anyway.)

After that, perhaps "how much can be improved at the same price points?"  I haven't been inclined to do much with MEGA or Due, but I have some Teensy3 modules, ChipKits, and m1284 boards.  They're swell, I think.  Arduino Zero might have potential.

Things like the RPi, BeagleBone, ST, NXP, and TI ARM boards have always bothered me.  As a hobbyist, they're OK.  But my theoretical "goal" is small scale production of custom electronics (say, 100 to 1000 boards?)  With a mega328-sized design, I can easily plunk down the "meat" of an arduino on my own board design, assemble them by hand, and be done.  For the small pitch parts on the "more powerful" designs, I don't think that there is any way I can duplicate the cost of the sold boards with my own board, by the time I do the 4+ layer PCB and contract assembly.  Maybe I shouldn't care, and using vendor-subsidized
modules with questionable product lifetimes and licensing issues is the way to go. :-(

I watched with some amusement and horror as linux system administration issues on RPi and BB replace the programming and electronics issues people have with Arduino/etc. :-(

I'd like to see an OS that is closer to Bare Metal for BB and RPi.  Or an OS for  Teensy/NXP/ST/TI that is better than the current bare metal, without sacrificing the "ease of use" of the Arduino libraries.  But I don't think that either one exists yet. :-(
Title: Re: Does Arduino have a future?
Post by: fat16lib on Jul 23, 2014, 03:28 pm
Small simple projects will continue to use the bare metal approach.  An OS makes little sense for under 32 KB of program space.  A simple development environment is adequate.

For larger DIY/hobby projects using 32-bit processors there are now many hardware options and the future will bring many more.  It would be a shame to be limited to choices made by the Arduino company.

About 30 years ago big science faced a similar situation.  From the late 1960s to mid 1980s DEC (Digital Equipment Corp)  minicomputers dominates control and data acquisition in large science experiments.  DEC supplied the software environment with systems like RSX/M, a real time system, and VMS for larger VAX machines.

Around 1985 single board computers based on the MC68000 and other microprocessors started to be used There was no standard OS for these boards.

Fortunately two of my friends, Jerry Fiddler, and David Wilner, had left the Lab in 1982 and founded Wind River Systems.  Wind River developed VxWorks which is a flexible RTOS that can be targeted to a wide variety of processors.  VxWorks became very popular in large physics experiments, space experiments like the NASA Clementine moon probe, and the Mars landers.  This defacto standardization was really important for big science at that time.

UNIX on SUN and other work stations became the standard OS for operator consoles and other non-real time applications . Linux is now  the best choice for boards like Rpi and BB that have Cortex Application processors.

The problem is that there are too many RTOS choices for micro-controllers like Cortex M and PIC32.  Many companies are supporting FreeRTOS but it is not technically outstanding.

I like ChibiOS/RT but it only has great HAL support for STM32.

I think Arduino is like Digital Equipment Corp and will fade in the same way.  There will are too many other outstanding hardware options and there will be even more in the future.

There is not an obvious software solution for DIY/hobby users.  FreeRTOS supports a wide variety of hardware, just look at this list http://www.freertos.org/RTOS_ports.html (http://www.freertos.org/RTOS_ports.html).  FreeRTOS is just not very exciting.

Too bad it is so easy to build a little RTOS kernel, this means there are many half baked RTOS systems instead of a project like UNIX and it's follow on, Linux.

westfw is right, the problem is the proper OS for DIY/hobby users.
Quote
Or an OS for  Teensy/NXP/ST/TI that is better than the current bare metal, without sacrificing the "ease of use" of the Arduino libraries.  But I don't think that either one exists yet.
Title: Re: Does Arduino have a future?
Post by: ODwyerPW on Jul 24, 2014, 02:53 am
Kowalski's work with Cosa is a really interesting development for a C++ OO Framework. It's a bare metal approach that will give us some task scheduling that might allow us to do some things that we expect an RTOS to accomplish. He's not included any of the ARM core MCUs. If he expanded it to Cortex-M3.. for DUE.. .Then we'd want him to expand it to Cortex-M0 for ZERO.... then there would be others of us who'd like to see it expanded to Cortex-M4 for TI Tiva C series.

Then there's the IDE. Not very powerful... but hides allot of the ugliness. The Wiring based IDE forked and used by Arduino (for Arduino AVR and Cortex M0 and M3) and Texas Instruments (Energia for TI Tiva C Series) . So although there is fun stuff happening with Visual Studio and Xcode Addins, the Arduino team hiding all of the ugliness with the tool chains and so forth makes a compelling case for just putting up with the weak IDE. It's still very easy to use.

There's the hardware itself.  I wish that they could have made use of the native Ethernet and SDIO/MMC capabilities of the ATSAM3X8E and installed a physical RJ45 and microSD slot on the DUE. Instead, DUE ended up being a faster MEGA with lots of library issues to work out. They will give us all of that with the TRE, but all appearances are at increased complexity and costs. Perhaps the Arduino ZERO should have come first....   Maybe we will get a Quattro based on the Cortex-M4 and give us the missing pieces from DUE and Tiva C Series (looking at you SDIO interface... really wanted that included in the TI Launchpad!).

I like the idea of having built in microSD support, Ethernet and getting eeprom back.... but I don't want to have to school myself on Linux to get it.

Whether or not Arduino survives.. I'm not sure... none of us are privy to their financial performance. But they certainly have benefited the Maker crowd and Academia by getting the cost of basic prototyping platforms down to levels we can all afford to use! I think they've gotten the attention of bigger folks (Texas Instruments). Increased competition drives innovation and costs.

Maybe the Italians have a little work to convince us that ZERO, UNO, DUE and TRE are a real complimentary family of products....  instead of radical departures at each turn.  We've got CortexM3 with DUE.... then TRE is announced and grabs TI's Sitari (aka BeagelBone) architecture and drags along AVR with it... then we move on to ZERO and we are back in the Atmel fold with the CortexM0....  I've given Arduino lots of cash by purchasing official boards/shields and I've supported 3rd party development through clones/shields/others. But ultimately, for me, it's about a working, well supported product. We know UNO and MEGA are great.... everything else they are developing/doing feels like such a departure that we don't hesitate to look at other architectures, other vendors products. As a user community, we have no idea where Arduino is going.... 

But maybe that's not that important.  Perhaps the Arduino folks aren't either? Looks like TI and Atmel are the big suppliers for Academia and the Maker set now (is it my imagination that PIC is losing out to these guys?). TI even promotes the BeagleBone boards on it's site and makes no bone (pun intended) about the Tiva C series taking advantage of the Arduino and Wiring Frameworks, despite both of them being competitors to their own development boards. Maybe we will see a convergence of technologies, architectures and methodologies... Consider we've got AVR (Atmel 168, 328) Cortex-M3 (Atmel AM3X), Cortex-M0 (Atmel SAMD21), Cortex-M4 (Ti TM4C), Cortex A8 (Ti Sitari) architectures all running on a form of the Wiring Framework with forks of the same IDE developed in Processing.  Maybe Arduino IDE 2.0 will really extend the reach? The only questions might be do you want a board that uses Shields, Capes or BoosterPacks? Our skills may just easily transfer across platforms/vendors/products.

Wow, this got long fast.




Title: Re: Does Arduino have a future?
Post by: fat16lib on Jul 24, 2014, 04:51 pm
This feels like a search for the Holly Grail.

Quote
He's not included any of the ARM core MCUs. If he expanded it to Cortex-M3.. for DUE.. .Then we'd want him to expand it to Cortex-M0 for ZERO.... then there would be others of us who'd like to see it expanded to Cortex-M4 for TI Tiva C series.

I am mainly interested in Cortex-M processors.   There is no hope that one person or even a few people can provide an open source firmware library for these devices.

Here is a project with the goal for providing such a library http://libopencm3.org/wiki/Main_Page (http://libopencm3.org/wiki/Main_Page)
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The libopencm3 project (previously known as libopenstm32) aims to create a free/libre/open-source (LGPL v3, or later) firmware library for various ARM Cortex-M0(+)/M3/M4 microcontrollers, including ST STM32, Ti Tiva and Stellaris, NXP LPC 11xx, 13xx, 15xx, 17xx parts, Atmel SAM3, Energy Micro EFM32 and others.

They barely have software to configure the pins on devices. There is no support for SDIO on any device http://libopencm3.org/wiki/Status (http://libopencm3.org/wiki/Status).

Quote
Kowalski's work with Cosa is a really interesting development for a C++ OO Framework. It's a bare metal approach that will give us some task scheduling that might allow us to do some things that we expect an RTOS to accomplish.


Embedded systems are about time and Costa almost ignores problems of concurrency.  The importance of preemptive systems has been understood for over 40 years.
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Liu, C. L.; Layland, J. (1973), "Scheduling algorithms for multiprogramming in a hard real-time environment", Journal of the ACM 20 (1): 46-61,

Here is a summary of this important theoretical result http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rate-monotonic_scheduling (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rate-monotonic_scheduling).

There are lots of resources for Cortex M http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ARM_Cortex-M_development_tools (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ARM_Cortex-M_development_tools)  so I can't complain too much.
Title: Re: Does Arduino have a future?
Post by: westfw on Jul 27, 2014, 03:32 am
Ive been thinking about this for a bit, and I've had a couple of thoughts:

1) The original arduino was aimed at incorporating ELECTRONICS in art/design/hobby projects.  Because for a couple of decades now, the response to most "I want my thing to do something electronic" desires has been (and should be) "you should throw in a microcontroller to do that."   Except that using microcontrollers was difficult and relatively expensive (not counting Basic Stamps, I guess.)

The Arduino abstractions, philosophies, and libraries are more-or-less aimed at that "hardware replacement" function.  IMO, they did a pretty good job at defining these.  For that application.

2) That particular "bare-metal" treatment of a microcontroller/board is NOT particularly compatible with layering "on top of" an operating system.  Or processors that are much faster than the AVR, for that matter.  (Even a 16MHz AVR can push the ability of normal "wire" in a max-rate pin-toggle loop.  Fortunately, the form factor used encourages short wires!)  (as an example, look at the problems that happened when HardwareSerial transmit became interrupt-based...)

3) We need a sort of "backward" OS, where the high-level functions (like SD-card file access) are handled in the background, while the user's code runs at approximately bare-metal levels of priority/non-interference/etc.

4) That's not the way most modern OSes work.  Certainly not Linux, which is clearly the natural choice for most of the "big" cpu configurations.

5) The "target market" isn't really big enough to support development of a custom operating system :-(
Title: Re: Does Arduino have a future?
Post by: bobcousins on Jul 27, 2014, 12:31 pm
The architecture of AVR or cortex CPUs is essentially the same as those of 50 years ago, and in that time people have been wrestling with the problem of bare-metal vs OS.

Unfortunately, there is no way to create OS-like functionality without incurring some overhead.  The more independence of processing that you want, the more overhead you need. This is an inevitable feature of several processes sharing a single CPU core, memory and peripherals.

Fortunately, the hardware guys keep making faster chips, so we get round the problem that way. The alternative is to have independent cores, e.g. like the Parallax Propeller. But I am pretty sure there is no software trick to get the best of both worlds.

There is a niche at the bottom end for bare metal systems, and I think the basic Arduino will continue to provide an entry level type system for that. It's also clear there is demand for systems with rich environments like Raspberry Pi. The price/performance of those will continue to improve, and the price get closer to that of Arduino, if not already there.

What will probably not change is the middle ground, between bare metal and feature rich OS like Linux. For example, I would like to add TCP/IP, web server, USB host with support for wi-fi dongle to my bare metal project. That's a big chunk of code. There is no obvious off the shelf solution, or "go to" RTOS which supports all that out of the box.

The problem is that there are thousands of RTOS to choose from, but drivers and middleware for them is lacking. I think this is one area where diversity doesn't help, and a single standard would allow people to develop drivers and middleware instead of re-inventing the RTOS.

Perhaps the Japanese had the right idea with ITRON, but a government funded standard seems like anathema to the western way of doings. ITRON is claimed to be the most widely used OS (units shipped), but few people have heard of it.

Ironically, an old version of Unix might be a good real time OS, at least for 32 bit devices. It has a simple clean architecture and is well known.

The gap between 16MHz 8 bit AVR, and a 500MHz 32 bit ARM with 4MB RAM (roughly where Linux becomes runnable) is too big to be bridged with a single RTOS. It should be possible to scale from say 50MHz ARM with 32KB upwards on a single RTOS, but chips with a few kB of RAM will be too resource constrained to run anything more than a very basic RTOS if at all.

So I think Arduino will continue as a cheap and simple way to interface to electronics, systems like Beaglebone will reach the price point of Arduino, and the problem of the middle ground between bare metal and Linux will continue.

Perhaps the answer is dual function boards like Arduino Tre and UDOO, with a fast interface between the low and high level CPUs.
Title: Re: Does Arduino have a future?
Post by: westfw on Jul 28, 2014, 12:39 am
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an old version of Unix might be a good real time OS, at least for 32 bit devices.

One of the chipKit (PIC32 Arduino-like board) has had 2.9bsd ported to it.  Old time operating systems do not tend to handle "small ram, large flash" configurations very well.

The "big OS-running cpu" and "little bare-metal IO cpu" (ala Yun or those NXP M0/M4 chips) has potential, given suitable communications protocol(s).

A lot of intermediate-sized OS development gets distracted by "real time", which complicates everything and may not be necessary (arguably, Arduino is already NOT "real-time.")
Title: Re: Does Arduino have a future?
Post by: fat16lib on Jul 28, 2014, 03:51 pm
Quote
Unfortunately, there is no way to create OS-like functionality without incurring some overhead.

Modern embedded OSes are often more efficient than ad hoc solutions.  The algorithms in these systems have been under development for over 40 years.  It's like the difference between a bubble sort and quick sort.

Quote
A lot of intermediate-sized OS development gets distracted by "real time", which complicates everything and may not be necessary (arguably, Arduino is already NOT "real-time.")

Real-time and RTOS are unfortunate terms for an OS designed for embedded systems.  It's not about fast, it's about appropriate features.

Here are some quotes from "Introduction to Embedded Systems" by Lee & Seshia.  Download link  http://leeseshia.org/download.html (http://leeseshia.org/download.html)
Quote

The computers in embedded systems often do not interact directly with humans in the same way that desktop or handheld computers do. As a consequence, the collection of services that they need from an operating system (OS) may be very different. The dominant general-purpose OSs for desktops today, Microsoft Windows, Mac OS X, and Linux, provide services that may or may not be required in an embedded processor.


An OS for embedded systems should have a few additional featues.
Quote

These OSs share many features with general-purpose OSs, but typically have specialized the kernel to become a real-time operating system (RTOS). An RTOS provides bounded latency on interrupt servicing as well as a scheduler for processes that takes into account real-time constraints.


A microkernel and modularity is desirable.
Quote

The core of any operating system is the kernel, which controls the order in which processes are executed, how memory is used, and how information is communicated to peripheral devices and networks (via device drivers). A microkernel is very small operating system that provides only these services (or even a subset of these services).


I also believe features to support the "Internet of Things" are also important.  The OS should make it easy to inter-operate with phones and other modern smart devices.

Quote

The problem is that there are thousands of RTOS to choose from, but drivers and middleware for them is lacking. I think this is one area where diversity doesn't help, and a single standard would allow people to develop drivers and middleware instead of re-inventing the RTOS.

I have evaluated RTOSes for many years.  If you screen the long list of OSes with a few key requirements such as HAL support or driver support for your chip and a modular micokernel, the list will soon be reduced to a manageable size.

The major chip companies all support an RTOS with FreeRTOS being most popular.

RTOSes are now used in the majority of 32-bit embedded systems.  Billions of copies of OSes like VxWorks and FreeRTOS are now in every day products.
Title: Re: Does Arduino have a future?
Post by: ODwyerPW on Sep 24, 2014, 01:59 am
I'm curious to see ultimately what direction Arduino is going product wise. They didn't take the DUE far enough, not utilizing the native connectivity of the Cortex-M3 (sic.. Ethernet), the SD interface and others. But I guess they'd rather sell shields.

Do they feel users require a full applications processor (Sitari A8) with a proper OS (Linux) ala the TRE to enable the internet of things?

Or rather are they planning something (QUATTRO, QUA, AWD, 4WD or 4TO) with a just powerful enough microcontroller (Cortex-M4 or newly announced Cortex-M7) with a decent RTOS option to enable the same IoT?

Anyone heard any good rumors?

Title: Re: Does Arduino have a future?
Post by: MarkT on Sep 24, 2014, 03:07 am
If you want a better Arduino, design one.  You don't have to sit back and wait and then
grumble that its not what you would have done!

If you come up with a good design, evangelize it, kickstarter it, talk to Arduino, see
if its got wings...  After that you've earnt the right to grumble methinks.

Rather than fret about such issues, remember the strengths of open sourced designs
that allow anyone to build on the work of others.

[ slight rant over ]

It struck me this thread was too negative and "us and them".
Title: Re: Does Arduino have a future?
Post by: ODwyerPW on Sep 24, 2014, 03:34 am
Mark,

Honestly.. to design a 'better' Arduino is way beyond my capabilities. Lightyears. (To use an Arduino? Now I've done that plenty and had some fun.) The Arduino team is far brighter than I. I found some design decisions for a few recent products to be puzzling, but I don't think I was overtly critical.

However, I would reward the Arduino team with my hard earned dollars through purchase of a 'better' Arduino if they designed one. In fact, I've rewarded no less than 3 different manufactures of DUE alternatives who built a better mouse trap. Good stuff.

Thank you for your rant. Perhaps, now that you've expressed your righteous indignation of all of us ingrates,  the entire Arduino team can comfortably rest on it's laurels. I'm hoping they don't. I'm looking forward to more excellent products from them... Is it wrong to hope for them to go the extra mile on the next big release?

Peter
Title: Re: Does Arduino have a future?
Post by: westfw on Sep 24, 2014, 11:54 am
The problem is ... in general we don't need a "better arduino."  The 16MHz AVR is "just right" for a lot of the things that Arduino should be doing, while maintaining a pleasing simplicity.  If you want to spend two or three times as much to build a much more capable system (like an Intel Galileo, for instance), you're suddenly in a space that is more complicated, with a lot more potential solutions.
Title: Re: Does Arduino have a future?
Post by: jmontse on Oct 16, 2014, 09:51 pm
I think that the success of Arduino up to now is mainly due to the "easy of use" of its IDE and the libraries available.

  If the future of Arduino is to release new products , like the DUE, with  scarce libraries available despite the long period of time since DUE release,  then I fear that  the future will not be quite successful. 

  Fist complete the DUE work, demonstrate that Arduino can deliver complete HW+SW  and then go with THREE for minorities.

jma
Title: Re: Does Arduino have a future?
Post by: ODwyerPW on Oct 17, 2014, 10:40 pm
With DUE, Arduino went the cortex-m3 route; with TRE, they are going the cortex-a8 route; with Galileo, they will go x86 route. Lots of Cores/ISAs to keep straight; whereas UNO and it's derivates stayed the AVR course.

But I like to watch what 3rd part folks are doing. Take Atlas-Scientific for example. They build embedded circuitry for interfacing sensors to microcontrollers. Years ago you could find sample code for mbed and arduino uno and mega.

Fast forward and look at some recent developments: Now we have ARM kind of sorting opening up mbed and announcing development of mbed os v3.0.  We have Arduino playing with Cortex-M* ARM architectures. Guess what Atlas-Scientific's response to all of this development has been? You guessed it. Look on their website. No more mbed code samples. Their Arduino code samples are still just for UNO and Mega with no DUE (Cortex-M3) examples. It's still 8bit AVR from this supplier. In fact, they've recently modified and relaunched many of their products (under the EZO name) to include I2C functionality. And guess what? You got it, their code samples are still just Arduino Uno and Mega. They'll leave it up to you to make it work with the other stuff.

UNO/AVR is stable and well understood. That may be what folks are going to continue to use.  That's key: solid hardware/software support (ie. libraries, working features and documentation).

These Atlas-Scientific guys have a production facility in Flushing NY (not a cheap location). They sell allot of product. And they are saying to everyone who buys their product, "Hey, here's how you can get this to work easily with Arduino UNO. Here's some good C code that works with that tried and true architecture". That's a real testimony to what Arduino has accomplished with the UNO and it's AVR family.
Title: Re: Does Arduino have a future?
Post by: daniellyall on Oct 19, 2014, 01:03 am
Arduino will always have a market in the low end of speed requirements for uno and such like I am about to start a new project using  an arduino as a high end laser controller because its all I need, I could use Ti boards or what ever but at this stage it will be a wast to use them as the arduino has enough grunt to do the job for know
Title: Re: Does Arduino have a future?
Post by: Vaclav on Oct 21, 2014, 06:42 am
Very bleak after this latest improved web site which keeps telling me I have unread personal messages belonging to someone else. I did not read them, deleted them and it is still telling me I have them, but there are none in the box.
Since they only care if I post  unformatted code snippet nobody will read this anyway.
So why bother speculating on future. It is the present Arduino inc.  should be concerned.
Title: Re: Does Arduino have a future?
Post by: PCWorxLA on Oct 30, 2014, 04:31 am
The AVR based Arduinos will still be around for quite some time. While the ARM based ones provide more processing power, those more powerful chips are also more power hungry, making it much harder to impossible to use them for anything intended to run for longer time powered by batteries.
And the lower voltage levels make them more susceptible to any kind of burnout and much less flexible in terms of power sources as the quite robust AVR based boards.

Yes, the IDE could use a bit of a 'face-lift', there are a lot of little features that people seemed to have implemented themself which the Arduino folks don't think is worth to pick up and integrate in the mainstream release.
Kind of curious as to what the ways are supposed to be to program the Tre or even more so, the Zero, with its integrated debugger chip. I seriously hope they do not expect people to use Atmel Studio, with the behemoth of Visual Studio core underneath and the loss of cross-platform use of the current Arduino IDE...

Ralf
Title: Re: Does Arduino have a future?
Post by: Vaclav on Oct 30, 2014, 05:03 am
"Yes, the IDE could use a bit of a 'face-lift', there are a lot of little features that people seemed to have implemented themself which the Arduino folks don't think is worth to pick up and integrate in the mainstream release."

As long as same outfit who done the web site does the job, their future AKA having a job ( to fix things) is safe.
Not sure about the "product". 
So far my new Due is working as expected, but the compiler could use some help to speed things up.
Title: Re: Does Arduino have a future?
Post by: AWOL on Oct 30, 2014, 05:00 pm
So far my new Due is working as expected, but the compiler could use some help to speed things up.
Again, Vaclav, you're complaining in the wrong place.
Title: Re: Does Arduino have a future?
Post by: technix on Nov 10, 2014, 02:34 pm
I have 4 Arduino boards, Uno, Leonardo, Mega2560 and Due. I bought them when I was thinking about go back to microcontroller tinkering. However the community quickly bored me out as the project seems half dead, libraries I want to use seems unmaintained, and when a problem arose it is up to myself. I am a student of CS major so I am far from helpless when those issues came to me but after I lose some hair figuring that problem out I still got no support.

The boards themselves are really nice - I have even designed an RFID authenticator that would enter your password for you if you can identify yourself using RFID based on Arduino Leonardo. I think the problem here is the software is lagging behind.

Just a wild suggestion, is it possible to redesign the entire software stack, using newer versions of base libraries and reinvent the entire user-friendly interface stack?
Title: Re: Does Arduino have a future?
Post by: westfw on Nov 11, 2014, 02:53 am
Well, they DID redesign a bunch of the libraries to work on top of stream. (or below?  Inherit from?  idk...)
That was a pretty significant and useful change.

Quote
reinvent the entire user-friendly interface stack?
What did you have in mind?  The way things look to me, the Arduino stacks are equal or better (but more limited) than vendor-provided libraries like CMSIS, ST Peripheral Library, TI Tivaware, and etc.  (most of which seem to provide all of the bloated overhead of Arduino, without providing any simplification.  Sigh.)
Title: Re: Does Arduino have a future?
Post by: technix on Nov 11, 2014, 11:15 am
Well, they DID redesign a bunch of the libraries to work on top of stream. (or below?  Inherit from?  idk...)
That was a pretty significant and useful change.
What did you have in mind?  The way things look to me, the Arduino stacks are equal or better (but more limited) than vendor-provided libraries like CMSIS, ST Peripheral Library, TI Tivaware, and etc.  (most of which seem to provide all of the bloated overhead of Arduino, without providing any simplification.  Sigh.)

Here is what I have in mind:

Some things should be left behind.

This current IDE approach is helpful for beginners but is burdensome for anyone that went beyond that level, and the IDE itself is not really helpful enough. So this Processing-based IDE should be ditched and a new one should be created.

The existing libraries actually posed a learning curve for both newbies and experienced programmers as it deviate from the common programming environment so much, especially anything that derived from the Print class. My suggestion is POSIX-ify the library API.

Some things should be created. A new IDE should be created as the old one is no longer useable. I have checked that some LLVM fork have AVR support so a clang-backed IDE with way better language sensing can be built. Xcode is an example of an clang-backed IDE and Apple released all required features as part of libclang.

A new set of POSIX-styled C-based API should be created. This will allow existing programmers migrate from desktop environment with very few burdens, and allow newbies started from Arduino migrate to desktop more smoothly.

Also, libraries should be really libraries, i.e. in the form of an UNIX static library archive and linked using -l flag on GCC.
Title: Re: Does Arduino have a future?
Post by: westfw on Nov 11, 2014, 11:31 am
Well, I disagree pretty completely.  If you want to program a microcontroller with a real IDE and posix-like libraries, you already have plenty of choices.  Arduino is and should be different.

It WILL be interesting to see how debugging is handled on the Arduino Zero...
Title: Re: Does Arduino have a future?
Post by: technix on Nov 11, 2014, 09:16 pm
Well, I disagree pretty completely.  If you want to program a microcontroller with a real IDE and posix-like libraries, you already have plenty of choices.  Arduino is and should be different.

It WILL be interesting to see how debugging is handled on the Arduino Zero...

At least a real, quality IDE is a must-have. This will at least get the code sensing right, and maybe provide some tab-completion and coding hints. keywords.txt is not the way to go.

If you like the current set of libraries the new IDE can work with it, after some library precompiling as it will require libraries being precompiled into archives before linking with your project.
Title: Re: Does Arduino have a future?
Post by: bombasticbob on Nov 12, 2014, 09:02 pm
This current IDE approach is helpful for beginners but is burdensome for anyone that went beyond that level, and the IDE itself is not really helpful enough. So this Processing-based IDE should be ditched and a new one should be created.

The existing libraries actually posed a learning curve for both newbies and experienced programmers as it deviate from the common programming environment so much, especially anything that derived from the Print class. My suggestion is POSIX-ify the library API.

I disagree.  I'm an old-school programmer, do lots of Linux and BSD 'kernel level' coding, and don't see any issues with the Arduino libraries or IDE, other than the usual 'quirk' things that pretty much everything has these days.  You just learn to work with the quirks, like surfing or sailing, 'work with it' don't fight it, and you'll get a lot accomplished.  FYI I picked up on it pretty fast.  It's much easier to learn 'new' than lots of things.  It also works in college courses [I know someone who uses Arduino in his classes].

Some things should be created. A new IDE should be created as the old one is no longer useable.

Uh, no.  but you're welcome to use 'Makefile' based environments for your own project, or ATMel Studio, or anything else.  I find the IDE to be useful enough.


Also, libraries should be really libraries, i.e. in the form of an UNIX static library archive and linked using -l flag on GCC.

If you study how the libraries work, and WHY they are compiled from source for YOUR board/project by the IDE, you'll see why this isn't practical.

I'm currently working on an Arduino IDE extension to support ATXMega processors.  My project is here:

http://github.com/XMegaForArduino

In short, it is possible to EXTEND the existing IDE by creating your own 'core' and 'variant' files for your CPU class, and your board.  That's something that was left out in your desire to re-write.  Why not just BUILD on what's been done instead?  that was the point of my project, to simply let you copy a few files into the directory tree, make some minor changes to things like 'boards.txt', and possibly patch the gcc compiler and avrdude to support your stuff, and now you can use Arduino's IDE to build for Uno or "your board", as needed.

OK making THIS part EASIER would be nice.  "Add new board type" for example.  Patching things like gcc and avrdude are easier on non-windows OSs, so a way to upgrade JUST the compiler would be nice, too [without having to do what I'm currently doing, create my own build environment under cygwin for the compilers and tools and patch them accordingly myself so they'll build/run].  But that would be UPGRADING, not RE-DOING.  Wouldn't that be better?

Arduino is an AWESOME prototyping tool for testing electronic designs.  At some point after you've built something with an Uno you might say "product-ize it" and then you design your board with your choice of CPU.  Sometimes this may need an IDE update (like if you chose to use an ATXMega32E5 because it's twice as fast) but the fact is that YOU! CAN! DO! IT! with the existing IDE, if you want to.

So why break it?  Why re-do it?  Too much work.  I'd rather build cool toys with an Uno.
Title: Re: Does Arduino have a future?
Post by: westfw on Nov 13, 2014, 02:55 am
Quote
At least a real, quality IDE is a must-have.
Too bad they don't seem to exist.  I haven't seen an IDE yet that doesn't have a large contingent of people complaining how awful it is.  The Arduino IDE at least succeeds at its goal of being "simple"...
Title: Re: Does Arduino have a future?
Post by: Riva on Nov 13, 2014, 12:18 pm
Too bad they don't seem to exist.  I haven't seen an IDE yet that doesn't have a large contingent of people complaining how awful it is.  The Arduino IDE at least succeeds at its goal of being "simple"...
I find a combination of Notepad++ (NPP) with the Arduino IDE works well. I have added most of the Arduino keywords to NPP so it highlights syntax and also added a run command to launch the IDE with link to the current saved code in NPP. The main PITA is the IDE insistence of putting sketch inside a same named folder as it make creating a new sketch that little more cumbersome. I was hoping to dispense with the IDE altogether by using Arduino Builder (http://arduinodev.com/arduino-uploader/) but it refuses to work on my main PC.
Title: Re: Does Arduino have a future?
Post by: naevtamarkus on Aug 24, 2015, 09:28 am
I wonder... why is nobody talking about power consumption?

Many applications need batteries, and the fact that a Pro Mini takes 7mA (and less than 1mA when sleeping) is a deal-breaker, specially compared to a RaspberryPi, that takes 100 times more power.

Everyone (including me!) obviously want more MHz, more SRAM and more EEPROM, but one needs to understand what the costs are, and I am not just talking about money.
Title: Re: Does Arduino have a future?
Post by: liuzengqiang on Aug 26, 2015, 08:30 am
I wonder... why is nobody talking about power consumption?

Many applications need batteries, and the fact that a Pro Mini takes 7mA (and less than 1mA when sleeping) is a deal-breaker, specially compared to a RaspberryPi, that takes 100 times more power.

Everyone (including me!) obviously want more MHz, more SRAM and more EEPROM, but one needs to understand what the costs are, and I am not just talking about money.
Hey, we have a good recommendation here. Power! Even better, make a low-power arduino for battery operation on the micro amps. That's one path many intermediate arduino users will take, at some point. The UNO board is the greatest arduino board every made. Keep it! Make another one with low power.
Title: Re: Does Arduino have a future?
Post by: liuzengqiang on Aug 26, 2015, 08:32 am
I find a combination of Notepad++ (NPP) with the Arduino IDE works well. I have added most of the Arduino keywords to NPP so it highlights syntax and also added a run command to launch the IDE with link to the current saved code in NPP. The main PITA is the IDE insistence of putting sketch inside a same named folder as it make creating a new sketch that little more cumbersome. I was hoping to dispense with the IDE altogether by using Arduino Builder (http://arduinodev.com/arduino-uploader/) but it refuses to work on my main PC.
I use NPP to tweak my libraries while using arduino IDE to compile sample code running these libraries. Since they rolled out 1.6.x, I've thought about updating my libraries :D lots to be done.
Title: Re: Does Arduino have a future?
Post by: liuzengqiang on Aug 26, 2015, 08:46 am
Too bad they don't seem to exist.  I haven't seen an IDE yet that doesn't have a large contingent of people complaining how awful it is.  The Arduino IDE at least succeeds at its goal of being "simple"...

Arduino IDE is alright. It has problems. Yes. But it's simple of course. At least if you look at it, it won't scare you away with its workspaces, project management, resources or other mombo-jumbo a "proper IDE" has. Not counting Processing IDE, last time I saw a simple (and elegant) IDE was turbo C. I don't know if there are many that are old enough to have used it.

The two least favorite things I would see done to arduino:
1) A team of electrical engineers redesign the arduino boards purely based on costs/specs and their own vision of how electronics should be designed, dismissing all the facts that arduino is a learning tool for those mostly non-ECE folks. Most beginners will be horrified (where do I stick a jumper?).
2) A team of software engineers redesign the arduino software/IDE so that it looks and feels like what they were taught in college and then use at work, again dismissing all facts that arduino is a learning tool for those mostly non-CS folks. Most beginners will be intimidated to begin (where do I type?).
Title: Re: Does Arduino have a future?
Post by: pito on Sep 19, 2015, 08:08 pm
The customers will decide about Arduino future..
What the Arduino users actually want?
Simplicity? Speed? Low power? Low cost? Rtos? Unix? Linux? Cosa?
When reading this forum 95% is interested in UNO with 328p chip and standard IDE.

Title: Re: Does Arduino have a future?
Post by: liuzengqiang on Sep 19, 2015, 11:41 pm
As of right now, you can't even get an arduino that is NOT from dog crap arduno.org. The future can wait. Just get this thing handled. I'll do some donation on the IDE download page.

Yes, UNO with standard IDE is best. It's for beginners, which is plenty. Make one that is entirely surface mount, like sparkfun red board, so our mac-using friends won't short circuit them on their computers.

You're right, the customers should be allowed to speak, or more precisely, be heard. An extensive survey is way overdue.
Title: Re: Does Arduino have a future?
Post by: 68tjs on Sep 20, 2015, 08:41 pm
Quote
that is NOT from dog crap arduno.org
Note to moderators:
Even if that person does not like Arduino Italy, it is his choice that is as respectable as the opposite choice, insults are prohibited on the forum.

We should not forget that if Arduino could exist is also because in 2005 Martino risked his own money in board production while Banzi does not risked 1 cent.

Without Banzy there would have been no Arduino and also without Martino there would have been no Arduino.

It is also because Barragan had publish Wiring IDE in 2004, one year before.

So for us, boards users, these three people Barragan, Banzy and Martino deserves equal respect and must not be insulted.

The current conflict is a different problem and does not justify the insults.
Title: Re: Does Arduino have a future?
Post by: liuzengqiang on Sep 21, 2015, 06:47 pm
Note to moderators:
Even if that person does not like Arduino Italy, it is his choice that is as respectable as the opposite choice, insults are prohibited on the forum.

We should not forget that if Arduino could exist is also because in 2005 Martino risked his own money in board production while Banzi does not risked 1 cent.

Without Banzy there would have been no Arduino and also without Martino there would have been no Arduino.

It is also because Barragan had publish Wiring IDE in 2004, one year before.

So for us, boards users, these three people Barragan, Banzy and Martino deserves equal respect and must not be insulted.

The current conflict is a different problem and does not justify the insults.
Right, right, dog crap hunter AG. Finger slipped. I don't care about these three people you mentioned enough to insult. You can stop your litigation now. Tell us how come the arduino IDE is downloaded way more times than official boards are sold. I don't care who paid for first production. Should we pay King Arduino for "we wouldn't have got Arduino without you"? Tell me next time about how much design, libraries, IDE, community building these three folks did. Don't need to lecture me on how much arduino takes from wiring. If it itself is as a great project as arduino is, we'd be hearing about them constantly. Have you forgotten about Processing? They are both open source by the way. Equal respect? Yes, of course, for EQUAL contribution. Production is just the necessary means to get ideas into a tangible form (or not). To disappoint your more, there are too many "fakes" that are just as good as the official. Too many people can product decent quality boards, there is no secrets the production guys hold, only literally crap. Over a year ago they have switched away from decent quality 1117 regulators and started using the one marked with backward C and two parallel bars. It is a nightmare. You've been here a while. Why don't you search about it?

In case others are still reading:

Thermal breakdown for 12V input on MEGA and insufficient power for a moderate xbee for the xbee shield. Cost me lots of time to find out what was restarting my loggers. Now that due to these folks, I can't even get an arduino LLC board anymore. I'm going to get some fakes. At least it's got the right VID and 1117 regulators LOL
Title: Re: Does Arduino have a future?
Post by: mactsk on Sep 28, 2015, 02:40 pm
For me Arduino has a great future mainly in the educational/simple projects market, and by the way the uno smd is a non sense and goes against logic, as you know you can only upload a "small" number of sketches on the 328, maybe some hundreds, and loosing the ability to replace your 328 in case of a pin damage/too many uploads means having to buy a whole board instead of a cheap component.

As you grow you surely will want to use a more powerful board, now i regularly use some mega clones,(sorry but the original mega is way too expensive) i use it mostly for the added memory and sketch size, not for the pins, so a more roomy 328 from Atmel would be a great thing for the platform.

But not all projects require many pins and power, another really great point of the uno is the ability to get off the 328 and put it on a perfboard, i have done many things in that way for really 2-3€ in hardware, also in 8mhz mode, with battery, implementing sleep, so really low power things.
And i really would like to see official support for stand alone 1mhz 328, that would be fantastic!

I also used some YUN mainly because the uno+wifi was the same price! but i hardly use it as it can be used.

If you are beginning with micro (and many kids/adults are entering this world every year) controllers the 328/2560 (and don't forget the Attiny!) are the only thing you need in your first 2-4 years as a maker (unless you are very serious at that and it gets as your job)
and beyond that many of your projects only really need that 328
Title: Re: Does Arduino have a future?
Post by: liuzengqiang on Sep 29, 2015, 05:03 am
I recall 10000 Flash rewrites, not hundreds. Main issue against SMC UNO is you can't replace a dead chip, without additional tools like hot air rework station.
If you need more memory, check out crossroads bobuino. It uses 1284P, 16KB SRAM, 128KB FLASH.
Title: Re: Does Arduino have a future?
Post by: ArthurD on Oct 01, 2015, 01:13 am
Quote
Re: Does Arduino have a future?
maybe one wishes to scan through THIS discussion...
http://forum.arduino.cc/index.php?topic=350250.msg2418285#msg2418285 (http://forum.arduino.cc/index.php?topic=350250.msg2418285#msg2418285)
Title: Re: Does Arduino have a future?
Post by: westfw on Oct 01, 2015, 02:03 am

Quote
most of all driver libs for either Arduino 3rd party hardware is written and provided in an half-hearted, bungling, ignorant, and irresponsible attitude, which finally frustrates all users and debases the value of Arduino as a hobby user microprocessor platform as such.
unfortunately, that's a really mild statement compared to what I hear from the pros about the "professional" libraries like "ASF", "TivaWare", "STM Cube", and etc.  :-( (and those rarely include the sort of high-level functions similar to the "display" being discussed in that other thread.)

(Interestingly, there are "for-money" compiler packages that include high-level libraries, and I hardly ever hear anything either good or bad about them.  Perhaps their users stay away from the "amateur" groups.   Just pay you $10k and PRODUCE.)

Title: Re: Does Arduino have a future?
Post by: liuzengqiang on Oct 01, 2015, 04:58 am
maybe one wishes to scan through THIS discussion...
http://forum.arduino.cc/index.php?topic=350250.msg2418285#msg2418285 (http://forum.arduino.cc/index.php?topic=350250.msg2418285#msg2418285)
Scanned through.
A frustrated noob, a couple of people flaming. Anything new?
I've used Arduino for years. I have some frustration but I handle it positively, using each problem as opportunity to learn the inner works of arduino. Mind you, you are given free and open source code and designs, made possible by a very small group of developers. How much have you helped them? How much are you asking for free? If it was you, could you do much better? As for me, I've thought about writing a book on the 'secretes ' of arduino to explain library, issues and fixes to everyone. I have  only got a few pages. It's not easy. I'll probably not make any money to justify my time but at least I'm not sitting on my butt when I can help instead.

Title: Re: Does Arduino have a future?
Post by: ArthurD on Oct 01, 2015, 08:37 am
maybe the reason why it's nothing new is just because Arduino is mostly for noobs and people are frustrated about the unsatisfactory software support by software libs - both by the 3rd party companies and by Arduino itself. So the "not new" reaction is simply the result of the current deficiencies, what, in return,  debases the value and the acceptance of Arduino as a concept and a brand.
Better software driver support by the Arduino developers are urgently needed!
And, maybe, a certificate for 3rd party companies to be allowed to use the name "Arduino" on their products only if they have been certified by the Arduino company (i.e. perhaps Arduino.cc, if not also Arduino.org).
Title: Re: Does Arduino have a future?
Post by: westfw on Oct 01, 2015, 09:11 am
I guess that one problem is that normally, in professional software development, an unsupported and somewhat buggy piece of code that does almost what you want it to is actually extremely valuable.  In arduino-land, perhaps less so, since the would-be users have less chance of fixing/modifying it to their desired level of functionality.   (it is perhaps the "big lie" of the "open source movement": "You can look at the code to make sure it's correct and does what you want."  Most users can't. (remember that with most proprietary, high-cost, big-budget software, the actual developers are not quite capable of "looking at the code to make sure that it is correct and does what they want."  Heh.)
Title: Re: Does Arduino have a future?
Post by: ArthurD on Oct 01, 2015, 09:26 am
so what would you suggest?

keep it as it is, accepting frustrated users because of non- or malfunctional hardware, not able to finish their project (and already perhaps having invested much time and much money for that purpose)

-

or... what?
Title: Re: Does Arduino have a future?
Post by: westfw on Oct 01, 2015, 11:47 am
Quote
or... what?
Well, you know, if you bought your hardware from Arduino.cc, Arduino.org, Sparkfun, Adafruit, or even Seeed, you'd have a lot more recourse and hope of SW improvement than this whole "I bought a random piece of HW with no real documentation from a random China/eBay/AliExpress vendor, and I'm very frustrated that the Adafruit libraries don't seem to work with it" mentality.  Yes, that would mean that the hardware would be more expensive.  Yes, that would mean fewer choices.  Welcome to the real world.

The expectation that you can purchase any hardware from anywhere and find free software that will make it work is fundamentally flawed.

The expectation that some college kid who wrote a driver for some college class will "support" that driver for the next 10 years is flawed (as is the expectation that 4-y old drivers will still work with new hardware and IDE.)

Good bug reports would help too.  "I got an error something like ... and a lot more" is not helpful.  There are WAY too many of these in these forums.   "this SW is crappy.  It doesn't work", and little to no followup.  Oh well: if you won't spend money, and you won't spend time, and you won't communicate, then you can't expect much improvement.


Title: Re: Does Arduino have a future?
Post by: liuzengqiang on Oct 01, 2015, 07:33 pm
As I said, arduino llc is a very small group of developers, and they are trying to survive in this pond where other groups are taking large shares of the market and profit over their contributions, which you call imperfect. They are trying their best to develop new hardware so they don't lose out in the near future. Yes, they should get their existing libraries better, but no they are not doing it right now. They are also fighting legal battle too, in case you didn't know. All at the same time they try to spread the word or arduino to more places.

If you have a problem with the current state of matter of arduino, find something you can do to help (like reporting specific bugs, informing others how to fight the bugs etc.) or just leave it and move on.
Title: Re: Does Arduino have a future?
Post by: ArthurD on Oct 09, 2015, 10:35 am
IMO the only way would be:
make the brand and/or trade mark  "Arduino"  copyright-protected for hardware and software.
just 100% original Arduino-manufactured boards and hardware extensions, but excellent working libs and compatibility for ALL (!) boards (3.3 + 5V, AVR+ARM)
licence Arduino to 3rd party companies only if the company and the related item have been certified by the Arduino company.
2 years of guarantee /warranty for all products showing the Arduino trade mark on hardware and software drivers + IDE-update-safe, or 100% money refund.
Title: Re: Does Arduino have a future?
Post by: lmkovi on Nov 05, 2015, 08:35 pm
A few ideas for simple enhancements to the IDE that might play catch-up with what's out there these days. Most are low hanging fruits, to the exception of the debugger that is more involved.


https://github.com/arduino/Arduino/issues/4084
Title: Re: Does Arduino have a future?
Post by: technix on Nov 11, 2015, 05:48 pm
If we are willing to switch compilers, LLVM for AVR (https://github.com/avr-llvm/llvm) is taking shape and it is a direct replacement for avr-gcc. And given the modular nature of LLVM and clang the compiler frontend is available as a library, and AST of the code is available. So a lot of proposed features like proper code sensing can be done using clang. Clang also have really nice debug messages and a static analyser that can help a lot of beginners to catch bugs. If you have a Mac you can download and try write some C++ with Xcode, as that is a full-fledge IDE that is built around clang.

LLVM for AVR still does not produce correct object code but since all we need here is its C++ frontend and AST there should be no problem.
Title: Re: Does Arduino have a future?
Post by: kowalski on Nov 11, 2015, 10:10 pm
IMO the only way would be:
make the brand and/or trade mark  "Arduino"  copyright-protected for hardware and software.
just 100% original Arduino-manufactured boards and hardware extensions, but excellent working libs and compatibility for ALL (!) boards (3.3 + 5V, AVR+ARM)
licence Arduino to 3rd party companies only if the company and the related item have been certified by the Arduino company.
2 years of guarantee /warranty for all products showing the Arduino trade mark on hardware and software drivers + IDE-update-safe, or 100% money refund.
@ArthurD
Now why did/does this not happen?

I believe it has to do with how the "product" has been developed. The software will never be industry strength (high quality) due to how it is handled by the "company". It is a lot of modified application notes and student projects.

The sharing on for instance this forum is maybe the bright side of the story.

Cheers!
Title: Re: Does Arduino have a future?
Post by: liuzengqiang on Nov 12, 2015, 05:59 am
Industrial strength: these project-cranking students now graduated into entry jobs and are paid to do the similar quality of work?! If it is from industry, I expect some free and paid support. The strength is only good if they keep working on it. Also there is little chance to inspect under the hood or modify it. Arduino does have good support from the forum and is open source. People can learn from it while using it in productive activities. If arduino is not good for you, you're probably using arduino outside its intended usage.
Title: Re: Does Arduino have a future?
Post by: amundsen on Nov 14, 2015, 05:15 pm
I begun with a Uno board then quickly went to Pro Mini and Micro boards because of the size demanded by my projects.

However, I then jumped to Teensy because of the better resolution of ADC (12 bits instead of 10) while keeping a small size *and* the compatibility with the IDE.

Currently I don't understand why there is such a craze about boards running an OS rather than a simple bootloader. IMHO it only makes things more complicated when you only want to connect sensors, pre-crunch the data and transmit them to a computer. And yes Raspberry Pi and Beaglebone Black are there for the people who want such boards. I'd be more interested to have Arduino boards with dedicated floating-point units, a big lack currently. Also, more powerful electronics (analog amplifiers) would be nice. I can see nice boards out there (TI Sitara, ST Nucleo, mikroelektronika stuff...) but the IDE's ease of use and the size of the community really pulls me back to Arduino-branded boards or other ones directly compatible with the IDE.

Just my two cents.
Title: Re: Does Arduino have a future?
Post by: technix on Nov 18, 2015, 01:11 pm
I begun with a Uno board then quickly went to Pro Mini and Micro boards because of the size demanded by my projects.

However, I then jumped to Teensy because of the better resolution of ADC (12 bits instead of 10) while keeping a small size *and* the compatibility with the IDE.

Currently I don't understand why there is such a craze about boards running an OS rather than a simple bootloader. IMHO it only makes things more complicated when you only want to connect sensors, pre-crunch the data and transmit them to a computer. And yes Raspberry Pi and Beaglebone Black are there for the people who want such boards. I'd be more interested to have Arduino boards with dedicated floating-point units, a big lack currently. Also, more powerful electronics (analog amplifiers) would be nice. I can see nice boards out there (TI Sitara, ST Nucleo, mikroelektronika stuff...) but the IDE's ease of use and the size of the community really pulls me back to Arduino-branded boards or other ones directly compatible with the IDE.

Just my two cents.
The only MPU that have an FPU so far as I know is ARM Cortex-M4F, which can be pretty expensive.

If you want a better analog frontend, maybe you can check out the MCP3911, a pretty fully functional all-in-one ADC and PGA, and couple it with ADR03B voltage reference.
Title: Re: Does Arduino have a future?
Post by: kowalski on Nov 19, 2015, 04:35 pm
Industrial strength: these project-cranking students now graduated into entry jobs and are paid to do the similar quality of work?!
There is lots to be said about what "Industry strength C++" is all about. This is not something you can learn from the Arduino source code or libraries. Recommended reading: Industrial Strength C++: Rules and Recommendations (http://www.amazon.com/Industrial-Strength-Recommendations-Innovative-Technology/dp/0131209655)

I think we need to take some code examples from the Arduino core or libraries to get to the bottom of this. The Arduino core lacks a software architecture (and architect). There is no style guide or even device driver programmers interface. It is barely OOP and a mixed up usage of C++ (software metrics). There is no core support classes for scaling to medium size projects such as support for concurrency, events, etc.

Cheers!

PS: Please compare Cosa (https://github.com/mikaelpatel/Cosa) and Arduino (https://github.com/arduino/Arduino) core. The difference is obvious. DS.
Title: Re: Does Arduino have a future?
Post by: pjrc on Nov 26, 2015, 12:47 am
I'd be more interested to have Arduino boards with dedicated floating-point units, a big lack currently.
I can tell you a more powerful Teensy is coming in early 2016, with 180 MHz CPU that includes the FPU.  It'll retail for under $30.
Title: Re: Does Arduino have a future?
Post by: bricoleau on Nov 26, 2015, 03:28 pm
And what about THIS (https://www.raspberrypi.org/blog/raspberry-pi-zero) ?
Title: Re: Does Arduino have a future?
Post by: liuzengqiang on Nov 27, 2015, 02:43 am
And what about THIS (https://www.raspberrypi.org/blog/raspberry-pi-zero) ?
:smiley-cry:
Crazy! I wanna cry. Thanks for bearing this great news!
Title: Re: Does Arduino have a future?
Post by: dmjlambert on Nov 27, 2015, 04:50 am
That's interesting, I'll have to make a trip over to Micro Center and get some of those to play with.  I probably would have named it the "Pi Five."
Title: Re: Does Arduino have a future?
Post by: liuzengqiang on Nov 27, 2015, 05:10 am
Or raspberry pi model S. S looks like a 5.
Title: Re: Does Arduino have a future?
Post by: mbanzi on Dec 21, 2015, 08:15 pm
I believe it has to do with how the "product" has been developed. The software will never be industry strength (high quality) due to how it is handled by the "company". It is a lot of modified application notes and student projects.

Dear kowalski
Saying that arduino is a bunch of modified application notes etc is the usual boring rhetoric.. It's no longer like that.

Our code works in production in thousands of real projects used by real companies.

A lot of "professional" code can be declared so simply because it is closed source so nobody knows what the hell is in there but there is a LOT of crap believe me.

BTW if you see any low quality code in Arduino please lend to the community your excellent skills and submit a pull request :)

m





Title: Re: Does Arduino have a future?
Post by: kowalski on Dec 22, 2015, 12:26 am
@Massimo Banzi

Quote
if you see any low quality code in Arduino please lend to the community your excellent skills
I approach contributing to Arduino in a very different way. For little over three years I have developed an object-oriented framework, Cosa (https://github.com/mikaelpatel/Cosa), that replaces the Arduino core. I have used my experience from teaching object-oriented design and operating systems, and many years of large scale embedded systems development to provide examples on how to get to the next level.

Cosa is a framework where the classes are designed to work together and with advanced variant handling. There are interfaces for both libraries and device driver developers. It is high performance with X5-X10 compared to the basic Arduino/Wiring functions. And provides many of the mechanisms that are missing in the Arduino core.

The Arduino IDE and core are very much entry level and very good at that. There is a need for support for larger projects, development processes and more advanced software concepts - the next level. It is not possible to retro fit a better architecture (unfortunately).

Please feel free to contribute to Cosa :)

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!
Title: Re: Does Arduino have a future?
Post by: ODwyerPW on Oct 04, 2016, 07:57 pm
Very pleased to see Arduino SRL (.org) and Arduino LLC (.cc) starting to make amends.

Website, Forum, Product Catalogs, GitHub repos and IDE merges will be good.

Will be interesting to see how they handle board manufacturing and new partner alliances (STM).
Title: Re: Does Arduino have a future?
Post by: liuzengqiang on Oct 05, 2016, 03:11 am
I'm glad they are now working together. I hope the arduino srl will not use any low-quality regulator that goes into thermal shutdown when 12V is connected for more than a few minutes. Almost ruined a whole project. A dozen devices behaved strangely.
Title: Re: Does Arduino have a future?
Post by: technix on Oct 19, 2016, 07:57 pm
I'm glad they are now working together. I hope the arduino srl will not use any low-quality regulator that goes into thermal shutdown when 12V is connected for more than a few minutes. Almost ruined a whole project. A dozen devices behaved strangely.
We might as well stop using linear regulator entirely. Switch-mode controllers with built-in switches and synchronous rectifier are fairly cheap now, and can increase both board efficiency and maximum current available at the same time.

I have cooked up a design that is largely identical to Uno but had three changes, one of them being replacing both AMS1117-5.0 and LP2980-3.3 linear regulators with TPS562200. That chip comes in the same SOT-23-5 package as LP2980-3.3, but it can push out 2A maximum, use small magnetics at the size of 5650 or smaller, and have a minimum power efficiency of 75% at zero load. If you are interested I can publish it under 3-clause BSD license. The same power delivery system is also used on my Uno-compatible STM32F103CB/STM32L152CC development board.

On my STM32F103CB board, with the CPU running idle at 72MHz, one power LED and a blinking indicator LED on, and a significant portion of onboard peripherals enabled, the board draws no more than 50mA when powered by only USB. And when powered by +12V barrel jack no component on the board get warm. So if we move the board to switch-mode converters we can cut a big chunk out of the energy consumption, and eliminate warm components almost entirely.
Title: Re: Does Arduino have a future?
Post by: ODwyerPW on Oct 26, 2016, 09:18 pm
ARM (a.k.a Sofbank) announced new Cortex-M family members based on a 32-bit implementation of the ARMv8-M architecture.

Cortex-M23 which inhabits the M0, M+ space with good efficiency improvements

Cortex-M33 which seems a good upgrade to both M3 and M4 processors.

No details on clock speeds.

Atmel (a.k.a. MicroChips) and STMElectronics have both signed on as partners for the processors.
It will be interesting to see if Atmel releases MicroControllers suitable for new Arduinos. (e.g. maybe a SAMD23, SAM33X or SAM4X variant). With Arduino.org using a Cortex-M4 based STM32F469 microcontroller from STMElectronics, who knows which direction the folks will go for future boards. (we've had some toe dipping with Intel and TI by the Arduino folks... Now we have STM)

Announcements hinted at high performance variants to come (think Cortex-M73 or whatever they decide to name it) that will reside in the current Cortex-M7 space.












Title: Re: Does Arduino have a future?
Post by: westfw on Oct 27, 2016, 07:40 am
Arduino.org was at the "ARM TechCon" tradeshow...  It was sort-of amusing to see "a parent" of Arduino present for the first time at a show where multiple other vendors have been showing "Arduino form-factor" boards for years...
Title: Re: Does Arduino have a future?
Post by: westfw on Oct 27, 2016, 08:41 am
ARM's announcement:  https://community.arm.com/groups/processors/blog/2016/10/25/cortex-m23-and-cortex-m33-security-foundation-for-billions-of-devices (https://community.arm.com/groups/processors/blog/2016/10/25/cortex-m23-and-cortex-m33-security-foundation-for-billions-of-devices)
They seem to be selling it primarily from an "enhanced security" point of view.
I guess it won't be clear how it stands in the power-use range until there are actual implementations (it's interesting that there are already "respected" vendors offering CM4 chips for their "low power" range, rather than going to M0/M0+.)
It'll be nice to have "divide" and some of the other instructions back...

Title: Re: Does Arduino have a future?
Post by: ODwyerPW on Jan 31, 2017, 06:01 am
I saw another indication of the cooperation between the two Arduino entities today. I went to arduino.org to see if I could purchase the Star Otto yet.  When I select purchase and went to the Arduino store, I saw that I was now in arduino.cc land.. their store. Interesting.

Title: Re: Does Arduino have a future?
Post by: ODwyerPW on Aug 29, 2017, 12:07 am
Resurrecting this thread in light of the Arduino AG acquisition that was finalized today. Get to work guys.

Response to this Blog announcement.

https://blog.arduino.cc/2017/07/28/a-new-era-for-arduino-begins-today/
Title: Re: Does Arduino have a future?
Post by: PORTB on Oct 09, 2017, 10:08 am
I feel that AVR is falling behind ARM...
And now that the esp has come around it seems even further behind
Title: Re: Does Arduino have a future?
Post by: westfw on Oct 09, 2017, 10:33 am
Quote
AVR is falling behind ARM.
Well, that's a certainty.  AVR is essentially  a "legacy" architecture, while ARM is still evolving.  In theory, it doesn't matter as long as the AVR is "enough" for a particular application.
I guess the big "danger" is that "CircuitPython" will get fast enough and cheap enough to implement the things people want to do, while being much "friendlier" than Arduino.  So far, I haven't decided whether I'm UN-impressed by Python on a 256k 48MHz ARM with an extra 2Mb flash being "almost enough" for people to use, or stunned that those boards are the same price as the 32k AVR Arduinos.
(It wasn't that long ago that there were a bunch of Embedded Java computers that were going to take over the areas where Arduinos and WeMos board now prevail.  You haven't hear much recently about SunSpots, Jini, or Javelin Stamps, have you?)
Title: Re: Does Arduino have a future?
Post by: bobcousins on Nov 04, 2017, 10:36 am
Since the OP was written in 2014, and worried that Tre would replace AVR Arduini, the Tre has disappeared and AVR Arduini continue, despite several attempts to wreck the Arduino company.

CircuitPythonâ„¢ is a bit of a joke I think, MicroPython already seems to be killed with multiple incompatible forks.

Far from not having a future, I am wondering what it would take to kill AVR Arduino! Even if Microchip dropped the ATMega (which is very unlikely), there are clone AVR devices. If Arduino AG folded, there are probably enough interested parties who would pick up development of the IDE etc.

It looks like the Arduino Uno will literally be with us forever now.
Title: Re: Does Arduino have a future?
Post by: speedylearner on Jan 07, 2018, 12:32 pm
Arduino may have many faults, but it is very versatile. The Arduino TRE will always be an arduino board, with all Arduino's pros and cons, and with the Arduino IDE. Arduino should update many things in the boards, but given that it was born to teach, it is very good.
This is what I think.
Title: Re: Does Arduino have a future?
Post by: DangerouslyExplosive on Jan 16, 2018, 09:51 pm
I hate to diverge any from this wonderful conversation... And yet, here I am wondering, what happened to

boards like the Esplora and Arduino Robot? Those were great, and with some improvement could be

fantastic. Built-in sensors and controls allow more flexibility in space management, and the potential uses

are far beyond those of a standard starter kit. I would love to see more boards like those from Arduino.


The other thing I wonder about is the standard price point. Now that Arduino is up and a few years running,

why are the boards still so darn expensive? There are clones of the Uno rolling out of China for less than

half the price of authentic ones, with no loss to quality or service whatsoever. I think that Arduino may have

to lower the cost of their products if they want to continue to be successful.


Lastly, I kind of want to see a version of a Uno or a Mega with more memory and the ability to run

multiple functions simultaneously, but without any super-fancy hard to learn code. Maybe a new library, but

nothing like a Raspberry Pi or ARM cpus... just good ol' Arduino. That sounds like a good future to me.


- D.E.
Title: Re: Does Arduino have a future?
Post by: robtillaart on Jan 17, 2018, 09:54 am
Quote
There are clones of the Uno rolling out of China for less than half the price of authentic ones, with no loss to quality or service whatsoever.
Pleas note that China inc. does not pay for the forum and other costs the Arduino team make.
Title: Re: Does Arduino have a future?
Post by: westfw on Jan 17, 2018, 10:55 am
Quote
China inc. does not pay for the forum and other costs the Arduino team make.
Forum and other costs like: binary IDE repositories, github source repositories, IDE development, Core development, library development, website and documentation, advertising, evangelism, sales (in the sense of working to get Digikey to carry Arduino boards)...
Title: Re: Does Arduino have a future?
Post by: liuzengqiang on Jan 21, 2018, 10:02 pm
Reducing UNO price to $20 would be nice. I came to know Arduino UNO as a $30 board and almost no alternatives elsewhere. That has changed a lot. The technology involved in making the board is well-established and the board can be cheaply made.

Just noticed that the official price is $22 now. Not bad.

I wonder if Arduino should change business model a bit. I know the open-source business model is very new and appealing. But it is also prone to issues such as copycats and dumping. What if Arduino LLC decides to lower board price to $10? With the official appeal, they can get rid of lots of competitions that are no more than a fab house with a couple of ebay accounts. Arduino LLC can still make a little bit of money but they will need to get the rest of the money by annual donation campaigns like wiki or others. I'd be willing to pay my contribution if I know that board quality is good and cost is low, even if I'm not buying their boards every year.

Giving a donation and trying to find the cheapest board to buy are two totally different things that I believe many people can do both.
Title: Re: Does Arduino have a future?
Post by: AffordableTechnology on Feb 01, 2018, 06:38 pm

While there are several more powerful products like BeagleBone an Pi etc, the beauty and success of Arduino IS its simplicity.  If I need a bit more memory or speed for a particular task, I use an ESP-8266.  Just those two choices cater for 99% of my IOT projects.

For more complex projects, e.g. a very comprehensive weather station, I've found multiple Pro-Mini / ESP nodes have often been a better solution, that's also easier to maintain.  For the 1% that demand more grunt etc a CubieTruck or Pi has been more than enough.  Beyond that I just use a small industrial PC with Linux, Android or Windows.

For me, the real magic of Ardunio is its totally open source (hardware and software).  I prototype with standard Arduino hardware and when its time to produce a quantity (10+), its so easy find an existing (public domain) Eagle file that's closest to my needs, add on any extra logic etc, and get some boards made.  All the components are readily available, it a piece of cake!

I wouldn't even consider using some of the so called 'better' boards for a more demanding project, the few people I know who went down that road regretted it due to the lack of information, code examples, and special components etc, made it a nightmare. A small Linux / Windows single board computer is quicker and more reliable etc.

So, yes, I see a long future ahead for Arduino, its simplicity making it perfect for the explosion of IOT devices.

Just my 2 cents worth on the topic.

Cheers!

Paul
 
Title: Re: Does Arduino have a future?
Post by: acecase on Feb 05, 2018, 05:41 am
I don't love the sound of that either. I wouldn't like to see Arduino move in to the micro-pc space if it means leaving the mcu space behind. I have Raspberri Pis and Orange Pi Zeros and they are great where they belong, but I would much rather see Arduino move to better MCUs and stay where they have done so well. I don't think that sticking with the 8bit chips is a good idea, but I would love to see some good quality boards build around A LOT of new chips. They're packing everything in to some of these new MCUs. I'm waiting for them to start integrating e-paper on the dye or some such.
Title: Re: Does Arduino have a future?
Post by: ODwyerPW on May 15, 2018, 08:46 am
I've been following the MKR series for a bit. 32bit ARM Cortex-M0+ @ 48Mhz core , memory capacity of the Mega, 
Although not a fan of all of the varieties (lora, sigfox,), the original MKR Zero including a microSD was good, the MKR1000 had Wifi for allot less than the YUN. Really liking the MKR 1400GSM & MKR 1500 NB (need to learn more about connecting with this) and the MKR 1010 WIFI (a reboot of the MKR1000). Having the built-in Li-Po charging/swithching circuits is really good.

Anyway, this MKR format seems the way to go..... much better than the old beardboard unfriendly UNO/MEGA R3 layouts that every single Arduino board before used. This MKR format is the future for Arduino.

In the future, we may see a better equipped/supported successor to DUO/MEGA that might use a Cortex-M33 or Cortex-M7 core in a stretched MKR format to give us access to many more pins, multiple channels of UART, SPI, I2C, I2S, MIPI DSI & Touch interfaces, microSD, and a BLE, Wifi, LTE NB comm interface. That would be cool stuff to see in an elongated MKR format.
Title: Re: Does Arduino have a future?
Post by: george_h on May 19, 2018, 08:30 am
I've been used Arduino for a while and have a number of older boards, Leonardo ETH and GSM v2 for example.

I have noticed a worrying trend both in the website information (arduino.cc, the forum) and also the IDE - the "purging" of "retired" products, information, data, guides and (working) IDE examples for them.

They fact Arduino no longer sell them does not make them "retired" to the many that own, and continue to use them. Too many PC hardware manufacturers adopt this closed , sales orientated mind set where once a product is "retired" is ceases to exist, and for some have ever existed. All their interested in if pushing the latest product.

So is Arduino as an organisation losing it's heart and going purely for shifting new product and not caring about the stuff it has sold in the past?

Hopefully not..... If it does, it will be the end of it....

With PC hardware I never buy from manufacturers that have that stupid attitude, personally or for work (there are some I can still download drivers for that are over 15 years old, others if it is discontinued it is erased from history). I still maintain equipment at work which relies on PLC hardware 25+ years old and still doing its job.
Title: Re: Does Arduino have a future?
Post by: westfw on May 19, 2018, 10:11 am
Quote
the "purging" of "retired" products, information, data, guides and (working) IDE examples for them.
You can still download the old IDEs with their "examples", most of the 3rd party libraries are in source-controlled repositories like github (the IDE too, actually), and the forums are delightfully (?) un-purged, so I'm not sure it's as bad as you think.
Title: Re: Does Arduino have a future?
Post by: ballscrewbob on May 19, 2018, 01:13 pm
"Hopefully not..... If it does, it will be the end of it...."

There is a whole new set of generations coming through who are adopting newer boards.
It will never be the end.

Most consumer electronics has a very short life span of less than 5 years and mobile phones are among the shortest.

IMHO there is life in both the older and newer Arduino boards....

I could retire tomorrow but it doesn't mean its the end of me ;)


Title: Re: Does Arduino have a future?
Post by: westfw on May 20, 2018, 08:25 am
A pessimistic and cynical summary of the Arduino-day talks ( https://youtu.be/UjeIbeDLhQY?t=3h27m (https://youtu.be/UjeIbeDLhQY?t=3h27m) ) might be something like "we're changing our target audience from the original students, artists, and hobbyists to the more profitable set containing Educational Institutions and wanna-be Entrepreneurs.  Ie, from people who want to make things, to people who want to make money."

Title: Re: Does Arduino have a future?
Post by: ChrisTenone on May 20, 2018, 09:36 am
A pessimistic and cynical summary of the Arduino-day talks ( https://youtu.be/UjeIbeDLhQY?t=3h27m (https://youtu.be/UjeIbeDLhQY?t=3h27m) ) might be something like "we're changing our target audience from the original students, artists, and hobbyists to the more profitable set containing Educational Institutions and wanna-be Entrepreneurs.  Ie, from people who want to make things, to people who want to make money."


I can't think of a more sorry target audience than Educational Institutions. The whitepaper on Arduino technology for my institution (the largest community college district in the universe) still lists arduino.org as the preferred vendor for Arduino technology.

Fortunately, I qualified Sparkfun, DFRobot, Pololu, SeeedStudio, Osepp, Arduino.cc and Adafruit as vendors years ago.
Title: Re: Does Arduino have a future?
Post by: george_h on May 24, 2018, 08:40 am
You can still download the old IDEs with their "examples", most of the 3rd party libraries are in source-controlled repositories like github (the IDE too, actually), and the forums are delightfully (?) un-purged, so I'm not sure it's as bad as you think.

Actually, no, you can't.

If you go to the Software, Downloads section then look for previous IDEs they jump from 1.6.13 to 1.8.0.

What the hell happened to the numerous releases of 1.7?

They exist! I know they do as I downloaded 1.7.6 and 1.7.10 when they WERE available. They contain some very useful and practical examples including working examples for the Ethernet2 library which work on the LeonardoETH.

I know, I installed 1.7.10 on a an ancient Acer TravelMate 2490 (labelled as 4250 - I HATE it when manufacturers do that) laptop running Windows 10 Pro and this morning plugged in my LeonardoETH, set the board type and COM port, opened the DHCPAddressPrinter example from the Ethernet2 examples, built and uploaded it and BINGO - worked first time.

Try that with 1.8.5 and your in trouble. All those examples - GONE!

When I first tried 1.8.x (can't remember precisely which subversion) with one of my UNO R3's fitted with the offical GSM V2 shield, none of the examples would even build. They threw up shed loads of compile errors. Try exactly the same examples under 1.7.6 and they built, uploaded and (after sorting out an issue with the auto-power on for the GSM modem) worked first time.

All versions of 1.7.x of the IDE have been redacted from history.

This to me, and I've seen it a LOT with PC hardware, looks very suspiciously like attempting to kill off (by making them useless or very hard to use) retired products to get people to buy new.
Title: Re: Does Arduino have a future?
Post by: george_h on May 24, 2018, 08:55 am
"Hopefully not..... If it does, it will be the end of it...."

There is a whole new set of generations coming through who are adopting newer boards.
It will never be the end.

Most consumer electronics has a very short life span of less than 5 years and mobile phones are among the shortest.

IMHO there is life in both the older and newer Arduino boards....

I could retire tomorrow but it doesn't mean its the end of me ;)

Perhaps - new boards are great as with this area of technology standing still is going backwards.

With consumer products it is actually a lot, lot worse. When I worked for a major Japanese printer/fax manufacturer in the UK the "active" lifespan of lower end (i.e. home/home office/small business) products from introduction to withdrawal was <8 months. From the product development teams POV, back in Japan, the next range of products we were about to launch were already dead and buried.

But that is the way of the commercial world and how things are - long product "pipelines".

I fully agree there is plenty of life in older Arduino boards as well as lots of opportunity with the new ones. Unlike you (and I, being far from a "spring chicken" myself) though, I really do get the impression that Arduino really do want "retired" products to not just die, but to cease to have ever existed.

Try going to the Arduino section of Products on the main website. You normally get the overview of the entire range (current and past). Several times now I've done that and click on LeonardoETH in the Internet of Things section and been taken straight to the CURRENT PRODUCTS page. The first couple of times I thought perhaps I was doing something stupid or my mouse playing up. If I then went back and did the same thing I was taken to the page I wanted!

A bit strange that.

Not that it helped that much as the Getting Started link is broken, and has been for some time. It has been reported, but I don't see anyone being bothered to fix it.

Paranoia? Perhaps... Could also be it being erased from Arduino's history to push me toward buying something else.....
Title: Re: Does Arduino have a future?
Post by: westfw on May 24, 2018, 11:22 am

Quote
If you go to the Software, Downloads section then look for previous IDEs they jump from 1.6.13 to 1.8.0.
What the hell happened to the numerous releases of 1.7?
The 1.7.x versions were from arduino.org, and were mostly older than the 1.6.x versions.
Were there actually "numerous" versions?  I only vaguely recall what looked like attempts to mislead and confuse us by "leapfrogging" the arduino.cc versions.  (but then, I didn't have any of the .org specific boards.)  A lot of th
Quote
They threw up shed loads of compile errors.
That's because arduino.org did NOT pull in the changes that allow for easy additions of 3rd party hardware and libraries (which changed the directory/install/etc structure quite a bit.)
I guess it was all better than if there had been two separate 1.7.x "releases" going on simultaneously.

OTOH, releases prior to 0013 are also missing...
Title: Re: Does Arduino have a future?
Post by: westfw on May 24, 2018, 11:26 am
Hmm.  1.7.x is also still available on guthub:
https://github.com/arduino-org/Arduino/releases (https://github.com/arduino-org/Arduino/releases)
Title: Re: Does Arduino have a future?
Post by: falexandru on May 26, 2018, 04:38 pm
For me, the strength of Arduino is in the huge documentation, experience and wonderful community.

What I would like to see is something like ATMega 328 + connectors and a sort of "peripherals shield" to add to it.

+++

Another point is not to go ahead to fast.

I just ended my half year Arduino nano learning and experience to find out that this version may lo longer exist. Then I turn to Arduino pro mini 3.3 V - to find out that is very difficult to find them.

As long as the purpose is to learn, such fast moves seriously jeopardize my efforts.

I welcome MKR series - that is wonderful! But for me, their high cost prevent me to pick them for learning and education purpose.

Nano did a great job in respect to education/learning - in my opinion. It may be somehow obsolete, but cheap genuine units and even cheaper clones along with an wonderful simplicity and versatility - these points are difficult to beat.

If Arduino moves up to target more experienced people, then it may leave the empty space for other competitors - that is ok in the market sense, but is somehow disappointing (in my humble opinion).