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Using Arduino => General Electronics => Topic started by: ConfusionSaysASK on Oct 15, 2014, 06:53 am

Title: BreadBoard to Circuit Board - MIssing the link
Post by: ConfusionSaysASK on Oct 15, 2014, 06:53 am
In words I understand.
1) I have a line of led lights that light up in sequence, after the last one turns off it starts over, on my breadboard connected to my arduino uno.
2) I want to move that from my breadboard to a slim circuit board that I can solder onto and run wire back to the arduino uno so it can power and control it.
           a) what is a good circuit board to use for this? (I do not want a protoboard because I am not interested in stacking this on top of the uno. I want this separate so it can be as far away from the uno as I want.)
           b) what wire and method should I use?
           c) How do I secure the wires on the UNO
3) If I want to connect more than one of these to the uno how do I accomplish this if I only have 1 GRD and 5V?

Thanks in advance!  :smiley-eek:
Title: Re: BreadBoard to Circuit Board - MIssing the link
Post by: tylernt on Oct 15, 2014, 07:29 am
If you don't want to run a wire for every LED, you could mount one or more shift registers on the remote board. Would only require +5VDC, ground, and 2 or 3 control wires (depending on shift register type).

You only need to connect one +5VDC and one ground to the Arduino. To connect multiple boards, daisy chain them. Arduino -> remote board 1 -> remote board 2 -> etc.

Generic perfboard is available that does not stack on the Arduino like a shield. It's a standalone solution for general purpose circuits of any description.
Title: Re: BreadBoard to Circuit Board - MIssing the link
Post by: KenF on Oct 15, 2014, 07:49 am
Get a piece of blank copper clad board. (You'll probably have to buy a larger piece than you actually need) and while you're there get some etching fluid and an etch resist pen.

Work out where you are going to put the LEDs and (any resistors required) on the board.  Work out where you want the wires to connect.  (bear in mind that this is going to be the UNDERSIDE of the board)

Work out where all the copper tracks need to be to make the necessary connections.  Cut the board to the size you need.  Clean this up thoroughly.  It wants to be scrupulously clean. 

Now with that etch resist pen, draw those tracks onto the copper.  (make sure it's sparkly clean first). Wherever you are going to have a component or wire attached draw a little circle with a hole in the middle.    Leave this to stand for about half an hour to be sure that it is good and dry.

Find a plastic dish that you don't mind ruining. (Maybe from a frozen TV dinner).  Put some of that etching solution into the dish. You don't need it very deep, just about half an inch will do the job.

Place the board that you've prepared into the dish of etching fluid.  Since it's your first time it would be wise to have it face up.  Be patient, this takes some time.  Every so often you can rock it gently to dislodge any air bubbles on the surface of the board.

One all of the copper has been disolved (leaving just your tracks) remove it from the etching fluid and wash thouroughly.

With a piece of wire wool GENTLY rub off the etch resist ink that you applied earlier.

Drill the holes where you need them for your components.  Poke the legs of the components through the holes from the other side and then solder them in place.  (do the same with some jumper wires).

Make a coffee and have a break.

Title: Re: BreadBoard to Circuit Board - MIssing the link
Post by: CrossRoads on Oct 15, 2014, 08:10 am
Quote
MIssing the link

Being of course a good schematic to start with.
Title: Re: BreadBoard to Circuit Board - MIssing the link
Post by: ConfusionSaysASK on Oct 15, 2014, 08:21 am
Tylernt, Thank you.

"Shift register" were the key words to look for. I then found the following URL. (not sure yet how applicable but the pictures project a form of what was in my mind.)
http://arduino.cc/en/tutorial/ShiftOut

Is there a part number for this shift register? A standard thing at any radio shack?

Any examples of this daisy chaining concept?

Thanks as always.
Title: Re: BreadBoard to Circuit Board - MIssing the link
Post by: ConfusionSaysASK on Oct 15, 2014, 08:24 am
KenF,

Thanks. I will look into the whole etching process. This seems very interesting. Seems simple when reading which I am sure is not entirely the case.
Title: Re: BreadBoard to Circuit Board - MIssing the link
Post by: CrossRoads on Oct 15, 2014, 08:36 am
Commonly used is 74HC595.
TPIC6B595 and its variations (6595, 6A595, 6C595, 6D595) are higher current and voltage rated parts that are better LED drivers.

Or WS2812B, driver & LED in one package.
One of many variations from adafruit
http://www.adafruit.com/product/1312
Title: Re: BreadBoard to Circuit Board - MIssing the link
Post by: KenF on Oct 15, 2014, 08:57 am

KenF,

Thanks. I will look into the whole etching process. This seems very interesting. Seems simple when reading which I am sure is not entirely the case.

For a little line of LEDS it is!  Another method you can use to get the circuit printed onto the board is to literally print it out on glossy paper on a standard Laser printer.  You then place this on top of the copper clad (print side down) and use a flat iron to transfer the print to the board.  Since toner is actually just plastic, it melts and sticks to the copper.

To remove the paper before etching you just leave it to soak in water and gently rock it.  This can also take quite a while, but eventually the paper will come away cleanly, leaving your design printed on the board.
Title: Re: BreadBoard to Circuit Board - MIssing the link
Post by: tylernt on Oct 15, 2014, 04:47 pm
For through-hole components like 5mm LEDs and PDIP shift registers, I much prefer perfboard. I would only resort to etching for SMT components.

If you are lighting LEDs sequentially, an unlatched shift register only requires 2 control pins. An example part would be 74HC164. And rather than "ShiftOut", you just put the data pin high and toggle the clock pin every time you want an additional LED lit. You can extinguish them sequentially in a similar manner, or, you can use ShiftOut to extinguish them so quickly (within microseconds) the human eye won't be able to tell that they didn't all turn off in the same instant.

Latched shift registers, which require 3 control pins, are a little better for when you want to light arbitrary patterns of LEDs or when you want to drive them to higher power levels (as with a TPIC).
Title: Re: BreadBoard to Circuit Board - MIssing the link
Post by: ConfusionSaysASK on Oct 19, 2014, 12:31 am
The Follow up. I tried creating the following

http://arduino.cc/en/tutorial/ShiftOut
Example 1

but of course I tried to do it on one breadboard. Can anyone see the potential issue? (I am guessing it is a hardware issue and not a programming issue as the code was copied verbatim. Only difference is one breadboard. )

Only difference in wiring setup is that I didn't use white cables to connect to a third board and no ground back from the third board.
Instead I did 595>resistors>LED with cathode to common ground.
I even put in the .01uf Capacitor.

Additionally the white cable to the green led is just in the location due to room issues since I noticed that pin0 had a led on it.

Title: Re: BreadBoard to Circuit Board - MIssing the link
Post by: ConfusionSaysASK on Oct 19, 2014, 02:22 am
Update 2, progress.

I followed
http://arduino.cc/en/tutorial/ShiftOut

Example 1 to the letter and it didn't work. In hindsight the problem was that there was too much impedance on the path to the LED's.

Reason being is that when I removed the resistors using code package 1.3 as array it worked. (Never tried Code sample 1.1 and 1.2 only dimly lit or not at all when the resistors were in. Code Sample 1.2 did work without resistors with a little unexpectedness but that would have been solved with the capacitor the author suggests using in the article..) Also note that the shift register 595 pushes current to a led which is only a percentage of full power. Hence adding a resistor on this makes it almost impossible to power them.

I was then able to move it all back to one breadboard as per my original attempt without the resistors and that also worked.
Title: Re: BreadBoard to Circuit Board - MIssing the link
Post by: tylernt on Oct 19, 2014, 03:09 am
Except in certain specific scenarios, you should ALWAYS use resistors with LEDs. Without a resistor, you are stressing both the LED and the IC it's connected to (Arduino, shift register, etc). You're luck you didn't blow the LED or the IC (or both).

If your LEDs are too dim with a resistor, you have selected the wrong resistor. Use this website to find the appropriate value:

http://ledcalc.com

20mA is the typical maximum continuous current your average 5mm LED can handle. Coincidentally, that's also the recommended maximum for an Arduino pin.

The maximum for your shift register will vary, but it may be as low as 6mA, so you may require a larger value resistor. Check the datasheet.
Title: Re: BreadBoard to Circuit Board - MIssing the link
Post by: TomGeorge on Oct 19, 2014, 09:50 am
Hi, what value were the resistors that you removed to get it to work?
What is their colour code?

In the picture you supplied it is hard to red  them.

Thanks Tom..... :)
Title: Re: BreadBoard to Circuit Board - MIssing the link
Post by: Paul__B on Oct 21, 2014, 09:14 am
Place the board that you've prepared into the dish of etching fluid.  Since it's your first time it would be wise to have it face up.  Be patient, this takes some time.  Every so often you can rock it gently to dislodge any air bubbles on the surface of the board.
It seems to me that either you have not actually etched a board yourself, or you are using an etchant very different to that I have used (Ferric Chloride).  If you just let it sit or rock it gently nothing will happen except that the resist will eventually lift.

It is generally necessary to use a bubble etch system with an airstone at the bottom of the (vertical) tank evenly aerating the board, or agitate the board quite vigorously in the hot solution.

You have not mentioned what to do after etching - return the etchant to the bottle or dispose of it (how?).

Title: Re: BreadBoard to Circuit Board - MIssing the link
Post by: Grumpy_Mike on Oct 21, 2014, 11:27 pm
Note the capacitor is wrong, it should go to the power rail not the latch pin.
Title: Re: BreadBoard to Circuit Board - MIssing the link
Post by: runaway_pancake on Oct 22, 2014, 03:51 am
Place the board that you've prepared into the dish of etching fluid.  Since it's your first time it would be wise to have it face up.  Be patient, this takes some time.  Every so often you can rock it gently to dislodge any air bubbles on the surface of the board.
It seems to me that either you have not actually etched a board yourself, or you are using an etchant very different to that I have used (Ferric Chloride).  If you just let it sit or rock it gently nothing will happen except that the resist will eventually lift.

It is generally necessary to use a bubble etch system with an airstone at the bottom of the (vertical) tank evenly aerating the board, or agitate the board quite vigorously in the hot solution.
I've etched boards using ferric chloride, never had a bubbler or heater.  Shallow plastic tray, copper side up, enough solution to cover and maybe again as much more, rocking that back and forth casually and constantly.  Works pretty good, maybe 15 min as I recollect.
[But, I agree that its just laying there, "soaking", does no good.]
Title: Re: BreadBoard to Circuit Board - MIssing the link
Post by: KenF on Oct 22, 2014, 09:07 am
Place the board that you've prepared into the dish of etching fluid.  Since it's your first time it would be wise to have it face up.  Be patient, this takes some time.  Every so often you can rock it gently to dislodge any air bubbles on the surface of the board.
It seems to me that either you have not actually etched a board yourself, or you are using an etchant very different to that I have used (Ferric Chloride).  If you just let it sit or rock it gently nothing will happen except that the resist will eventually lift.

It is generally necessary to use a bubble etch system with an airstone at the bottom of the (vertical) tank evenly aerating the board, or agitate the board quite vigorously in the hot solution.

You have not mentioned what to do after etching - return the etchant to the bottle or dispose of it (how?).


What absolute BS.  Ferric chloride DOES dissolve copper.  With or without bubbles.  I've etched many boards with just such a method.  Has someone been selling you watered down etchant?  Warming the solution helps but even that is not essential.

As for waste disposal?  Do I come across as a Health and Safety officer? 
Title: Re: BreadBoard to Circuit Board - MIssing the link
Post by: KenF on Oct 22, 2014, 09:17 am
I've etched boards using ferric chloride, never had a bubbler or heater.  Shallow plastic tray, copper side up, enough solution to cover and maybe again as much more, rocking that back and forth casually and constantly.  Works pretty good, maybe 15 min as I recollect.
[But, I agree that its just laying there, "soaking", does no good.]
Thank you Runaway_Pancake. 

BTW just sitting there still works, it just takes longer.  Also without ANY agitation at all you can get some nasty side effects from bubbles.  At ambient room temperature, with a bit of rocking every 5 minutes or so takes about 40-50 mins. 
Title: Re: BreadBoard to Circuit Board - MIssing the link
Post by: ConfusionSaysASK on Oct 29, 2014, 08:02 pm
Tylernt, you are right. I agree. But for lack of a volt meter at the time and using an the old school technique of observation also known as putting your finger in the socket I realized that was the case. I did also look up the white paper on the 74HC595 and it does say that it has built in resistance.

TomGeorge, the resistors I removed were the 220 ohm recommended in the following example
http://arduino.cc/en/tutorial/ShiftOut
and the blue ones were about the same as they came with those leds.

Paul_B, I have never etched a board before. That may be the next thing to learn. For now I am perfboarding it.

Grumpy_Mike, If you mean in the first picture, that capacitor was on another board but not connected to the project those pictures were of.
Title: Re: BreadBoard to Circuit Board - MIssing the link
Post by: Grumpy_Mike on Oct 29, 2014, 08:11 pm
Quote
I did also look up the white paper on the 74HC595 and it does say that it has built in resistance.
No I think you misunderstood that one.
Title: Re: BreadBoard to Circuit Board - MIssing the link
Post by: tylernt on Nov 01, 2014, 06:14 pm
I did also look up the white paper on the 74HC595 and it does say that it has built in resistance.
Link? The 74HC595 datsheet I've seen has a rated maximum current but the chip itself does not provide a limit, an external resistor does that.
Title: Re: BreadBoard to Circuit Board - MIssing the link
Post by: ConfusionSaysASK on Nov 12, 2014, 04:41 am
Grumpy_Mike - Please clarify then. Additionally at this point things are progressing. I am happy to say I have made my first soldered perfboard of a portion of the project. And it actually worked! Ya I was skeptical it would too.

Tylernt - http://www.nxp.com/documents/data_sheet/74HC_HCT595.pdf is the link. Table 9 Page 15. RL = 1kohm.  There is a chance I misunderstood what they meant by it since I am just learning but that was enough for me to decide to pull the resistors.

Title: Re: BreadBoard to Circuit Board - MIssing the link
Post by: Grumpy_Mike on Nov 12, 2014, 08:16 am
Quote
Grumpy_Mike - Please clarify then.
I think it is you that needs to clarify things. You think the chip has internal resistors. It does not.

Therefore you have to tell me what you think you saw in the data sheet ( it is not called a white paper ) that caused you to think this. Then I can tell you what mistake you are making.

Quote
Table 9 Page 15. RL = 1kohm.
that is a test circuit RL and all the other components are what you add to the output in order to test it. It is not built into the chip. They are the parts that are used to obtain that graph. Any change in those values in your actual circuit will change that graph.
Title: Re: BreadBoard to Circuit Board - MIssing the link
Post by: ConfusionSaysASK on Nov 12, 2014, 08:31 pm
Grumpy_Mike - Sounds good and now I know! Thanks! Unfortunately that was the logic I used to do what I did and fortunately it worked. When I get a minute I will post a circuit diagram for you to look at. This way your learned mind can help me figure out why it worked?
Title: Re: BreadBoard to Circuit Board - MIssing the link
Post by: pwillard on Nov 13, 2014, 01:57 pm
This is often the case... where lack of knowledge and the fact that it worked are translated into... "It's working perfectly" which in fact, is far from the truth.  It may be working, but working as you wanted it to can be far from working perfectly. This translates into wonderful things like...  "Why did My arduino pin die?" or   "It worked fine for a few weeks but now it's stopped working... should I just buy a new shift register?" (answer: no, you need to fix your design)

The datasheet is a mystifying document to newcomers and it's easy to misinterpret unless you have spent some time understanding what the manufacturers are trying to tell you.  For example, reading Maximum ratings as Nominal ratings is a common mistake.   Your goal as a circuit designer is to NOT attain the MAX ratings in your design... but to actually *avoid* them.
Title: Re: BreadBoard to Circuit Board - MIssing the link
Post by: ConfusionSaysASK on Nov 16, 2014, 01:10 am
PWillard. Makes sense as well as being nicely put. I now have a volt meter and will be taking measurements that the naked eye cannot see alone and the tongue test isn't best suited for. Good times all!
Title: Re: BreadBoard to Circuit Board - MIssing the link
Post by: Grumpy_Mike on Nov 16, 2014, 05:34 am
When I get a minute I will post a circuit diagram for you to look at.
Still waiting. A photo of a pencil drawn schematic will do.
Title: Re: BreadBoard to Circuit Board - MIssing the link
Post by: ConfusionSaysASK on Dec 07, 2014, 01:26 am
So here is part of it. Doing this piecemeal so I can round out the skills needed and put each part to bed before moving onto the next. Attached are three pictures. The schematic for this is basically the shiftout example 2 minus the resistors. http://arduino.cc/en/tutorial/ShiftOut I have soldered it in such a way that the pictures are easy to follow in relation to the tutorial. Now the following questions have surfaced. My test code is attached as well.

Continuity testing was not under power. Both LEDs were working LEDs when powered.
1)   I continuity tested one of the LEDs and got a beep. I continuity tested another led and did not get a beep, why? I do get a voltage reading on both though. Why is that?
2)   When you touch the leads to the LED legs does the electricity also flow down the anode and cathode into the circuit? Some of the LEDs display as .814volts and others 1.4volts even though the LEDs come from the same batch.
3)   In the continuity test on the circuit, why will the LED not light up even though it will light up when you do the test on the same LED before it is soldered to the board? (Does this have to do with Question 2 as power loss via dispersion throughout the circuit?)
4)   What is a simple way to test if a multiplexer is working? Can this be done with a multimeter?
5)   How come certain LEDs light up brighter than others?
6)   Why do four LEDs not light up even though they test positive on a continuity test.
7)   If a LED was melted because it was overloaded, would it pass a continuity test? What if it was connected to a circuit and it had a way to get the electricity back to the other lead through the circuit?
8)   Any way to test if I got the anode and cathode backwards?
9)   If I cut a LED off its legs can I solder a new one back on and more importantly will it work?
10)   Can I just solder a resistor into the anode leg of a LED to save space? Take out a section of the leg and solder in the resistor?
11)   Why are LEDs on when I plug the USB cable into the computer to power the board given that I have a delay statement before any code can execute? Specifically Q1, Q7 on the first multiplexer and Q1 on the second multiplexer? Given the code, all LEDs should be off when we begin?
12)   If you turn the power off to the Arduino Uno are any instructions left in memory that may run the next time you power the board?

Title: Re: BreadBoard to Circuit Board - MIssing the link
Post by: Grumpy_Mike on Dec 07, 2014, 09:45 am
Stop!
You have no resistors in line with those LEDs, you are killing stuff here.
Reading the thread again you have been repeatedly told this and you repeatedly ignore this.
Given that it is not worth answering your questions because it will be a waste of time because you are not in a mind set to learn anything.
Basically, testing for continuity on a built circuit tells you nothing useful.

Quote
The schematic for this is basically the shiftout example 2 minus the resistors. http://arduino.cc/en/tutorial/ShiftOut
No you are not doing that, there is no capacitor. Again you have been told about this and again you have ignored it. It is VITAL you give people a schematic of what you are doing, NOT something like you are doing.

I was trying to help but if you continue to ignore things you will never get anywhere with electronics.