Arduino Forum

Using Arduino => General Electronics => Topic started by: adele on Dec 02, 2014, 02:15 am

Title: Soldering Temp / Fixing Trace
Post by: adele on Dec 02, 2014, 02:15 am
Hello,

I have been having a problem learning to solder correctly. I have an Elenco kit and it tells me that the solder included with the kit should be 700F. I set my soldering station to 375C.

I have a lot of problems getting the solder to flow correctly. The solder never melts unless I actually touch it to the tip of the soldering iron. The Elenco book tells me not to do that.

Once I get the part soldered it's not very stable. I just soldered a switch to the board a little bit ago, and the round silver area that I'm supposed to solder to, came right off of the board. Now it just looks brown and won't hold solder anymore.

I've watched a lot of YouTube videos but I'm clearly still doing something wrong.

Also, is there anyway to fix the board that I have, or is it just junk now?

I also think that I might be using the wrong type of soldering station. I tried using one of those small soldering irons from Radio Shack but it was not melting the solder. I thought it wasn't getting hot enough for lead free solder.

So I am using this soldering station (http://www.amazon.com/Kendal-REWORK-SOLDERING-IRON-STATION/dp/B004ZB9D4O/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1417482290&sr=8-1&keywords=kendal+852d%2B%2B), but it's still not working well for me. I think the amps might be too high on it.

Thanks!
Title: Re: Soldering Temp / Fixing Trace
Post by: ghlawrence2000 on Dec 02, 2014, 05:26 am
If you are using a tiny pencil tip, there will be a significant initial drop in temperature when you touch the iron to the area to be soldered. The smaller the tip, the bigger the drop in temperature.

It is not that you should not touch the tip of the iron with solder, but ideally, you will have enough solder on the tip of your iron to form a thermal bond with the area you wish to solder. This will allow heat transfer into the joint, which you then apply the solder to. If the temperature is well matched to the melting point of your solder, and size of tip is large enough to supply enough heat to the body of metal you are trying to solder, the solder will melt and spread(flow).

There are several things that can cause you problems, dirt, insufficient heat transfer, mismatched iron/solder temperatures.

I suspect you are new to soldering, and you have asked a sensible question! You summarised that your solder is 700F = 371C  so chose a setting on your soldering iron of 375C. That would seem absolutely logical in theory.

You have not said exactly which Elenco soldering station you have, or exactly which solder you have, as such there are many potential points to address here.

Using the Amazon iron as an example, of the 5 tips included with that iron, my feeling is that the 2.4D tip (Number 4) would be the most suitable choice, based on it is big enough to enable heat transfer but small enough to not be too large if soldering IC legs for example. I would have a better idea of which to recommend to you if I saw the tips in my hand, it may be that number 3 is suitable also, and would achieve a higher heat transfer. If number 3 is not too big for what you are trying to solder, try that one. Tips 1 and 2 are simply too small for general purpose electronic soldering, as heat loss is too high, and transfer too low.

Quality and type of solder varies tremendously and has a dramatic effect on the soldered joint. Everybody has gone 'lead free' mad, but lead free is not as easy for a beginner as traditional lead solder. I have had a soldering iron in my hand for about 40 years, and I am still using the same solder. It is the choice of professionals.  Expensive, but ease and quality of finished joint speaks for itself. The solder I am referring to is Ersin multicore 60/40 activated rosin flux. http://www.easyflip.co.uk/Farnell_element14_2013_UK/ebook.html?page=3620 (http://www.easyflip.co.uk/Farnell_element14_2013_UK/ebook.html?page=3620)
The 60/40 505 No-Clean Flux or 60/40 511 No-Clean Flux types would be my recommendation.

Now we have identified a good quality suitable solder, let me draw your attention to some of the important points. Specifically for the 511. "High wetting ability - good spread on copper, brass and nickel - for fast soldering". You can just watch it spread almost instantly! The main point I wish to draw your attention to though, is the melting point of the solder, and the suggested iron temperature!! Then you will see why your initial guess at setting you iron was WAY OFF the mark...... For the 511 multicore solder the melting point is 180C with an iron tip temperature recommendation of 308C.

So I think now you can see, as is typical with these bundled irons and solders they are a good price and a good introduction to general purpose soldering, but some refinement will make your experience so much better. I could not see an actual specification for the solder Elenco supply, and you didn't specify which particular model of Elenco kit you had. So my recommendation would be get some good quality solder such as that I mentioned, (activated rosin cored 60/40 leaded solder) not necessarily ersin multicore brand. And get the largest possible tip size suitable for the style of soldering you are planning to work on.

Flux, can compensate for some dirtiness, but most important with soldering, is cleanliness of the joint!

What concerns me most about your statement of 700F solder, you run the risk of damaging IC's, transistors, Arduinos!, anything really if you are working at those sorts of temperatures. My main recommendation to you, get some suitable solder.

Regards,

Graham
Title: Re: Soldering Temp / Fixing Trace
Post by: adele on Dec 02, 2014, 05:53 am
Thanks for your in-depth reply. I am looking at the solder page you gave me. I have to buy my products from Mouser.com. Can you recommend any solder product from their Web site that would work?

Lastly, is there any way to fix the board that I have, or do I just need to buy a new one? I guess the soldering iron was too hot and it caused the metal on the board to fall off, so now there is nothing for me to solder the switch to.

EDIT: One other question. Is there a way for me to clean the board before I start soldering to make sure that the solder will stick? I saw some people on YouTube using alcohol. Is that okay to use?
Title: Re: Soldering Temp / Fixing Trace
Post by: DVDdoug on Dec 02, 2014, 06:02 am
I assume you are using flux-core solder, but some additional flux will often help.

Where I work, we use water soluble flux and lead-free solder.   It isn't as easy to work with as regular-old tin/lead solder and rosin-flux.    I don't have much experience with no-clean flux.

Quote
Lastly, is there any way to fix the board that I have, or do I just need to buy a new one?
Sometimes you can replace a trace with wire.    But, that won't mechanically hold the switch and it's ugly.    If it's just a small break in a trace, you can often bridge the break with a piece of small-gauge bus wire, or wire-wrap wire.    If the pad is damaged or missing the repair is more messy.

Quote
One other question. Is there a way for me to clean the board before soldering...?
Alcohol won't hurt but it's not that effective.  The flux has some "cleaning action" when heated, but if there is some corrosion you may need to mechanically scrape the copper with an X-Acto knife or maybe steel wool.   
Title: Re: Soldering Temp / Fixing Trace
Post by: ghlawrence2000 on Dec 02, 2014, 06:21 am
I guess the soldering iron was too hot and it caused the metal on the board to fall off, so now there is nothing for me to solder the switch to.
:( Without knowing what board, and how much damage, I cannot comment whether any part of it is salvageable, but almost certainly excess heat would not have helped you.

I cannot get on with the mouser website, and being forced to the UK site which I suspect is not where you are from.

You need, Multicore, activated Rosin flux (2 or 3 %) 60/40 tin/lead, I would suggest 0.8 -1.0mm ( no idea what that is in inches!) I could only see 1lb rolls on mouser which is a HUGE amount of solder to buy as a trial and error exercise. Can you not order a smaller quantity from Amazon? Such as.... http://www.amazon.com/Kester-Pocket-Pack-Solder-0-031/dp/B00068IJNQ/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1417497043&sr=8-4&keywords=60+40+solder+rosin+core (http://www.amazon.com/Kester-Pocket-Pack-Solder-0-031/dp/B00068IJNQ/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1417497043&sr=8-4&keywords=60+40+solder+rosin+core)

Once you have found a product that is suitable and you can get on with it, then you can buy a larger quantity.  :) Sorry I couldn't help further. My preference is the ersin multicore, I cannot really comment on what is available in your country. Although you don't need to go for the most expensive, definitely don't go for the cheapest (chinese) brands.... It is false economy!

Good luck.

Regards,

Graham
Title: Re: Soldering Temp / Fixing Trace
Post by: KenF on Dec 02, 2014, 07:04 am
I'd suggest you avoid the lead free solder.  The leaded solder is far easier to work with and unless you eat the stuff it's not going to poison you.
Title: Re: Soldering Temp / Fixing Trace
Post by: Foggiest on Dec 02, 2014, 06:14 pm
I'd suggest you avoid the lead free solder.  The leaded solder is far easier to work with and unless you eat the stuff it's not going to poison you.
Seconded loudly!

Get some rosin multicore solder, get 63/37 mix.

Then practice on junk stuff until your technique is right.
Pads coming off can be too high temperature, but it can also be heavy handed or taking too long on the pads.

Get some flux too (flux pen or gel syringe), and some isopropyl alcohol.

Sooo
Clean board in the IPA, pads should be nice and shiny with no grease or oil residues.
Place component, apply extra flux (flux pen).
Clean the tip of iron on a dry tissue, then wet it with fresh solder.(be quick)
Place the tip so that the blob of solder touches both the pad and the component.(be quick)
Push fresh solder into the molten blob and then onto the pad... it should flow quickly.(be quick but thorough and observant)
Lift iron, rinse and repeat until it becomes second nature!

The joint should be shiny and clean, with some flux on, not burnt offerings!(no brown or black scum and dry powdery dull solder).

NOTE! Start the iron too low 150C, and slowly work out at what temp reading the solder starts to melt.
This will help identify solder melting temp, and any offset that the station has (once you know the correct temp you are fine!)
The solder ratio I stated earlier is for a eutectic mix, this has a lower temp and will alloy and lower the temp of other solders too... can go surprisingly low 230C should be around the mark.


You keep stating Mouser as point of purchase, no idea where and what, if in Europe, TME have genuine products and are supersonic fast delivery... just take your time on the website as it is like some browser based puzzle game!
Title: Re: Soldering Temp / Fixing Trace
Post by: CrossRoads on Dec 02, 2014, 06:51 pm
Use the thinnest solder you can.
http://www.mouser.com/Tools-Supplies/Soldering/Solder/_/N-b11qq?P=1yysntiZ1z0jnr7&Keyword=mg+chemicals+solder&FS=True

I buy 1 pound rolls as we assemble a lot of little cards, 60/40.
Title: Re: Soldering Temp / Fixing Trace
Post by: adele on Dec 03, 2014, 12:52 am
Thanks everyone. I am going to try all of these tips and see what happens.

I thought it was the fumes of the leaded solder that you had to worry about? I have stayed away from it because people keep saying its really bad.

Also, when I said the traces were damaged, I think I used the wrong term. I looked online and it appears what happened is that the soldering pad lifted off of the board. I could post a picture but it's really tiny and really won't show what I'm talking about.

So I am wondering if the solder pad that lifted off of the board, can be fixed, so I can re-solder the switch back onto the board.

Thanks for providing me with so many useful tips.
Title: Re: Soldering Temp / Fixing Trace
Post by: larryd on Dec 03, 2014, 12:58 am
Quote
So I am wondering if the solder pad that lifted off of the board, can be fixed
Tack a pad off a scrap PCB using extra heat.
Move it to the place you want to repair and carefully solder it in place.
Make sure you have continuity from the pad to all traces top and bottom.
Use some pre-tinned wire to make continuity if there is none. (I have use stripped 30AWG wire used for wire wrapping)
Clean the result with alcohol and a Q tip.
Title: Re: Soldering Temp / Fixing Trace
Post by: polymorph on Dec 03, 2014, 01:14 am
Lead does not go to vapor at soldering temperatures. The smoke from soldering is the flux. You do NOT want to breath it in, so don't.

I am going to pile on and say, get some 63/37 leaded solder. Forget lead free, it is very touchy. You must use a lot of extra flux for lead free solder.

700F is NOT going to burn up your boards! I've been working on electronics professionally for many years, and for through-hole components I almost exclusively used 800F. I use lower temps with surface mount, but I'm still up around 700F.

If you lower the tip temperature too much, you end up spending a lot more time applying heat, and  are then more likely to damage the parts or the PCB.

You may be able to simply clean off the brown stuff from the trace. Isopropyl was mentioned. If the pad around the hole is actually torn off, you may find that you can just bend the component lead over onto the trace.
Title: Re: Soldering Temp / Fixing Trace
Post by: Tkrain on Dec 03, 2014, 01:36 am
If you've got the part secured (with joints on the other pads, with superglue, with some ugly kludge, whatever) but still don't have continuity on the lead/pad that you lifted, you can often follow the trace to find what that connection leads to on the board and run a small gauge wire from the lead to the next connection point.  Just be sure that your new "trace" doesn't bridge to other pads/locations that it isn't supposed to.  Pulled pads are something that even the most experienced solderers encounter from time to time. We've had some boards at our facility that get pads pulled just because you looked at them funny.  

As has been mentioned before, the big things here are time and temperature.  Both should be as low as possible to achieve the joint.   Too high of a temperature or too long holding the iron to the joint can burn out LEDs, ruin ICs, etc, not to mention what you've already discovered: detach pads from their trace connections.

The fumes you mentioned are bad for you regardless of whether you are using conventional leaded solder or lead-free.  You don't want to be breathing either solder mixture's fumes ever.  Get a small fan (some people wire PC cooling fans, we mostly use little personal fans) pointed away from where you are soldering.  You don't want a strong breeze, just a little draft that can pull the solder fumes away from you.  You don't want to cool the solder, just draw away the fumes.  

At our facility, we usually bake the boards at fairly low temperature, and make sure we keep our hands clean before handling them.  Most PCBs can be cleaned with hot water before soldering (but they need to be completely dry before soldering!!!!!).  If we do pre-clean the boards, we blow the water off with compressed air and bake them for an hour in a circulating oven.  

When you're first learning to solder, flux is your friend!  You should be using a solder with a flux core, but it usually never hurts to apply a little flux to the lead and pad before soldering.  That being said, most flux solutions are corrosive over time, so you need to clean the board afterwards to get rid of it.   There are "no clean" fluxes (both liquid and in some solder cores) that eliminate the need to clean the board.  
Title: Re: Soldering Temp / Fixing Trace
Post by: adele on Dec 03, 2014, 01:51 am
Thanks.

I ordered 2 parts:

http://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?R=835-Pvirtualkey59020000virtualkey590-835-P

http://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?R=4884-227Gvirtualkey59020000virtualkey590-4884-227G

I am still going to use the lead-free solder to practice with because I have a lot of it. I was also able to get 1,000 0 Ohm resistors for $8 so I am going to use those to practice with. So I have something to solder.

I'm also going to use a bigger tip on my soldering iron. The tip I am using is very tiny. It actually fits right into the socket on a breadboard. It's like a small pin, so it sounds like that is another reason why my soldering is failing.

I have a fume extractor setup on my desk already. I can put it right on top of my PC board, so almost all of the smoke goes directly up and into it.

The switch is still attached to the board, and it still works. It just wobbles back and forth because the pads lifted. I was going to try using a hot glue gun over the solder to see if it will stick back onto the board. I don't know if that will damage anything. I don't think hot glue is conductive.

I don't like the idea of using lead solder but I am going to try it... Since that it what everyone recommends.
Title: Re: Soldering Temp / Fixing Trace
Post by: larryd on Dec 03, 2014, 02:06 am
Quote
It just wobbles back and forth
5 Minute Epoxy
Title: Re: Soldering Temp / Fixing Trace
Post by: ghlawrence2000 on Dec 03, 2014, 02:50 am
I don't like the idea of using lead solder but I am going to try it... Since that it what everyone recommends.
There is a very good reason everyone recommends it........... The lead free stuff is Sh** and a REAL nightmare to use compared to leaded and that is for people that have been soldering all their lives. Lol.

What is your main reason why you don't you like the idea? If you live in a house with plumbing older than 1986, your drinking water pipes were almost certainly soldered with leaded solder, remember that every time you have a drink ;)

Regards,

Graham

Edit, for a less biased opinion, read the following article (which sounds great the way it is written!), and then read the user comments below  ;)  :smiley-roll-blue: How to go green with lead free solder (http://hackaday.com/2008/05/22/how-to-go-green-with-lead-free-solder/)
Title: Re: Soldering Temp / Fixing Trace
Post by: KenF on Dec 03, 2014, 02:54 am
What is your main reason why you don't you like the idea? If you live in a house with plumbing older than 1986, your drinking water pipes were almost certainly soldered with leaded solder, remember that every time you have a drink ;)
Up until I was 10 years old ALL the water that I drank was delivered to the taps through lead pipes.  It's actually the reason that the latin for lead (plumbum) has the same root as "plumbing"
Title: Re: Soldering Temp / Fixing Trace
Post by: adele on Dec 03, 2014, 02:59 am
Well I'm going to try it. I will post back later in the week after I get the stuff and let you know if it works any better.

Thanks.
Title: Re: Soldering Temp / Fixing Trace
Post by: KenF on Dec 03, 2014, 03:00 am
Well I'm going to try it. I will post back later in the week after I get the stuff and let you know if it works any better.
It will :)
Title: Re: Soldering Temp / Fixing Trace
Post by: ghlawrence2000 on Dec 03, 2014, 03:29 am
After EVERYTHING from all these people, you are still not convinced..... Hmmmmm. If you don't want advice, don't ask for it?  :smiley-mr-green:

Best wishes,

Graham
Title: Re: Soldering Temp / Fixing Trace
Post by: Tkrain on Dec 03, 2014, 05:34 am
The only reason to work with Lead Free Solder is if you're building a board for a customer who has ROHS requirements.  I work at a professional board assembly facility and I can't name one person there who likes working with Lead Free Solder.  It's harder to flow, significantly harder to desolder, it's more expensive, and it doesn't look as good when your product's finished.  Don't get me wrong, we use it on about 1/3rd of the orders we produce, and when the order comes in, we do it.  We definitely prefer the good old leaded solder, though.  Personally, I'm not convinced that the lead free stuff is any safer than the leaded alternatives, but it -=is=- ROHS compliant.

I don't think anybody is saying to take your spool of Lead Free and toss it in the trash can, but especially while you're learning, do yourself a huge favor and switch to leaded.
Title: Re: Soldering Temp / Fixing Trace
Post by: Foggiest on Dec 03, 2014, 09:35 am
Have to giggle a little at the potential dangers of using a leaded solder (It is a material to be respected!).
No one seemed to notice the use of adhesives to repair the damaged pad.

Be VERY careful doing this, EG superglue contains cyanide, I wouldn't hang around to find out what is given off if this compound meets a hot soldering iron.
Title: Re: Soldering Temp / Fixing Trace
Post by: nilton61 on Dec 03, 2014, 10:00 am
Have you guys ever heard of ROHS directive? Have you ever wondered what becomes of old electronics?
Soldering lead free is different from soldering leaded but not necessarily harder although it can seem so for anyone accustomed to leaded solder.
The secret to a good solder joint is as always:
Title: Re: Soldering Temp / Fixing Trace
Post by: Coding Badly on Dec 03, 2014, 10:26 am

Quote
...unless you eat the stuff it's not going to poison you.
Which means wash your hands after handling it.  Especially if you have children or pets.  And keep it in a closed container / out of reach so children and pets can't get to it.

Title: Re: Soldering Temp / Fixing Trace
Post by: Foggiest on Dec 03, 2014, 10:27 am
Have you guys ever heard of ROHS directive? Have you ever wondered what becomes of old electronics?
Soldering lead free is different from soldering leaded but not necessarily harder although it can seem so for anyone accustomed to leaded solder.

Sorry, but this is incorrect.

Lead free solder is inferior in every way that counts.
It is harder to work with IMHE (I have some experience with soldering)
The joint is not as mechanically strong
The joint is not as chemically/crystalline stable

Make something properly with leaded solder and it will not hit he landfill for nearly half a century (HP bench gear, Yaesu ft101 etc)
Make something properly with leadfree, it lots of it will hit the landfill within 15 years.
Title: Re: Soldering Temp / Fixing Trace
Post by: nilton61 on Dec 03, 2014, 11:02 am
That's a strange remark since there are no more exceptions from the ROHS directive which means that even life-support and aerospace electronics are soldered lead free. Any way, most electronic devices will be outdated in 15 years anyway and will have to be recycled. The concept of a landfill should be even more outdated.
Title: Re: Soldering Temp / Fixing Trace
Post by: Coding Badly on Dec 03, 2014, 11:07 am
Quote
Lead free solder is inferior in every way that counts.
Some are.  Some aren't.  According to people who test and report such things (NIST).

Title: Re: Soldering Temp / Fixing Trace
Post by: Foggiest on Dec 03, 2014, 11:37 am
That's a strange remark since there are no more exceptions from the ROHS directive which means that even life-support and aerospace electronics are soldered lead free. Any way, most electronic devices will be outdated in 15 years anyway and will have to be recycled. The concept of a landfill should be even more outdated.
It was you that called the end destination as a supporting argument to your side!?

I wouldn't know about life support, and haven't been near MOD work for decades.

To all intents and purpose, here on this forum, leaded solder is superior.
Stating aerospace and military practices is not relevant to the context, like turning up at a welding class and negating the lesson because all formula one cars are now kevlar.

IMVHO
Title: Re: Soldering Temp / Fixing Trace
Post by: nilton61 on Dec 03, 2014, 12:11 pm
Every piece of electronic equipment i bought the last 5 years had a RoHS sticker on it. That means no lead (look at your arduino board). Face the facts, lead is harmful in both short and long terms both for the individual and for the environment and unnecessary. And legislature in the Eu forbids it. It is fully possible to achieve solder joints that adhere to IPC standards even for an amateur given the right equipment and the right practice.
Title: Re: Soldering Temp / Fixing Trace
Post by: Foggiest on Dec 03, 2014, 01:19 pm
Every piece of electronic equipment i bought the last 5 years had a RoHS sticker on it. That means no lead (look at your arduino board). Face the facts, lead is harmful in both short and long terms both for the individual and for the environment and unnecessary. And legislature in the Eu forbids it. It is fully possible to achieve solder joints that adhere to IPC standards even for an amateur given the right equipment and the right practice.
No, again the ROHS compliance is for COMMERCIAL products, that is why you see stickers.
Anything you make is your own business, and for that matter small commercial runs of leaded aren't exactly going to set off alarms at the CIA!

This banging on about the harm of lead is just falling for the political crap blindly.
I have explained how lead free halves the life and therefore pollutes twice as much.
Title: Re: Soldering Temp / Fixing Trace
Post by: nilton61 on Dec 03, 2014, 01:31 pm
I remember seeing the same flawed arguments being presented in the debates regarding asbestos, unleaded fuel and so on.
Title: Re: Soldering Temp / Fixing Trace
Post by: ghlawrence2000 on Dec 03, 2014, 02:43 pm
Flawed? You are on something or work for the government right?

White asbestos tiles are still by far the best heat deflection/protection used in welding applications. Leaded fuel if you can find it is still superior for the extra octane available.

Go spread your propaganda to somebody that is gullible and only ever had experience of these new 'nasties' free versions of whatever crap you would like to quote! I am old enough to have experienced the original products myself, oh, car brake pads, unless you won the lottery and can afford carbon fibre brakes, cheaper pads were better with some good old asbestos in them too.....

Nobody is disputing these modern eco friendly replicas do what they say on the tin (almost), but the fact is the 100% full fat original cholesterol version was better!! Toluene and xylene based paints used to smell nicer and dried faster than the new versions, creosote mixed with carcinogenic used engine oil protected wooden fences for decades. I am amazed I am still living with all of those 'dangerous' substances I was born having access to that now are still available (for a price) if you know where to look! But for those of us that have been using leaded solder all our lives, lead-free is a poor substitute, and I simply don't care how much you try to persuade me I am imagining it!

This argument has no ending, those of us that know what we are talking about will continue to use lead, those of you that believe what you are told, do what you like! To quote the meerkat, simples.

Regards,

Graham
Title: Re: Soldering Temp / Fixing Trace
Post by: nilton61 on Dec 03, 2014, 03:02 pm
Remind me why the dinosaurs went extinct... lack of adaptation i think it was.
But the situation is in fact worse now, with more than 300 species going extinct each year (thats between 1000 and 1000 times the normal rate). Partly because of these substances, but mostly because of people opposing change.
All these arguments serve only one single purpose and that is resisting adaptation. And where that leads history tells us clearly, and that without exceptions.
Title: Re: Soldering Temp / Fixing Trace
Post by: ghlawrence2000 on Dec 03, 2014, 03:05 pm
Oh, ok, it has nothing to do with humans destroying their habitat and hunting them? Tell me? Do we now have eco friendly meteorites? I believe the dinosaurs were wiped out before they discovered lead free solder ;)? Go sprout your waffle to somebody that wants to listen.

G
Title: Re: Soldering Temp / Fixing Trace
Post by: nilton61 on Dec 03, 2014, 03:18 pm
It has everything to with humans destroying the planet. By humans impinging habitats, by humans using the substances mentioned, by humans polluting, by humans exploiting depleting all sorts of resources. One of these does not excuse the other and saying one is worse or more important is just stupid. All of these have to be dealt with. And that pretty fast.
But the worst thing by far is people opposing change when something can be done. There are simply no reasons for that except laziness, greed and stupidity.
Title: Re: Soldering Temp / Fixing Trace
Post by: ghlawrence2000 on Dec 03, 2014, 03:21 pm
Ad infinitum. Get over it. I didn't invent or perpetrate the industrial revolution, I just happened to be born at a time when the world of electronics was in full swing and included proper solder!

Cheers,

Graham
Title: Re: Soldering Temp / Fixing Trace
Post by: nilton61 on Dec 03, 2014, 03:30 pm
And now is another time. And its also time to address the issues created then. Get used to it
Title: Re: Soldering Temp / Fixing Trace
Post by: ghlawrence2000 on Dec 03, 2014, 03:45 pm
Banning the internal combustion and jet engines, burning of fossil fuels and mandating of contraception in Asia would reduce the impact on valuable resources more than me using a bit of lead in my solder.

I would prefer you went and implemented world peace and those other couple of points I mentioned before getting on your soap box and start telling me what I can and can't do in my own home in my own time! Give me a call when you have sorted those few points I mentioned then perhaps we can deal with this whole ecological ticking bomb that is my preference for leaded solder? ;)  :P  8)

Regards

Graham,

PS, by the way, you know santa is not real?
Title: Re: Soldering Temp / Fixing Trace
Post by: nilton61 on Dec 03, 2014, 03:52 pm
I cannot ban ICE's fossil fuels or a lot lot of other things (except indirectly by arguing and influencing). But that doesn't mean i can't do anything. Using lead free solder is something i can do among other things. And lead free solder works, no question about that. But it demands that you relearn and revise your practices. If that is such a hard thing to do i feel sorry.
Title: Re: Soldering Temp / Fixing Trace
Post by: ghlawrence2000 on Dec 03, 2014, 04:10 pm
You arrogant little sh*t. In my lifetime I have thus far used 2kg of 60/40 tin lead solder, I have just ordered another 500g, so my total lead footprint for work and hobby so far is 2.5kg. I suspect I will not need to buy any more, or if I do, another 500g at the most, so that would be an expected maximum of 3kg of solder in my whole life!

40% of 3kg is 1.2kg ok?

You might wish to cast a casual eye over global usage over the past few years since rohs was introduced. Look how well your argument stands up!! What impact does my hobby have? And if I want to continue using lead, I will be f***ed if you are telling me what I should and should not do. I have tried lead free solder, it is CRAP, you do what you like!! Now go and hug a different tree on a different forum.

Regards,

Graham
Title: Re: Soldering Temp / Fixing Trace
Post by: polymorph on Dec 03, 2014, 04:19 pm
Regarding leaded solder: Don't stick your fingers in your mouth, don't chew the solder. Wash your hands before eating and you'll be fine.

Regarding lead-free solder: The flux is actually a lot more active and as such, is a lot more of an irritant to your lungs and mucus membranes. And probably worse for you than the rosin flux (essentially pine resin) used in leaded solder.
Title: Re: Soldering Temp / Fixing Trace
Post by: KenF on Dec 03, 2014, 04:20 pm
I had to laugh at Heathrow airport.  I stepped outside to have a ciggy.  Standing there just outside the terminal building was a queue of black taxi cabs all with their engines running.  The air was thick with burned deisel, yet as I sparked up, some jobsworth comes over and says.  "Sorry sir this is a no smoking area" :)
Title: Re: Soldering Temp / Fixing Trace
Post by: ghlawrence2000 on Dec 03, 2014, 04:31 pm
Yes. And all those diesel particulates that are responsible for the huge rise in asthma and other respiratory problems that have occurred since I was little. I have breathed in no end of leaded solder flux fumes, and I smoked for 25+ years(stopped 18 months ago ;) ), I don't have asthma. Diesel engines pumping out TONS of CO and other crap is fine, but I can't state my preference for leaded solder? YEAH RIGHT.

Regards,

Graham
Title: Re: Soldering Temp / Fixing Trace
Post by: polymorph on Dec 03, 2014, 04:35 pm
One of the articles said that 80% of lead usage is in batteries.

FYI, an RoHS sticker does -not- mean no lead in a product. It simply means that it abides by the RoHS rules.

Illuminating presentation on the danger of flux smoke:
http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg248.pdf

Title: Re: Soldering Temp / Fixing Trace
Post by: Foggiest on Dec 03, 2014, 04:37 pm
Godda love how the eco-friendly lead-free flag is being waved, despite several times posting that lead free causes more pollution.

Progress is good when it is led by engineers, scientist, mathematicians etc.
Progress for the sake of blindly stumbling politicians following psuedo science and fashions, not so good.
Title: Re: Soldering Temp / Fixing Trace
Post by: Foggiest on Dec 03, 2014, 04:39 pm
Here's a numberone might pluck from the Air.
Back in the day, there was a mighty weapons system, of which 25% of was stricken with tin whiskers from...
You guessed it, lead free solder.
Title: Re: Soldering Temp / Fixing Trace
Post by: ghlawrence2000 on Dec 03, 2014, 04:39 pm
I know it is not especially healthy, but I figured since I actively chose to smoke cigarettes all those years, I had probably breathed worse then a bit of solder smoke occasionally  :smiley-razz: not to mention eco-friendly diesel fumes, you picks your poison as they say.

Graham
Title: Re: Soldering Temp / Fixing Trace
Post by: ghlawrence2000 on Dec 03, 2014, 04:49 pm
Here's a numberone might pluck from the Air.
Back in the day, there was a mighty weapons system, of which 25% of was stricken with tin whiskers from...
You guessed it, lead free solder.
THAT is why I have been unable to sleep recently?? Thank you foggiest!!  :smiley-wink:

Who would have thought an innocent question about poor soldering would meander so far along the save the planet path?

Graham
Title: Re: Soldering Temp / Fixing Trace
Post by: polymorph on Dec 03, 2014, 05:45 pm
I think solder smoke (actually, rosin vapor) is probably more immediately bad for you that tobacco smoke.
Title: Re: Soldering Temp / Fixing Trace
Post by: Foggiest on Dec 03, 2014, 05:47 pm
THAT is why I have been unable to sleep recently?? Thank you foggiest!!  :smiley-wink:

Who would have thought an innocent question about poor soldering would meander so far along the save the planet path?

Graham
Haha, glad to help ;)
Title: Re: Soldering Temp / Fixing Trace
Post by: ghlawrence2000 on Dec 03, 2014, 05:55 pm
I think solder smoke (actually, rosin vapor) is probably more immediately bad for you that tobacco smoke.
Yes, seriously, I am not making light of this issue. I am aware of the risks of rosin fumes, but it is important to mention a balanced argument in this thread for future reference and people that maybe not aware of the health risks!

Graham
Title: Re: Soldering Temp / Fixing Trace
Post by: Foggiest on Dec 03, 2014, 06:23 pm
Rosin smells so nice though... arggggggg *coughs* :P
Title: Re: Soldering Temp / Fixing Trace
Post by: KenF on Dec 03, 2014, 08:25 pm
Rosin smells so nice though... arggggggg *coughs* :P
TOTALLY!  I used to love the smell of creosote too, but you just cant get it now :(
Title: Re: Soldering Temp / Fixing Trace
Post by: ghlawrence2000 on Dec 04, 2014, 12:59 am
Rosin smells so nice though... arggggggg *coughs* :P

TOTALLY!  I used to love the smell of creosote too, but you just cant get it now :(
Professional contractors can still buy creosote, it is only us untrained hicks that are no longer allowed to buy it. It was one of the items I was referring to earlier when I said these things are still available(at a price).
Quote
The use of creosote as a wood preservative has been reviewed under the Biocidal Products Directive and the following inclusion decision has been taken link to external website. From 01 May 2013 wood preservatives containing creosote will need to be authorised for use in the EU. In the meantime national legislation will continue to apply, and creosote wood preservative products will continue to need approval under the Control of Pesticides Regulations (COPR) before they can be advertised, sold, supplied, stored or used in the UK.

Under COPR creosote containing products are approved for use in the UK by professionals as part of their work.
Where as it used to cost about £0.50/l it is now £2+/l. http://www.creosotesales.co.uk/products-page/ (http://www.creosotesales.co.uk/products-page/)
Was that the greed nilton referred to?
But the worst thing by far is people opposing change when something can be done. There are simply no reasons for that except laziness, greed and stupidity.
This is EXACTLY the same as what I was saying about my use of leaded solder, my impact on the environment in my entire life is likely to be far less than 2kg. How much creosote does one think that me as 1 single private individual might have used in my life if the choice was still available, compared with all professional tradespeople? Insignificant! Another success for team nilton.

It is only propaganda spread to the unsuspecting that know no different when they are told that products are dangerous and have been 'replaced' with eco alternatives. Sense and sensiblity and personal protective equipment wins over legislation every time in my opinion.

Viva la revolution! :smiley-cool:

Graham