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Community => Bar Sport => Topic started by: aphasia on Apr 29, 2015, 01:42 am

Title: Electric Shock Machine!
Post by: aphasia on Apr 29, 2015, 01:42 am
Okay, so now that I've gotten your attention... I've read a bunch of posts, differing topics and ideas, on this forum and on others-- and nobody wants to touch this subject with a 10-foot pole. 

I understand the legal and ethical dangers of advice in this area, and that there are major safety concerns.

It is BECAUSE of these concerns that I am seeking the advice of those much smarter than I. :) So understand that I have all of these thoughts at the forefront of my mind when asking for help on this.

I am looking for assistance in using an Arduino to safely create an electric shock against the skin.  There are many different applications (perhaps I'm masochistic in pursuing this, if so, whatever). 

For example, I once played a video game at an arcade based on Uncle Fester from the Munsters.  You had to hang on to two metal posts with your hands while a meter slowly lit up on the machine... the backdrop of the machine was a picture of Uncle Fester, and when the meter got to the top the lightbulb in his mouth lit up... all the while an electric shock in the two posts got stronger and stronger, uncomfortably so but not exactly painful.  The idea was to hold on as long as you could.
 
or...

TENS units for pain control.  I'm sure people are familiar with these.  I live with someone who suffers from chronic pain and we've tried the standard TENS units before to no effect... however a programmable one might be just the key, as the single constant effect hers had was more irritating that helpful.  She has often said one that pulsed or changed up some would have been better.  Plus, making one myself is a lot cheaper than buying these units. 

Most of the threads I've read revolved heavily around "why do you want to do this" and "if someone has a pacemaker or a heart condition..." etc.  So I want to be absolutely clear that I do not intend to do anything to anybody without their full and informed consent -- and likely, my experimentation is going to likely be just for myself. 

I am asking for help so that I don't hurt MYSELF. :) Much. Anyway. And I think also that IF other people are looking for answers to similar questions we (as a community) might actually be doing more harm than good by being so vague about the answers.  I've seen some REALLY sketchy ideas out there for ways to shock someone, and people ARE going to get hurt if they mess around without better knowledge... and just warning people not to mess around is about as effective as telling teenagers to just not have sex, instead of teaching them how to do it safely.

SO

Can anyone help?  I own an Arduino UNO and I understand that a TENS unit is basically a square wave generator... and I understand that the TONE function basically creates a square wave.  Can this be easily and safely scaled up? 

And how does this differ than a "shocking" sensation... or doesn't it?  Is it just a matter of voltage as to how "unpleasant" the feeling is? 

All comments welcome of course.  Please help!
Title: Re: Electric Shock Machine!
Post by: larryd on Apr 29, 2015, 02:18 am
I believe TENs is a voltage at ~ 80VDC.
Do you have access to a commercial unit to measure the frequencies evolved?
A very important part of TENs is the electrodes.
STIMCARE are self-adhesive electrodes, carbon FM electrodes are often used.

All that said, buy a unit that is certified.
Title: Re: Electric Shock Machine!
Post by: Greensprings on Apr 29, 2015, 02:25 am
use a car ignition coil
Title: Re: Electric Shock Machine!
Post by: Delta_G on Apr 29, 2015, 02:49 am
The problem isn't that I have some moral objection to helping you shock someone.  I really don't.  The problem is one of liability. If I help you build this and someone gets hurt, even unintentionally, it could end up coming back on me.  That's not a risk I'm willing to take without significant financial compensation.  Nobody wants to take on liability for free.  That would be incredibly stupid.
Title: Re: Electric Shock Machine!
Post by: DVDdoug on Apr 29, 2015, 02:52 am
The OSHA (https://www.osha.gov/SLTC/etools/construction/electrical_incidents/eleccurrent.html) website has some information about the effects of current on the human body (from a slight tingle to death).

I found one online source that says a taser is ~150mA.   Usually it's not lethal (and usually the current doesn't pass through the heart) but a few people have died.  (It's still safer than the .38 or .45 caliber alternative. ;) )

You need to control the current.   It's the current that you feel and it's the current that kills you.     As I different current levels.   It does depend on the current path through your body...  One amp between your thumb and finger probably won't kill you, but one amp from one hand to the other through your chest probably will kill you.

As I assume you know,  the relationship between voltage, current, and resistance is described by Ohm's Law.   Since the resistance of human skin is highly-variable your circuit needs current limiting, not just voltage control/regulation.

Quote
For example, I once played a video game at an arcade based on Uncle Fester from the Munsters.
I'm not sure you'll find such a machine today in the U.S. or Europe...  All it takes is someone with a weak heart or a pacemaker, or maybe an electrical fault, and you're broke and out of business.... and someone is dead!   

I believe the normal product safety standard is 50V maximum on any part that can be contacted by a user.  Under normal conditions 50V does not generate enough current to be felt.    If you can touch something and you feel the electricity, the device/product is probably illegal.
Title: Re: Electric Shock Machine!
Post by: zoomkat on Apr 29, 2015, 03:38 am
You could get the shock parts out of a shock pin like below. I got some a good while back and they have a noticeable shock to the hand. 

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_sacat=0&LH_BIN=1&_nkw=shock+pen&_sop=15 (http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_sacat=0&LH_BIN=1&_nkw=shock+pen&_sop=15)
Title: Re: Electric Shock Machine!
Post by: aphasia on Apr 29, 2015, 05:31 am
I feel as though this thread is already headed down the same path as others... CLEARLY there has to be a level at which people feel comfortable talking about safe ways to shock. 

Forget that I mentioned TENS -- I have a feeling that is a major issue and all are probably right, best to buy one.  So I'd like to talk instead about things like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mBMxKWTTD0

This is the Uncle Fester video game I mentioned.  These machines ARE still in use all over, perhaps not super popular but videos are popping up from just a year or two ago on YouTube showing this machine in use.  Again, its a MILD shock at best, but combined with the psychological aspects of the sound and lights etc the "pain" feels more and more intense as the shocks build.  But again, this is a GAME that the makers are clearly NOT WORRIED about killing anyone with.  Surely shocks of this nature are safe enough to talk about?

How about this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgmcNjsvRzk

This is another commercially produced and sold ENTERTAINMENT item... and the makers clearly again not worried about hurting anyone. 

So, how do you recon the best way is to produce COMPLETELY HARMLESS and just otherwise surprising shock effects, simply?  Something that obviously is enough to be felt, enough to be unpleasant, but not anything dangerous in the least...?

Ideas?
Title: Re: Electric Shock Machine!
Post by: JimboZA on Apr 29, 2015, 06:27 am
there has to be  a level at which people feel comfortable talking about safe ways to shock. 
My emphasis... and there's the false premise. Why would there be?
Title: Re: Electric Shock Machine!
Post by: zoomkat on Apr 29, 2015, 06:41 am
Quote
So, how do you recon the best way is to produce COMPLETELY HARMLESS and just otherwise surprising shock effects, simply?  Something that obviously is enough to be felt, enough to be unpleasant, but not anything dangerous in the least...?
If you can figure this out on your own, then you probably shouldn't be doing it. Quit the whining and do some research on your own.
Title: Re: Electric Shock Machine!
Post by: AWOL on Apr 29, 2015, 08:40 am
Quote
I once played a video game at an arcade based on Uncle Fester from the Munsters
Perhaps Fester's surname might give you a clue that you've got the wrong sit-com.

I'm moving this to Bar Sport - it clearly has nothing at all to do with Arduino.
Title: Re: Electric Shock Machine!
Post by: aphasia on Apr 29, 2015, 07:15 pm
I brought this to the Arduino forum because I was looking for input into ways the Arduino could be used in projects that utilize this effect-- specifically that it would be useful as a square wave generator-- but I am very confused and rather frustrated that somehow this is a taboo subject.

No, I clearly do not know what I need to know about electronics and electrical theory and yes, I have much learning and reading to do.

I had hoped that the folks of this forum could be part of that process.  I'm accused of whining?  Thanks for making a new person feel welcome.

If there were more information around on this subject in a clear and understandable form for someone like myself to read -- I'd go there. But since everyone is so oddly touchy about this that kind of information isn't available. That's why I thought (gasp) that asking and explaining could help.

I'm still eager to hear from anyone who is willing to help me out. Maybe a private message would be better? 

Very unpleasant experience using this forum so far.
Title: Re: Electric Shock Machine!
Post by: AWOL on Apr 29, 2015, 07:20 pm
Quote
specifically that it would be useful as a square wave generator
Try a 555

Quote
I am very confused and rather frustrated that somehow this is a taboo subject.
Because the chances of things going wrong are high, and no-one wants that on their rap sheet.

Seriously, grow up.
Title: Re: Electric Shock Machine!
Post by: aphasia on Apr 29, 2015, 07:25 pm
Btw AWOL, yes-- I was an idiot and said Munsters instead of the Addams Family.  It was a mistake but hardly changes the meat of the subject.
Title: Re: Electric Shock Machine!
Post by: aphasia on Apr 29, 2015, 07:27 pm
My emphasis... and there's the false premise. Why would there be?
Yes. Clearly I was mistaken.

We'll go with the "abstinence works" approach.
Title: Re: Electric Shock Machine!
Post by: AWOL on Apr 29, 2015, 07:30 pm
Btw AWOL, yes-- I was an idiot and said Munsters instead of the Addams Family.  It was a mistake but hardly changes the meat of the subject.
well, if you can't get a simple thing like that right (and that is easily googlable), imagine how likely you are to screw up your shocker.
Title: Re: Electric Shock Machine!
Post by: aphasia on Apr 29, 2015, 07:35 pm
Seriously, grow up.
Let no one ask why you can't ask why ever again.

Thanks again for the kindness.
Title: Re: Electric Shock Machine!
Post by: aphasia on Apr 29, 2015, 07:44 pm
well, if you can't get a simple thing like that right (and that is easily googlable), imagine how likely you are to screw up your shocker.
Hey, I get Matt Damon and Mark Walberg visually mixed up in my head too-- you want to fault me for referencing the wrong stupid tv show? The next time you have a conversation with somebody and you swear it was Actor X who starred in that movie when it was really Actor Y-- I hope someone treats you like an idiot.

I'm not an idiot, thanks. And there's a difference between making a careless mistake about something trivial you know doesn't really matter and taking your time getting something just right when the stakes are different. Don't you think?
Title: Re: Electric Shock Machine!
Post by: nickgammon on Apr 30, 2015, 08:20 am
To be fair to the OP you can buy things like that:

http://www.jaycar.com.au/General-Consumer/Toys-%26-Games/Specialty-Games-%26-Toys/NOVELTY-SHOCKING-ROULETTE-PLAST-SLV/p/GH1092 (http://www.jaycar.com.au/General-Consumer/Toys-%26-Games/Specialty-Games-%26-Toys/NOVELTY-SHOCKING-ROULETTE-PLAST-SLV/p/GH1092)

Disclaimer on their site:

Quote
Caution: Do not use if you suffer from epilipsy, have a pacemaker, heart condition or similar illness, or while pregnant.
However once again I would ask myself not "how well will this work?" but "how badly can it fail?".

Especially if you are trying to get into "edgy" shocks, you might find that one day your skin is moister than usual, and you get a fatal, or at least dangerous, shock.

Or you might show it off to a friend who unknown to you (or even him or her) has a heart condition, and drops dead in front of you.
Title: Re: Electric Shock Machine!
Post by: aphasia on May 02, 2015, 04:21 am
However once again I would ask myself not "how well will this work?" but "how badly can it fail?".

Well, I just thought -- having seen plenty of people asking the same kinds of questions (and frankly, getting horribly dangerous advice) -- that it might be a good chance to put forth some safer information.  I thought the teenage abstinence analogy was best, but that fell on deaf ears. 

I just figure I'm NOT the only one looking into this, why can't somebody step up and help out by (add disclaimers wherever you want) talking about the safest ways to do things like this, since its going to be done anyway...

...And without good guidance (as with teenage liaisons) it WILL end up being done unsafely.  I know, as I've said, I've been looking at other forums and seeing where people ARE giving advice and a lot of it even I can tell is horrible and dangerous. 

I thought this forum might be different, especially tying into the Arduino for control of the project, and I thought maybe some sensible advice might come forth.
Title: Re: Electric Shock Machine!
Post by: nickgammon on May 02, 2015, 05:20 am
Ah yes, I thought we were giving sensible advice.

You could conceivably buy one of those products I mentioned, and measure what voltage and current it is delivering.

Check out this video by Afrotechmods: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xONZcBJh5A (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xONZcBJh5A)

Quote
"It's not the volts that kill you, it's the amps"
(Not).
Title: Re: Electric Shock Machine!
Post by: JimboZA on May 02, 2015, 08:22 am
people ARE giving advice and a lot of it even I can tell is horrible and dangerous. 

I thought this forum might be different, ..... and I thought maybe some sensible advice might come forth.
It is different, in that you are getting sensible advice, the most sensible advice there is: don't do this project.
Title: Re: Electric Shock Machine!
Post by: JimboZA on May 02, 2015, 01:39 pm
Maybe you should start an Arduino group at Fetlife (https://fetlife.com).....
Title: Re: Electric Shock Machine!
Post by: larryd on May 02, 2015, 06:45 pm
Now how did you know about that Jim?   :smiley-eek:
Title: Re: Electric Shock Machine!
Post by: JimboZA on May 02, 2015, 06:51 pm
Now how did you know about that Jim?   :smiley-eek:
Through a friend.....
Title: Re: Electric Shock Machine!
Post by: larryd on May 02, 2015, 07:01 pm
 ;)
Title: Re: Electric Shock Machine!
Post by: nickgammon on May 02, 2015, 11:52 pm
Maybe you should start an Arduino group at Fetlife (https://fetlife.com).....
Wow. And this is good:

Quote
We have a fetish for security. That's why we're the first social network to be 100% SSL.
Title: Re: Electric Shock Machine!
Post by: closetgeek on Mar 20, 2019, 01:12 am
I think it's fair to say that regardless of the OPs original intentions, intelligence, capabilities etc that you're right not to throw such information on a public forum. But I personally wonder how dangerous the basic concept really is apart from the possibility of an adolescent/idiot upping power input or other modification due to ignorance (or wonton stupidity). Are there actual statistics available that document injury caused by these devices? Where do we sperate facts from urban legend on this topic?
Title: Re: Electric Shock Machine!
Post by: closetgeek on Mar 20, 2019, 02:55 am
https://youtu.be/Z2n8u1nQg7I?t=48 (https://youtu.be/Z2n8u1nQg7I?t=47)
54 seconds in is somewhat disturbing yet a perfect example of how these things can go seriously wrong outside of someones intentions.
Title: Re: Electric Shock Machine!
Post by: ardly on Mar 20, 2019, 12:38 pm
Use a Van de Graaf generator for a few hundred thousand volts, not much can go wrong.
Title: Re: Electric Shock Machine!
Post by: Qdeathstar on Mar 21, 2019, 02:11 am
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DTXmYAVbCr8 (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DTXmYAVbCr8)

big clive
Title: Re: Electric Shock Machine!
Post by: Paul_KD7HB on Mar 21, 2019, 04:13 am
What is the big deal with shocking? Go buy an electric fence charger and be done with it. Harbor Freight used to sell a battery operated one that was solar charged. By law, they have to limit the current and have to be pulsed, like once per second. Hurts like hell, but not fatal. You don't want to do it on purpose, but accidentally can remind you where the fence wire is hiding.

Paul
Title: Re: Electric Shock Machine!
Post by: ardly on Mar 21, 2019, 04:18 pm
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DTXmYAVbCr8 (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DTXmYAVbCr8)

big clive
WTF ! For a moment I though Big Clive was going to demonstrate the "hand massager".
I liked the comment "I'll just check these resistors because when I plug this in to the mains my life will depend on them".

Taser mines are the way to go though;
https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn3650-non-lethal-landmine-zaps-intruders-with-50000-volts/
Title: Re: Electric Shock Machine!
Post by: Qdeathstar on Mar 23, 2019, 05:13 pm
Hmm, well, he does have a members only channel...