Arduino Forum

General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: atuor on Dec 28, 2015, 03:48 pm

Title: 'Arduino' overview
Post by: atuor on Dec 28, 2015, 03:48 pm
Hi all,
With all the legal confusion around  :o  , is there any document or site where the information is gathered about who is who and so ?
I'm mainly asking myself questions like :

Who manufactures the Genuino boards for Europe ?
Who designed the latest boards like the Zero, 101 ? cc, org, other  ? Because both sell them
When can we expect to have a clear situation about the ongoing trial ?

Moreover, @ cc there is no distributor for Switzerland, and my regular shop is really confused too, thinking he is buying cc, but people from org told him that they are taking over and cc will disappear !? Where can he source cc products ?

If anyone has a link with such infos, would be great
Thanks
Title: Re: 'Arduino' overview
Post by: westfw on Dec 29, 2015, 04:40 am
Quote
Who designed the latest boards like the Zero, 101 ? cc, org, other  ? Because both sell them
The cc Zero and org Zero ("Zero Pro") are subtly different, IIRC.  Both seem to have been designed mostly at Atmel (though I'm not sure that that means anything.) (one appears to be a "slightly more recent" version of the other.)
I don't see .org having the "Arduino 101"?  "Arduino Industrial 101" (from .org) is a VERY different product than "Arduino 101" (intel-based thing from .cc, designed by Intel (presumably.))

Quote
When can we expect to have a clear situation about the ongoing trial ?
Is there a trial yet?  These things can drag on for years.

It's pretty clear that both sides are trying to establish themselves as THE preferred supplier of "things arduino", even if that means name changes and completely separate product lines, software, and distribution networks, rather than coming to any resolution of differences. :-(

Title: Re: 'Arduino' overview
Post by: SurfingDude on Dec 29, 2015, 06:05 pm
Is there a trial yet?  These things can drag on for years.

The last news I saw on it is that it might go down sometime after July 15, 2016:
https://www.unitedstatescourts.org/federal/mad/167131/

Don't hold your breath though, there's still a matter of jury selection and trial, then any appeals can delay it further.
Title: Re: 'Arduino' overview
Post by: pYro_65 on Dec 29, 2015, 06:09 pm
That is good there is a jury in my opinion. Hopefully common sense will prevail (not so common anymore).
Title: Re: 'Arduino' overview
Post by: atuor on Dec 29, 2015, 06:42 pm
So who actually manufactures the Genuino (cc) boards in Europe ?

I can't find a distributor in Switzerland... :smiley-confuse:
Title: Re: 'Arduino' overview
Post by: Robin2 on Dec 29, 2015, 08:56 pm
All the Arduinos I have are official versions (bought before the dispute).

If the Arduino clowns can't get their act together that seems like an excellent reason just to ignore them and buy a clone.

...R
Title: Re: 'Arduino' overview
Post by: CrossRoads on Dec 29, 2015, 09:56 pm
They're effectively fighting an internal hostile takeover. Calling them clowns is pretty petty.
Title: Re: 'Arduino' overview
Post by: Robin2 on Dec 29, 2015, 10:40 pm
They're effectively fighting an internal hostile takeover. Calling them clowns is pretty petty.
I doubt if anyone (including the insiders) really knows the truth of the whole thing - or even if there is a simple truth (or right and wrong).

Anyone who prefers to make lawyers rich rather than settle his differences is a clown in my book.

...R
Title: Re: 'Arduino' overview
Post by: 68tjs on Dec 30, 2015, 12:24 am
I doubt if anyone (including the insiders) really knows the truth of the whole thing - or even if there is a simple truth (or right and wrong).
+1
Meanwhile Atmel joins the Mbed project and offers four Xplained boards :
- SAMD21
- SAML21
- SAMR21
- SAMW25
What will happen if, because of the internal war, Atmel stop to support Arduino and switches completely to MBed ?

Arduino LLC will switch to Intel ?
Title: Re: 'Arduino' overview
Post by: westfw on Dec 30, 2015, 03:14 am
Probably the most harmful part of the conflict IS that vendors are deserting BOTH arduino companies in favor of less contentious (albeit smaller) manufacturing alternatives.  Sparkfun "redboard."  Adafruit "metro."  Atmel's "Xplained mini."  They're all pretty much Uno clones.  And then there are the clones and derivatives from vendors who are less likely to be supporting either Arduino.org or Arduino.cc...

Just when core and IDE development was heating up to a significant output rate, and has a good team put together, I'm not sure that there is a funding model in place to support them.
Title: Re: 'Arduino' overview
Post by: dmjlambert on Dec 30, 2015, 05:56 am
It would be nice if arduino.cc would take Genuino worldwide and make it easy for vendors to buy some stock.   It seems like there would be money to be made if the holes in the product lineup were filled in.  For example, Adafruit is out of Micros and their web site still has old stock pictures of the product from before the company split.   

I think there would be plenty of profit and sales if the Micro, and Uno were all priced at a new low price of $18 USD, Nano at $11, and the Pro Mini at $7, and bring the Pro Micro into the official Arduino lineup at $7 too.   Rev 4 of the Uno and of the Nano could be CH340G designs and bring that chip into the family officially.   Just start producing the products in larger volumes and make it available.   

Other open designs could be brought into the family officially and blessed with the Genuino trademark, such as the Beetle and Bobuino (is that open?).   

I would buy an Arduino/Genuino sticker or T-shirt if the store had them.   A single $6 sticker sounds like a good deal to me and would like mighty fine on my truck, and would support the software cause. 

The online store can be improved and be made easier to click and buy, plus arduino.cc can sell through Amazon as a marketplace seller just like arduino.org does.   Arrangements could be made through some vendor like Cafe Press for T-Shirts, mugs, and stuff like that.   I wonder if arduino.cc could just start shaking things up?  Get going.  Perhaps it is damned difficult.   I don't know.


Title: Re: 'Arduino' overview
Post by: Robin2 on Dec 30, 2015, 12:02 pm
I agree with @westfw's Reply #9

It would be nice if arduino.cc would take Genuino worldwide
This involves taking one side in the argument, and I have absolutely no idea which side (if any) is "right"

And my impression of the dispute is that it is essentially an argument between half a dozen or so individuals who have fallen out and divided into two camps. In that situation I doubt if any of them is taking any notice of "the big picture".

Maybe I should be refreshing my PIC skills. I have several unused PIC MCUs in a drawer.

...R
Title: Re: 'Arduino' overview
Post by: atuor on Dec 30, 2015, 12:29 pm
Well this quote really seems appropriate in the current situation

"A lack of transparency results in distrust and a deep sense of insecurity."

Dalai Lama

Title: Re: 'Arduino' overview
Post by: Robin2 on Dec 30, 2015, 12:52 pm
Well this quote really seems appropriate in the current situation

"A lack of transparency results in distrust and a deep sense of insecurity."

Dalai Lama
I suspect there are very few situations in life where that is not appropriate.

...R
Title: Re: 'Arduino' overview
Post by: atuor on Dec 30, 2015, 02:01 pm
I suspect there are very few situations in life where that is not appropriate.

...R
Definitely  :)
Title: Re: 'Arduino' overview
Post by: 68tjs on Dec 30, 2015, 03:22 pm
@dmjlambert (http://"http://\"http://forum.arduino.cc/index.php?action=profile;u=376297"")

You do not give technical advice but an partisant opinion,even sentimental.
The future of two Arduinos is not in feeling but in the technique  :
right product at the right time, at the right cost and with right support.

So when you can see that they don't develop Zero nor Galileo nor Edison and  probably nor 101.
When you can see that Intel propose is own IDE (Eclipse based), stay on the only emotional support is not to serve  Arduino LCC neither Arduino  SRL.

At a time of transition where you have to mix circuits powered by 3.3V or 5V, choose Atmel ARM IC which are not five Volts tolerant  is a huge mistake.
It is those who report the errors that love the Arduino, those who are silent or find that all is well does not render service Arduino.
In french we say " Qui aime bien ,chatie bien".
Google translation (without guaranties) : Who loves well chatises as well.

Title: Re: 'Arduino' overview
Post by: dmjlambert on Dec 30, 2015, 07:47 pm
I'm afraid I don't really understand much of your post, perhaps it is the language difference.  This topic is not technical, and I don't know if I'm sentimental or not.  I just would like arduino.cc to sell Genuino boards and stickers in greater volume and through more outlets.   And I think they should firmly establish more of a hardware brand presence.  If they are allowed to use the Arduino brand in the US, that would be fine, but they should also just offer the Genuino brand in the US as well.  I doubt there would be a significant chance of a Genuino board being a counterfeit, and there would be some money to be made by arduino.cc to support the software side of the house.  I like the IDE from this site and I like contributing technical support.  The OP appears interested in getting Genuino through a distributor.  Sounds good to me.  I am mostly interested in AVR technology, and only slightly interested in ARM.  For ARM, the Teensy boards and Raspberry Pi Zero are interesting. 
Title: Re: 'Arduino' overview
Post by: 68tjs on Dec 30, 2015, 08:30 pm
If Arduino LLC  changed to Genuino this would mean that Arduino LCC accept that Arduino SRL won.
 Never Arduino LLC will  accept, and they have no reason to accept.


Quote
For ARM, the Teensy boards and Raspberry Pi Zero are interesting. 
Are they Five volts tolerant ? For me it is mandatory.
Personally I prefer STM32 micro-controler, lib arduino does not exist except for one  model : STM32F103 but you have more than a dozen of different boards you can program with mbed .
You could find boards (STM32-F103 ) on Ebay at less than 5$.
You have a clone of mapple and an original product design from ST-Micro documentation so it is not a clone.
Title: Re: 'Arduino' overview
Post by: Robin2 on Dec 30, 2015, 09:43 pm
Never Arduino LLC will  accept,
I can well believe that. It has been the downfall of many who thought the courts could not possibly disagree with them.

Quote
and they have no reason to accept.
What about common sense ?

...R
Title: Re: 'Arduino' overview
Post by: westfw on Dec 31, 2015, 02:03 am
Quote
I'm afraid I don't really understand much of your post
I think he's saying that he doesn't like the "direction" that either arduino company is headed (3V ARMs and x86s that aren't very compatible.)  And that for all it's popularity, Arduino has never really been particularly unique or innovative, and there are other alternatives out there.

I dunno.  No one else seems to have the discipline to stay simple.  MBED is probably closest, and it looks like they're getting an OS and becoming IoT-focused.  The latest TI Launchpad (MSP432) runs an RTOS, even with Energia.  They're all 3.3V  The ARMs are winning hearts and minds, but 5V is rare, complexity is high, and "simple" systems like Arduino don't show off the features that vendors want shown off.  Meanwhile, vendor libraries suck, usually having all the performance impact of an Arduino library with none of the simplicity, and no attempt at cross-platform compatibility.

Sigh.

Title: Re: 'Arduino' overview
Post by: Robin2 on Dec 31, 2015, 11:25 am
No one else seems to have the discipline to stay simple.
Well said.
It seems to be contrary to human nature. Other species of animal seem to have no problem.

I believe the problem is caused by people having time on their hands after they sign-off version 1.

"Gee, I'm bored, what can I do?  I know, let's make a version 2"

Think how unlikely it is for a bridge engineer to retire after completing his first bridge.

...R
Title: Re: 'Arduino' overview
Post by: ChrisTenone on Jan 03, 2016, 11:22 am
It would be nice if arduino.cc would take Genuino worldwide and make it easy for vendors to buy some stock.   It seems like there would be money to be made if the holes in the product lineup were filled in.  For example, Adafruit is out of Micros and their web site still has old stock pictures of the product from before the company split.  

I think there would be plenty of profit and sales if the Micro, and Uno were all priced at a new low price of $18 USD, Nano at $11, and the Pro Mini at $7, and bring the Pro Micro into the official Arduino lineup at $7 too.   ...
I agree and said so (http://"http://\"http://forum.arduino.cc/index.php?topic=330999.msg2521664#msg2521664"") a little while back. The price roll-back would be welcomed by consumers (me especially!) but I doubt the manufacturers (Adafruit & Sparkfun in the US, right?) would be that thrilled.

This lawsuit could be the demise of "Arduino" as a hardware brand. Soon it'll become "xeroxed" - that is, the (uncapitalized) word arduino meaning any board or circuit that incorporates an 8 bit Atmel device. I already refer to my trinkets, tinyduinos and osepp clones as well as real Arduinos and naked chips as "arduinos" in class (shame on me, I know, but, oh well. As a cc teacher {community college} I need to use language my students can hear*.)

If .cc wants to hold onto the name in the US, I would suggest copyright on the software, and the three boards already in domestic production. Let the name go in the rest of the world, and concentrate on the software. Who here would pay for the IDE? I would if it were ported to iPad and Android for sure, but for what we already have for free? ... 1.6.5 is good enough, right? I think they would have greater world-wide penetration with the Genuino name. And that would keep the free software and boards as well.

I'm not a business strategist, so they would need to balance the Arduino vs Genuino 'take-home', but I still believe Genuino could displace Arduino if marketed correctly.



* apologies to the Smashing Pumpkins (http://"https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwj-stegtY3KAhUDxWMKHT7tAMYQtwIIMjAE&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DAYSbztCCTlA&usg=AFQjCNHtzuhHHnTWMPo_rmXEaIPTnfWKdg&sig2=3eGg4tpEVWPINk5GuVhgMw").
Title: Re: 'Arduino' overview
Post by: ChrisTenone on Jan 03, 2016, 11:33 am
... Maybe I should be refreshing my PIC skills. I have several unused PIC MCUs in a drawer.

...R
I'm all for that Robin! Microchip's headquarters and manufacturing plants are less than a mile from me, and they pay big bucks (as does Intel - directly across Rural Rd.) into the tax base that supports my kid's schools. (I'm not a fan of their microprocessors, but) GO PIC!
ps, unused is fine. $$s is $$s.
Title: Re: 'Arduino' overview
Post by: Robin2 on Jan 03, 2016, 01:47 pm
This lawsuit could be the demise of "Arduino" as a hardware brand.
That seems very likely. I took a snapshot of the Forum index page about a week ago so I can compare it in 12 months time - I would not be surprised to see it fizzle out and customer attention switch elsewhere.


Quote
ps, unused is fine. $$s is $$s.
LOL.  I appreciate the naked animal greed  :)    even if humanity would be much better off without it.

...R