Arduino Forum

Community => Bar Sport => Topic started by: newguitar on Feb 05, 2018, 12:48 pm

Title: ARDUINO + Ship automation
Post by: newguitar on Feb 05, 2018, 12:48 pm
Can it be used in arduino ship automation by using appropriate equipment?
Title: Re: ARDUINO + Ship automation
Post by: soundfx on Feb 05, 2018, 02:38 pm
If there's a job accident.
ARDUINO card malfunctioned. Machine Manufacturer is a guilty.
SIEMENS plc  malfunctioned. Machine Manufacturer is not guilty.
Title: Re: ARDUINO + Ship automation
Post by: newguitar on Feb 05, 2018, 08:45 pm
There are no penalties for Siemens :)
Title: Re: ARDUINO + Ship automation
Post by: Robin2 on Feb 05, 2018, 10:27 pm
There are no penalties for Siemens :)
I think it would be more correct to say
"There are no penalties for using Siemens PLCs as part of a machine"

If Siemens screws up they will face penalties also. But they can more easily afford them than you can. Perhaps more importantly, Siemens (and similar large firms) can afford lawyers.

...R
Title: Re: ARDUINO + Ship automation
Post by: Paul_KD7HB on Feb 05, 2018, 10:37 pm
I think it would be more correct to say
"There are no penalties for using Siemens PLCs as part of a machine"

If Siemens screws up they will face penalties also. But they can more easily afford them than you can. Perhaps more importantly, Siemens (and similar large firms) can afford lawyers.

...R
And Siemens can and does spend millions to ensure their products work properly.

Paul
Title: Re: ARDUINO + Ship automation
Post by: wvmarle on Feb 06, 2018, 06:42 am
This is not a Siemens vs. Arduino issue. It's a "commercial, off the shelf" vs. "homebrew" issue.

Homebrew can very well be just as reliable as off the shelf. Atmel's processors are for sure used in lots of such commercial products, maybe even in the Siemens ones. It's all about the testing that goes into certifying a product to be safe, and determining the limits of what it can do.

Siemens will be able to give a guarantee that their product works within certain limits, and can give you exactly the specified limits and approved use cases. Will you be able to do the same for your Arduino based product?

It also of course depends on whether it's for automation of your yacht, a simple autopilot that lets you sit back and relax, or whether it's to be sold as an autopilot for a ship where the sole sailor wants to be able to go to sleep while the boat pilots itself, or for an autopilot on a large container carrier - in other words, the consequences of the system failing.
Title: Re: ARDUINO + Ship automation
Post by: TomGeorge on Feb 06, 2018, 08:49 am
And Siemens can and does spend millions to ensure their products work properly.

Paul
Siemens have safety features that not only monitor software but hardware failures.
Tom.. :)
Title: Re: ARDUINO + Ship automation
Post by: ardly on Feb 06, 2018, 03:55 pm
Can it be used in arduino ship automation by using appropriate equipment?
What sort of ship are you talking about and what aspect of its operation are you wanting to automate?
Title: Re: ARDUINO + Ship automation
Post by: newguitar on Feb 09, 2018, 11:18 am
Machine
Heat-Pressure-tank level.........
Alarm
Title: Re: ARDUINO + Ship automation
Post by: wilfredmedlin on Feb 09, 2018, 11:27 am
Siemens have safety features that not only monitor software but hardware failures.
Tom.. :)
Anyone "could" do that if they had the inclination: the purchaser of any such system will want to see as an absolute minimum that such things are built in,

The purchaser would also insist that the manufacturer's quality system is robust enough to assure quality. Implicit in that, and in fact often explicit, is that the final system manufacturer's quality system imposes similar requirements on their suppliers' suppliers' suppliers.

In know that the Atmel datasheet explicitly precludes automotive and medical use; I wonder what they would have to say about marine?

Title: Re: ARDUINO + Ship automation
Post by: wilfredmedlin on Feb 09, 2018, 11:29 am
Machine
Heat-Pressure-tank level.........
Alarm
WTF does that even mean?
Title: Re: ARDUINO + Ship automation
Post by: wvmarle on Feb 09, 2018, 11:31 am
What to automate about the machine?
What to automate about your tank?
What alarms, and how would they be raised?

In know that the Atmel datasheet explicitly precludes automotive and medical use;
They don't exclude all medical uses, just those that have to do with life support (exact wording see data sheet).
Title: Re: ARDUINO + Ship automation
Post by: wilfredmedlin on Feb 09, 2018, 11:35 am
They don't exclude all medical uses, just those that have to do with life support (exact wording see data sheet).
Correct, but for the purposes of this discussion a hair which I didn't bother to split.

(That said, I'd be keen to see a later Atmel-as-Microchip datasheet; mine's dated 10/09 (not sure if that's October 2009 or September 2010, but it's quite old either way.)

Title: Re: ARDUINO + Ship automation
Post by: wilfredmedlin on Feb 09, 2018, 11:38 am
What to automate about the machine?
What to automate about your tank?
What alarms, and how would they be raised?
And presumably there is something shippy enough about all that to warrant mentioning it's in a ship not a factory. So perhaps an aggressive marine environment?

Title: Re: ARDUINO + Ship automation
Post by: wvmarle on Feb 09, 2018, 11:52 am
Of course, didn't even get to the part of how to keep it working and so. That's a whole different aspect of the project. Keeping the water (and if on the sea, salt) out, stable and reliable power supply, structural integrity of the final build, robust wiring (if it's a steel ship, wireless is out), etc.

It seems OP has no idea of what they actually want to do, though. Or they'd be able to come with more info.
Title: Re: ARDUINO + Ship automation
Post by: wilfredmedlin on Feb 09, 2018, 12:02 pm
Not to mention intrinsic safety / flashproof-ness if the tank contents and or its fumes are dangerous.

Title: Re: ARDUINO + Ship automation
Post by: dave-in-nj on Feb 09, 2018, 12:55 pm
as you can see, a hobby device should never be used in a life-safety application. 
if you want to know a tank level,  simple.   the hard part is to get the appropriate sensor.    the EXACT same sensor as a Siemens PLC would use ?   

heat ?  we do it all the time.   we can even control to a higher resolution that a Siemens PLC,  IF we use better sensors.

pressure, same thing,  if we use better sensors, we can resolve higher accuracy, if we use the same sensors, maybe not.   we could use a 24bit ADC to their 16 bit....

alarm, we do all day long.  no problems there.  we can sound the same alarm as the Siemens.

as for the word 'ship' is that as in packaging ? or boat ?
for use on the high seas.  if your alarm fails in the middle of the pacific, you are not getting new parts till you reach the dock, don't care whose stuff you use.

[ I do not think the Edmund Fitzgerald used Arduinos ]

"CAN" it be used ?  I would not be surprised if you found a Siemens PLC that uses a Atmel328 chip, so the same model chip, but if you look at a LM317 'power supply' and your computer power supply, there are a LOT more bits in it.
the I/O cards on commercial stuff are one good step above hobby stuff.  look at any Honeywell alarm device.  but the Industrial stuff are 10 steps more robust, more secure, etc.

when you look at resistors, 100 for $1 and then others, similar resistors, 10 for $1 or $1 each,  you may wonder who buys that stuff ?   the guys who know that failure is not an option and design around it.

Yes, some do use hobby stuff for industrial applications,  there was a post on here about a guy using it for oil well drilling.  said the crew got pssed when it failed, lost hours each time it had to re-start the drill.  something about self tuning the drilling so it had to drill for a bit to get data to fine tune itself to drill faster....

if you want to piggy-back a data logger and send alerts out, that would be a good way to startt
Title: Re: ARDUINO + Ship automation
Post by: wilfredmedlin on Feb 09, 2018, 01:00 pm
OP's not the one who brought up Siemens btw: that was soundfx in #1.

So comparison of Atmel to Siemens might by irrelevant.

Title: Re: ARDUINO + Ship automation
Post by: dave-in-nj on Feb 09, 2018, 01:14 pm
OP's not the one who brought up Siemens btw: that was soundfx in #1.

So comparison of Atmel to Siemens might by irrelevant.


yes and no.
the concept of a silicon chip as the heart, 
both can use the same basic part
final cost to customer, not the same.
the supporting circuitry is the key.
two resistors =  voltage reference for ADC by voltage dividers
precision voltage reference ?   not the same.
does it make any difference when watering your plants ?
as for the question if this thread jumped track onto legal protection when it might be for a coffee maker on a fishing trawler ?   dunno....
Title: Re: ARDUINO + Ship automation
Post by: TomGeorge on Feb 09, 2018, 02:07 pm
Hi,

How big is the ship?
Fullscale, model? ? ? ? ?

Thanks.. Tom.. :)
Title: Re: ARDUINO + Ship automation
Post by: Robin2 on Feb 09, 2018, 05:43 pm
So comparison of Atmel to Siemens might by irrelevant.
I believe the intended comparison was between a home-brew Arduino solution and a Siemens PLC - not between Atmel and Siemens.

And I have no doubt that other brands of PLC would be just as satisfactory as Siemens' products.

...R
Title: Re: ARDUINO + Ship automation
Post by: wilfredmedlin on Feb 10, 2018, 04:30 am
Nice photo, OP.... but why did you post it?

Do you want to replace that whole console with something run off an Arduino? (Looks like it says PCC- Pump Control Centre maybe?)

It's time you described exactly what you want to do. It's been fun kicking some thoughts around, but frankly it's just a waste of everyone's time.

Start by explaining exactly what this means:

Machine
Heat-Pressure-tank level.........
Alarm
Title: Re: ARDUINO + Ship automation
Post by: SteevyT on Feb 10, 2018, 06:56 am
Why was Siemens the first PLC mentioned?

Why not Allen Bradley?
Title: Re: ARDUINO + Ship automation
Post by: TomGeorge on Feb 10, 2018, 07:35 am
Why was Siemens the first PLC mentioned?

Why not Allen Bradley?
First comes to mind..... Siemens, Allen Bradley, Unitronics, IFM....
Allen Bradley same situation, high end safety oriented PLC systems.

Seimens used as an industrail PLC compared as example to Arduino, Pi, Banana, Propeller and others

Tom... :)
Title: Re: ARDUINO + Ship automation
Post by: Robin2 on Feb 10, 2018, 09:56 am
Maybe the OP is trying to make a simulator for playing at "skipper" while safely on dry land. An Arduino would be fine for that.

But it would be nice if he would take the trouble to tell us.

...R
Title: Re: ARDUINO + Ship automation
Post by: newguitar on Feb 11, 2018, 07:43 am
(https://www.selco.com/selco2016/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/M3000.jpg)
(https://selcousa.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/M1000.jpg)
(http://img.nauticexpo.com/images_ne/photo-g/36035-11178097.jpg)

https://www.selco.com/products/alarm-monitoring/m3000-analogue-alarm-monitor/ (https://www.selco.com/products/alarm-monitoring/m3000-analogue-alarm-monitor/)

https://www.selmacontrol.com/water-ingress-alarm-system/ (https://www.selmacontrol.com/water-ingress-alarm-system/)
http://www.controltechnic.com/alarm-units (http://www.controltechnic.com/alarm-units)
Title: Re: ARDUINO + Ship automation
Post by: Robin2 on Feb 11, 2018, 09:50 am
@newguitar, you are just wasting everyone's time posting pictures without ever taking the trouble to respond to the many Replies you have received.

You have not even explained the purpose of the pictures.


...R
Title: Re: ARDUINO + Ship automation
Post by: newguitar on Feb 11, 2018, 10:12 am
Heat-Pressure-The liquid level gives an alarm over the standard values.
The problem is checked on the screen.

Newguitar
Ship Machine Personnel
cnc micro control card programming specialist.
Autocad+Delph+C# software specialist.
Title: Re: ARDUINO + Ship automation
Post by: wvmarle on Feb 11, 2018, 10:20 am
If you have any questions, ask them.

If you want to showcase your projects, there's a separate section on this forum for that.
Title: Re: ARDUINO + Ship automation
Post by: Robin2 on Feb 11, 2018, 10:47 am
Heat-Pressure-The liquid level gives an alarm over the standard values.
The problem is checked on the screen.

Newguitar
Ship Machine Personnel
cnc micro control card programming specialist.
Autocad+Delph+C# software specialist.
This is still meaningless.

I won't waste my time reading this Thread again.

...R
Title: Re: ARDUINO + Ship automation
Post by: dave-in-nj on Feb 11, 2018, 01:28 pm
Can it be used in arduino ship automation by using appropriate equipment?
Yes use the right sensors create the correct program and it should work very well. For voltage shock xternal contaminants like salt water if they are going into areas that would need special certifications you would need to submit them to the proper authorities for certification in the US underwriter Laboratories is easy to have look at your equipment to verify the quality I think as a group we recommend that any devices you put in the application meet all the standards and requirements for that application.
You have not given us any actual information as to what you need or what you want to accomplish so our comments are based on General ideas not on specifics
Title: Re: ARDUINO + Ship automation
Post by: CREATE on Feb 11, 2018, 08:10 pm
Arduino can not be used in ship automation.
It does not have 12-24 volt digital and analog inputs.
pcb does not have screw terminal block.
For this reason it can fail the tests.
Title: Re: ARDUINO + Ship automation
Post by: wvmarle on Feb 12, 2018, 05:08 am
Arduino can not be used in ship automation.
It does not have 12-24 volt digital and analog inputs.
pcb does not have screw terminal block.
For this reason it can fail the tests.
Arduinos are not for any permanent installation to begin with. They are test/prototyping boards. Get the circuit right, then build a proper PCB.

12-24V inputs are no problem, either.
Title: Re: ARDUINO + Ship automation
Post by: SteevyT on Feb 13, 2018, 12:33 am
12-24V inputs are no problem, either.
I currently have an Arduino switching 120V AC.  I don't let it do it while I'm not around, but it's doing it.
Title: Re: ARDUINO + Ship automation
Post by: TomGeorge on Feb 13, 2018, 07:52 am
Hi.
Industry ready Arduino

https://controllino.biz/ (https://controllino.biz/)

https://www.iot-store.com.au/products/plc-arduino-ardbox-20-i-os-analog-7-0-open-industrial-plc (https://www.iot-store.com.au/products/plc-arduino-ardbox-20-i-os-analog-7-0-open-industrial-plc)

Even Industrial Arduino and Pi

https://www.industrialshields.com/ (https://www.industrialshields.com/)

Tom..... :)

Title: Re: ARDUINO + Ship automation
Post by: dave-in-nj on Feb 13, 2018, 08:29 am
Maybe the OP is trying to make a simulator for playing at "skipper" while safely on dry land. An Arduino would be fine for that.

But it would be nice if he would take the trouble to tell us.

...R
as far as we know, there is no project.

(http://wiki.gcdn.co/images/thumb/7/7b/2016_WoWS_Key_Art.png/300px-2016_WoWS_Key_Art.png)
(https://i2-prod.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article11047886.ece/ALTERNATES/s615b/RMS-Titanic-1911.jpg)

(http://3kbo302xo3lg2i1rj8450xje.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Semesma-32m-long-tug-boat-built-by-NDSQ-for-Milaha.jpg)
Title: Re: ARDUINO + Ship automation
Post by: dave-in-nj on Feb 13, 2018, 08:35 am
Hi.
Industry ready Arduino

https://controllino.biz/ (https://controllino.biz/)

https://www.iot-store.com.au/products/plc-arduino-ardbox-20-i-os-analog-7-0-open-industrial-plc (https://www.iot-store.com.au/products/plc-arduino-ardbox-20-i-os-analog-7-0-open-industrial-plc)

Even Industrial Arduino and Pi

https://www.industrialshields.com/ (https://www.industrialshields.com/)

Tom..... :)


a small PLC is less than $100 USD. 
small Siemens is $120 USD
half that of an Arduino PLC

mainstream PLC programs in the industry standard ladder logic.

question is not IF it can be done
Title: Re: ARDUINO + Ship automation
Post by: CREATE on Feb 13, 2018, 11:19 am
(https://www.sferalabs.cc/wp-content/uploads/iono-ard-uno-mod-board.png)

https://www.sferalabs.cc/iono-arduino/ (https://www.sferalabs.cc/iono-arduino/)

Arduino plc price

Uno       169€
Ethernet 199€

Title: Re: ARDUINO + Ship automation
Post by: dave-in-nj on Feb 13, 2018, 01:47 pm
https://www.sferalabs.cc/iono-arduino/ (https://www.sferalabs.cc/iono-arduino/)

Arduino plc price

Uno       169€
Ethernet 199€


so, for only a couple hundred dollars more, you can get a non-standard, not approved microprocessor based device with non-industry standard software.

since it is low voltage, it boasts  'compliant' as it's qualification into the marketplace.

as sea, with 10 electricians mates on -board, and none that know the Arduino software, and all that do know ladder logic.........    

(https://img00.deviantart.net/1c71/i/2012/022/6/5/sunken_ship_by_vonriesling-d4natvc.jpg)
Title: Re: ARDUINO + Ship automation
Post by: TomGeorge on Feb 13, 2018, 11:43 pm
as sea, with 10 electricians mates on -board, and none that know the Arduino software, and all that do know ladder logic.........    

With the complexity of and what  control systems do these days, an ocean going vessel needs a system engineer as well as the odd sparky.

A lot of PLCs are going over to "structured programming".
Trying to use a "Universal" IDE for PLCs called CODESYS which supports, Ladder, Structured and Function type programming
Quote
All five programming languages (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programming_language) for application programming defined in the IEC 61131-3 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEC_61131-3) are available in the CODESYS development environment.
  • IL (instruction list (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instruction_list)) is an assembler like programming language (Is now deprecated but available for backward compatibility )
  • ST (structured text (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structured_text)) is similar to programming in Pascal (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal_(programming_language)) or C (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C_(programming_language))
  • LD (ladder diagram (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ladder_logic)) enables the programmer to virtually combine relay contacts and coils
  • FBD (function block diagram (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Function_block_diagram)) enables the user to rapidly program both Boolean and analogue expressions
  • SFC (sequential function chart (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sequential_function_chart)) is convenient for programming sequential processes and flows

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CODESYS (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CODESYS)

Unlike Siemens and Allen Bradley the IDE is "FREE".

Tom... :)
Title: Re: ARDUINO + Ship automation
Post by: SteevyT on Feb 14, 2018, 12:57 am
thread
sense
none

<importjpeg.jpg>
Title: Re: ARDUINO + Ship automation
Post by: dave-in-nj on Feb 14, 2018, 01:51 am
thread
sense
none

<importjpeg.jpg>
Code: [Select]

thread = !sense;
Title: Re: ARDUINO + Ship automation
Post by: CREATE on Feb 16, 2018, 09:20 am
(https://resmim.net/f/i7wagf.png)

[Ship + CNC + INDUSTRIAL] Automation
Basic Sample
Title: Re: ARDUINO + Ship automation
Post by: dave-in-nj on Feb 16, 2018, 11:23 am
[ hobby electronics + pretty package + ship]

(https://fthmb.tqn.com/Pk1tVGFbLXb0aGLqFxAZ7_CLKY0=/768x0/filters:no_upscale()/U-boat-sinking-a-troop-transport-by-Willy-St-wer-57e942943df78c690f30abc8.jpg)
pretty simple
Title: Re: ARDUINO + Ship automation
Post by: CREATE on Feb 16, 2018, 01:00 pm
if ((error>arduino)&&(error>plc)&&(error>tesla_car)&&(error>human))
human=(error+correct)/2;
 :)  :)  :)
Title: Re: ARDUINO + Ship automation
Post by: Robin2 on Feb 16, 2018, 01:10 pm
I think it is time for this to move to Bar Sport

...R
Title: Re: ARDUINO + Ship automation
Post by: Johnny010 on Feb 16, 2018, 06:42 pm
I think it is time for this to move to Bar Sport

...R
I think it is time to mark this as the collapse of intelligent civilisation.
Title: Re: ARDUINO + Ship automation
Post by: dave-in-nj on Feb 16, 2018, 06:52 pm
digitalWrite(topic, barsport);

(http://chexal.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/20150329_2109470.jpg) (http://chexal.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/20150329_2109470.jpg)
Title: Re: ARDUINO + Ship automation
Post by: CREATE on Feb 16, 2018, 07:00 pm
Massacre = Automation - Human;
Title: Re: ARDUINO + Ship automation
Post by: Qdeathstar on Feb 17, 2018, 08:49 pm
I think you would need a third to monitor for disagreement between the arduino and sound an alarm if they disagree, not take over, since there is no way of knowing which arduino has the fault
Title: Re: ARDUINO + Ship automation
Post by: Robin2 on Feb 17, 2018, 10:59 pm
I understand that when electronic control was introduced into the railways in Britain it was on the basis of three identical units and normally they would be expected to agree. If one of them was different the system would continue to work using the other two. (Presumably a fault message was sent). If the two were not the same the system would shut down train movements at that location.

I also believe that on aircraft the multiple units are deliberately different to reduce (hopefully eliminate) the risk of a fault that is common to all the units.

...R
Title: Re: ARDUINO + Ship automation
Post by: TomGeorge on Feb 17, 2018, 11:35 pm
I understand that when electronic control was introduced into the railways in Britain it was on the basis of three identical units and normally they would be expected to agree. If one of them was different the system would continue to work using the other two. (Presumably a fault message was sent). If the two were not the same the system would shut down train movements at that location.

I also believe that on aircraft the multiple units are deliberately different to reduce (hopefully eliminate) the risk of a fault that is common to all the units.

...R
The NASA Shuttle had 5 computers in parallel, all 5 from different companies and CPU/language types.
I gather 3 out of 4 had to agree to allow a command to be issued.
The fifth was a backup.
(https://history.nasa.gov/computers/p94.jpg)
BUT what about the processor doing the output checking...  :o
https://history.nasa.gov/computers/Ch4-3.html (https://history.nasa.gov/computers/Ch4-3.html)



Tom... :)
Title: Re: ARDUINO + Ship automation
Post by: TomGeorge on Feb 17, 2018, 11:47 pm
as for the output checking, i would think something lower level, like pure logic chips, may be required.

~Travis
Yes probably, TTL, ECL, Thyristor Valves, Diode Logic, Ex PMG relays. :o
Tom... :) :) :)
Title: Re: ARDUINO + Ship automation
Post by: Robin2 on Feb 18, 2018, 12:10 pm
BUT what about the processor doing the output checking...  :o
I believe the system that was (is ?) used on British railways did not just compare the outputs - it also checked intermediate stages of the calculations (if calculations is the right word).

...R
Title: Re: ARDUINO + Ship automation
Post by: Robin2 on Feb 18, 2018, 01:08 pm
so if, as an example, an analog read from A0, arranged for pin D2 to be either high or low, then rather than compare just the digital outputs from D2 on the cluster of Arduinos, it would also read in the sensor attached to A0, run it's own calculations, and compare results with the outputs from the cluster of Arduinos? i can see the benefit of that, but i can also see the cluster + monitors growing exponentially.
I don't know enough to answer that. I just skimmed a large book that gave an overview of the system.

...R
Title: Re: ARDUINO + Ship automation
Post by: Boardburner2 on Feb 18, 2018, 09:06 pm
There are no penalties for Siemens :)
There are for semens. i suspect a wind up.
Title: Re: ARDUINO + Ship automation
Post by: Henry_Best on Feb 18, 2018, 09:16 pm
What is being asked is a very old question that dates back to Roman times: Who (or in this case, what) checks the checkers? A legitimate question, but taken too far results in "turtles all the way down"/infinite recursion. That way leads to madness.
Title: Re: ARDUINO + Ship automation
Post by: SteevyT on Feb 18, 2018, 10:16 pm
Could you have the other boards check whether the checker is checking properly?
Title: Re: ARDUINO + Ship automation
Post by: Henry_Best on Feb 18, 2018, 10:46 pm
my, what a rabbit-hole this has become. ;)

you could, but then you would need something to follow up on the checker that checks the checker, so you would need yet more checkers. ;)
As I said, infinite regression.
Title: Re: ARDUINO + Ship automation
Post by: ardly on Feb 19, 2018, 11:25 am
I think you would need a third to monitor for disagreement between the arduino and sound an alarm if they disagree, not take over, since there is no way of knowing which arduino has the fault
Is the solution not to use two out of three voting?

Three Arduinos would each run different software but having the same functionality ( to avoid common point of failure in the software ).  The Arduino hardware would be identical so there might be common faults there. Additional high reliability electronics would drive outputs based on two out of three voting of the Arduino outputs, alarming whenever the vote was not unanimous.

I think something like that would be possible for digital outputs, but I don't know how analogs would be handled.

Title: Re: ARDUINO + Ship automation
Post by: wvmarle on Feb 19, 2018, 12:02 pm
I don't know how analogs would be handled.
By nature of being analog, it'd be hard to have three (or even two out of three) analog outputs (that would be PWM for Arduino) to be exactly the same. So you'd probably have to approach it like float comparisons: if less than this much different, it's equal.
Title: Re: ARDUINO + Ship automation
Post by: ardly on Feb 19, 2018, 12:19 pm
By nature of being analog, it'd be hard to have three (or even two out of three) analog outputs (that would be PWM for Arduino) to be exactly the same. So you'd probably have to approach it like float comparisons: if less than this much different, it's equal.
Yes. Even with digitals things get messy. A program may "think" it output a 'high' but the voting might have resulted in a 'low'. Unless the program accepts the actual output as an input it would be unaware of that. If it does read the actual output how would the code handle the discrepancy - all very complicated.

As an aside;

Two out of three voting was used in a missile guidance system where three pigeons attempted to keep a missile on target. The pigeons rarely missed in the simulator.

I had not heard about "Bat Bombs" before. They too seemed to be quite effective. Escaped bats managed to burn down a large part of the air force base on which they were being trained.

http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2013/12/pigeon-guided-missiles-bird-brained-ideas/ (http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2013/12/pigeon-guided-missiles-bird-brained-ideas/)


 
Title: Re: ARDUINO + Ship automation
Post by: Qdeathstar on Feb 19, 2018, 01:45 pm
@arly, you would need something to monitor, so if they are all monitoring each other maybe you could vote, but it would depend on what the penalty for making the wrong choice is.


Typically on a plane if there is disagreement in flight control feedback autopilot shuts off and a alarm goes off.
Title: Re: ARDUINO + Ship automation
Post by: Robin2 on Feb 19, 2018, 01:50 pm
Typically on a plane if there is disagreement in flight control feedback autopilot shuts off and a alarm goes off.
In modern airliners there is no non-computer backup.

...R
Title: Re: ARDUINO + Ship automation
Post by: ardly on Feb 19, 2018, 04:54 pm
In modern airliners there is no non-computer backup.

...R
It is probably not quite that black and white. The planes probably cannot fly without any computers but I imagine they are fairly modular and some modules might have a manual mode. Auto-pilot is just cruise control so that can be turned off. Landing and take-off can be fully automated but the pilot could take over I am sure.
Title: Re: ARDUINO + Ship automation
Post by: Robin2 on Feb 19, 2018, 07:00 pm
The planes probably cannot fly without any computers
That is all I was trying to say.

IIRC the early Boeing 747's had limited mechanical control as a backup - i.e. cables between the cockpit and the control surfaces. I doubt if the newest ones have and the Airbus and newer Boeings are all fly by electrical wire.

...R
Title: Re: ARDUINO + Ship automation
Post by: Qdeathstar on Feb 19, 2018, 08:41 pm
Yes robin, I was referring to autopilot.  Most fly by wire.  I think Boeing even gives the computer final say over inputs. So if pic makes innapropriate commands the computer will choose to ignore them.
Title: Re: ARDUINO + Ship automation
Post by: Robin2 on Feb 20, 2018, 12:00 am
There was a very reassuring story about one Airbus pilot saying to the other "what's it doing now?"

...R
Title: Re: ARDUINO + Ship automation
Post by: TomGeorge on Feb 20, 2018, 01:06 am
There was a very reassuring story about one Airbus pilot saying to the other "what's it doing now?"

...R
Ha ha ha.
I watch the occasional air disaster doco, can someone tell me the answer to this?
If you can fly in an airliner, they can give you a personal video screen and some airlines actually give you a feed to a camera mounted somewhere on the aircraft to watch takeoff and landing.
BUT they cannot supply the cockpit with a a couple of video feeds of the engines?
Every program I have seen, even with the latest flyby wire aircraft, the crew only have what there instruments tell them, so have to send a crew member back into the passenger cabin to look out the window to see if the engine is still there when they suspect a problem! ! ! !
The aircraft design does not allow the crew to look out the cockpit window to see the engines.
From; Madagascar, Escape2 Africa
Quote
[Bulb on the fuel guage is flashing]
Kowalski (http://"http://\"http://\\"http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0588087/?ref_=tt_trv_qu"""): Skipper, look.
Skipper (http://"http://\"http://\\"http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0569891/?ref_=tt_trv_qu"""): Analysis
Kowalski (http://"http://\"http://\\"http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0588087/?ref_=tt_trv_qu"""): It looks like a small incandescent bulb, designed to indicate something out of the ordinary, like a malfunction.
Skipper (http://"http://\"http://\\"http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0569891/?ref_=tt_trv_qu"""): I find it pretty and somewhat hypnotic.
Kowalski (http://"http://\"http://\\"http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0588087/?ref_=tt_trv_qu"""): That too, sir.
Skipper (http://"http://\"http://\\"http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0569891/?ref_=tt_trv_qu"""): Right. Rico, maunal!
[Catches the manual and smashes the bulb with it]
Skipper (http://"http://\"http://\\"http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0569891/?ref_=tt_trv_qu"""): Problemo solved.
Kowalski (http://"http://\"http://\\"http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0588087/?ref_=tt_trv_qu"""): Sir, we may be out of fuel.
Skipper (http://"http://\"http://\\"http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0569891/?ref_=tt_trv_qu"""): What makes you think that?
Kowalski (http://"http://\"http://\\"http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0588087/?ref_=tt_trv_qu"""): We've lost engine one, and engine two is no longer on fire.
Skipper (http://"http://\"http://\\"http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0569891/?ref_=tt_trv_qu"""): Buckle up, boys. Don't look, doll, this might get hairy.
[on the microphone]
Skipper (http://"http://\"http://\\"http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0569891/?ref_=tt_trv_qu"""): This is your captain speaking. I have good news and bad news. The good news is that we will be landing immediately.
[everyone claps]
Skipper (http://"http://\"http://\\"http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0569891/?ref_=tt_trv_qu"""): The bad news is, we're crash landing.
[Plane goes on a dive]
Skipper (http://"http://\"http://\\"http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0569891/?ref_=tt_trv_qu"""): When it comes to air travel, we know that you have no choice whatsoever, but thanks again for choosing Air Penguin.
I love the penguins..
Tom.... :) :)
Title: Re: ARDUINO + Ship automation
Post by: wilykat on Feb 20, 2018, 07:20 am
I remember one episode of Air Disaster (or was it Mayday?) where fly by wire had a slight bug that doomed the plane.  For some reason a pilot allowed 2 children in the cockpit. The plane was on autopilot at the time and the kid shouldn't be able to mess anything up but due to an unknown (at the time) idiosyncrasies if someone held the yoke turned for too long, the autopilot disengages just the flap (aileron? can't remember which) but still retained autopilot. The plane started to roll and the pilot tried to manually correct, not realizing the autopilot was still partially functioning and couldn't recover and ultimately crashed.

Took the investigator a while to figure out the autopilot got glitched that lead to the crash, and the airline maker was forced to make change to prevent this.
Title: Re: ARDUINO + Ship automation
Post by: Robin2 on Feb 20, 2018, 09:21 am
I have said this before elsewhere on the Forum in a different context. Several times I have written a program for myself that does exactly what I want. But when I showed it to a very sensible friend who has little or no interest in programming he tried to do something which I had not anticipated and crashed the program. And what he did was perfectly sensible - he was not trying to cause a problem.

Extend that concept to testing aircraft software and I have great admiration for the test pilot who takes it off the ground for the first time. How easy would it be to discover that lifting pressure off the undercarriage causes mayhem because somebody forgot to add \\ at the start of a couple of lines of code.

...R
Title: Re: ARDUINO + Ship automation
Post by: ardly on Feb 20, 2018, 10:56 am
I saw a video once, taken from the ground, of a couple of test pilots putting a military plane through it paces, unfortunately I have not been able to find a link.

They switched the engine off which cause the plane to start falling from the sky. It was unstable, tumbling about, not gliding. You could hear the the pilot and copilot going through an checklist to relight the engine. At each failed ignition attempt you could see a cloud of fuel escaping from the plane. They would then calmly resume their checklist.

How they were able to function with the erratic g forces beats me. Eventually they managed to restart the engine but it took them four or five attempts.
Title: Re: ARDUINO + Ship automation
Post by: Henry_Best on Feb 20, 2018, 07:04 pm
I have said this before elsewhere on the Forum in a different context. Several times I have written a program for myself that does exactly what I want. But when I showed it to a very sensible friend who has little or no interest in programming he tried to do something which I had not anticipated and crashed the program. And what he did was perfectly sensible - he was not trying to cause a problem.
BTDT. I wrote a VBA program for work with a drop-down box in it. Worked fine until someone started typing in the box instead of using the drop-down. What they were typing was already in the drop-down list! Simple enough to cure (by preventing typed input), but easily overlooked.
"It's not idiot proof until it has been tested by a fully qualified idiot."
Title: Re: ARDUINO + Ship automation
Post by: wvmarle on Feb 21, 2018, 02:56 am
BTDT. I wrote a VBA program for work with a drop-down box in it. Worked fine until someone started typing in the box instead of using the drop-down. What they were typing was already in the drop-down list!
That's what I routinely do on web sites - beats scrolling down a list of hundreds of items of which only a few are shown at a time (such as when entering your country).
Title: Re: ARDUINO + Ship automation
Post by: Henry_Best on Feb 21, 2018, 06:45 am
That's what I routinely do on web sites - beats scrolling down a list of hundreds of items of which only a few are shown at a time (such as when entering your country).
There were only about 6 items on that list - "Mr.", "Mrs.", "Miss", "Ms.", "Dr." and "Rev." and, perhaps, another one.
Not too difficult to find what you're looking for.
Title: Re: ARDUINO + Ship automation
Post by: wvmarle on Feb 21, 2018, 12:24 pm
Still not too surprising - hands on the keyboard, start typing (even for the short list). Hands on the mouse, use that.

Proper user interface design is tricky indeed.
Title: Re: ARDUINO + Ship automation
Post by: TomGeorge on Feb 21, 2018, 12:35 pm
That's what I routinely do on web sites - beats scrolling down a list of hundreds of items of which only a few are shown at a time (such as when entering your country).
Aussie Aussie Aussie    Oi Oi Oi
Title: Re: ARDUINO + Ship automation
Post by: wvmarle on Feb 21, 2018, 01:18 pm
Beware to not accidentally click Austria instead :-)
Title: Re: ARDUINO + Ship automation
Post by: TomGeorge on Feb 21, 2018, 01:28 pm
Beware to not accidentally click Austria instead :-)
"I'll be baaaacckkkk..."