Arduino Forum

General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: mowcius on Mar 31, 2011, 10:20 am

Title: Arduino 1.0 Soon - What do you want to see?
Post by: mowcius on Mar 31, 2011, 10:20 am
I hear Arduino 1.0 is coming very soon - lets have a 'who wants what' so we can all be disappointed when things aren't included :D

I'd like it to show the serial port and board in dropdown selection boxes instead of it being hidden in a menu.
I'd like the icons to be updated a little bit to reflect the 'shiny new 1.0' - maybe the startup box too.

There are more but lets hear what others have to say...
Title: Re: Arduino 1.0 Soon - What do you want to see?
Post by: Benji on Mar 31, 2011, 12:24 pm
Popular demand in some forums appears to be:
A module that let's you tell what you want to do and it gives you the code and what components you use.
Title: Re: Arduino 1.0 Soon - What do you want to see?
Post by: mowcius on Mar 31, 2011, 01:51 pm
Haha yeah - unfortunately that can't be done - that's why we have PaulS... :D
Title: Re: Arduino 1.0 Soon - What do you want to see?
Post by: graynomad on Mar 31, 2011, 03:09 pm
Auto popup/down of the serial monitor seems to be popular.

Allowing some control over the compiler flags.

Remembering the size and position of the window (bloody hell every program I've written in the last 20 years has done that).

Line numbers.

Allow tab size setting.

Use tabs not spaces.

These are (or should be) simple things, no need to emulate Eclipse or Netbeans. Just make it a bit more usable.

______
Rob
Title: Re: Arduino 1.0 Soon - What do you want to see?
Post by: mowcius on Mar 31, 2011, 03:17 pm
Yeah I like all of those.

Also - more file extensions allowed for tabbed files. Why can't I use .hpp or .hp or .cp? why only .h, .c, .cpp and .pde?

Title: Re: Arduino 1.0 Soon - What do you want to see?
Post by: Coding Badly on Mar 31, 2011, 09:16 pm

A file extension other than dot-PDE that is NOT three letters.

Per-Sketch build options (#define's that are passed to the compiler when building the core / libraries).
Title: Re: Arduino 1.0 Soon - What do you want to see?
Post by: bld on Mar 31, 2011, 09:37 pm

Auto popup/down of the serial monitor seems to be popular.

Would love to see that too, or even better, let the window stay open, and disable the monitor while uploading, then enable it again after it is finished.

Would also love to see a system that could contain libraries and download them if not found. So you put ie #include <Keypad.h> in, and it then searches the database with all libraries in, and then asks if it should download and auto install it if it is found.

Also so it could suggest things while you write, like when I write C#, it then keeps popping up with a little list of things that could be related to what I write.
Title: Re: Arduino 1.0 Soon - What do you want to see?
Post by: a.d on Mar 31, 2011, 09:37 pm
Definitely tabs not spaces.

Line numbers.

Serial Monitor reappears again if the IDE makes it disappear when hitting upload.

If the file is modified outside of the editor, ask if you want to load the new updated version.

Just went looking for this, apparently setting to use an external editor works well for this


And although it may seem petty, an aesthetic update would be appreciated.

Just a few little ones ;)
Title: Re: Arduino 1.0 Soon - What do you want to see?
Post by: u0421793 on Apr 01, 2011, 12:45 am
Ability to use Forth.
Title: Re: Arduino 1.0 Soon - What do you want to see?
Post by: frank26080115 on Apr 01, 2011, 01:11 am
Have it become simply a Eclipse or NetBeans extension, or simply become another Eclipse or NetBeans distribution.
Title: Re: Arduino 1.0 Soon - What do you want to see?
Post by: DCContrarian on Apr 01, 2011, 05:03 am
Double-click on an error and go to the line of code.
Ability to easily open library files in the editor.
Ability to put your own library files in a directory outside of the arduino installation so you can upgrade to a new release and keep your own libraries.
Title: Re: Arduino 1.0 Soon - What do you want to see?
Post by: retrolefty on Apr 01, 2011, 05:53 am
Quote
Ability to put your own library files in a directory outside of the arduino installation so you can upgrade to a new release and keep your own libraries.


That feature has existed for several arduino IDE versions now.

Quote
There is a list of libraries in the reference. Some libraries are included with the Arduino software. Others can be downloaded from a variety of sources. To install these third-party libraries, create a directory called libraries within your sketchbook directory. Then unzip the library there. For example, to install the DateTime library, its files should be in the /libraries/DateTime sub-folder of your sketchbook folder.



Lefty
Title: Re: Arduino 1.0 Soon - What do you want to see?
Post by: Simpson_Jr on Apr 01, 2011, 11:23 am
Support for all 8-bit AVRs...
Title: Re: Arduino 1.0 Soon - What do you want to see?
Post by: cjands40 on Apr 02, 2011, 06:19 pm
PLEASE fix the IDE so that when you use the Undo command, the focus moves to show you what got undone!
Title: Re: Arduino 1.0 Soon - What do you want to see?
Post by: Valalvax on Apr 03, 2011, 01:58 am
Personally a few of the things already mentioned are my biggest complaints, lack of line numbers and the tab situation...

Something I'd like to see, and I don't think it'll be in this version, maybe in a few more updates, but when you select functions or variables, it highlights other places in the code where they're called...
Title: Re: Arduino 1.0 Soon - What do you want to see?
Post by: graynomad on Apr 03, 2011, 02:31 am
Quote
when you select functions or variables, it highlights other places in the code where they're called...

That's a very useful feature.

______
Rob
Title: Re: Arduino 1.0 Soon - What do you want to see?
Post by: DCContrarian on Apr 03, 2011, 04:07 am
Everything that Turbo C had in 1990.
Title: Re: Arduino 1.0 Soon - What do you want to see?
Post by: mowcius on Apr 03, 2011, 09:40 pm
Quote
Everything that Turbo C had in 1990.

Haha :D
Title: Re: Arduino 1.0 Soon - What do you want to see?
Post by: oldbeeman on Apr 05, 2011, 08:23 pm
the ability to see the c code that it is compiling.  maybe in a second window.
Title: Re: Arduino 1.0 Soon - What do you want to see?
Post by: Valalvax on Apr 05, 2011, 09:59 pm
Oh, another not necessarily next update, but sometime in the future possible feature, breakpoints... so that you can get a better idea of where your code is failing
Title: Re: Arduino 1.0 Soon - What do you want to see?
Post by: frank26080115 on Apr 06, 2011, 12:34 am

Oh, another not necessarily next update, but sometime in the future possible feature, breakpoints... so that you can get a better idea of where your code is failing


That absolutely requires special hardware, or REALLY complicated software and firmware
Title: Re: Arduino 1.0 Soon - What do you want to see?
Post by: Valalvax on Apr 06, 2011, 03:10 am


Oh, another not necessarily next update, but sometime in the future possible feature, breakpoints... so that you can get a better idea of where your code is failing


That absolutely requires special hardware, or REALLY complicated software and firmware


... >.> didn't think about that one in regards to hardware and software integration
Title: Re: Arduino 1.0 Soon - What do you want to see?
Post by: retrolefty on Apr 06, 2011, 03:14 am
Make the compiler understand what I mean rather then what I type.

Lefty
Title: Re: Arduino 1.0 Soon - What do you want to see?
Post by: Coding Badly on Apr 06, 2011, 03:53 am
Make the compiler understand what I mean rather then what I type.


That's something we could all use!
Title: Re: Arduino 1.0 Soon - What do you want to see?
Post by: Valalvax on Apr 06, 2011, 12:33 pm

Make the compiler understand what I mean rather then what I type.

Lefty


It does understand what you mean, it just only does what you type to piss you off
Title: Re: Arduino 1.0 Soon - What do you want to see?
Post by: Simpson_Jr on Apr 06, 2011, 02:52 pm

Make the compiler understand what I mean rather then what I type.

Lefty


Be careful with what you wish, It might become member of the union and demand a better PC to run on.
Title: Re: Arduino 1.0 Soon - What do you want to see?
Post by: Onions on Apr 07, 2011, 09:59 pm
Quote
Support for all 8-bit AVRs...


That would definately be useful. There are already files for some of the AVRs (ATtiny 45, ATtiny 85 and ATtiny 84, if I remember correctly). The only problem is that they are not included in the IDE hardware section...
Although it might take a long time to create the files, there are some microcontrollers that I would love to be able to use with the arduino, and I'm sure other people feel the same. The ATMega8535-16PU is one that I would like to use, but I cannot find any hardware files for it.

Onions.
Title: Re: Arduino 1.0 Soon - What do you want to see?
Post by: GaryP on Apr 07, 2011, 11:43 pm
I use tabs in my project, and the "Find"-function don't look from other than active tab only... That would be nice option if it could search from the whole project. Or does it already?

Cheers,
Kari
Title: Re: Arduino 1.0 Soon - What do you want to see?
Post by: retrolefty on Apr 07, 2011, 11:45 pm
I still wish at least the compiled .hex file was saved into the sketch's application folder rather then having to search for it in the temp directories.

Lefty

Title: Re: Arduino 1.0 Soon - What do you want to see?
Post by: a.d on Apr 08, 2011, 01:36 am

I still wish at least the compiled .hex file was saved into the sketch's application folder rather then having to search for it in the temp directories.

Lefty


This would be handy. Very handy.
Title: Re: Arduino 1.0 Soon - What do you want to see?
Post by: graynomad on Apr 08, 2011, 04:04 am
This entire temp folder thing is a PITA. If you have a project you want all the relevant files in a known work folder IMO.

______
Rob
Title: Re: Arduino 1.0 Soon - What do you want to see?
Post by: CrossRoads on Apr 08, 2011, 05:31 am
I keep seeing Line Numbers come up - don't folks realize that they show up already?
I have used that to help in my debugging when the error messages indicate an error in a line
(http://www.crossroadsfencing.com/line_number.jpg)
Title: Re: Arduino 1.0 Soon - What do you want to see?
Post by: graynomad on Apr 08, 2011, 06:01 am
Yes but that's still not as good as having a number on every line. I find say I get an error on line 2396, now I have to scan down the page clicking in a dozen places until I land on the right line. Much easier to just look at the left column.

______
Rob
Title: Re: Arduino 1.0 Soon - What do you want to see?
Post by: CrossRoads on Apr 08, 2011, 06:18 am
But doesn't the compiler usually highlight the line the error was on?   That has seemed pretty straightforward to me.

The tricky part I have found was figuring where an earlier missing { ( ; / type character was that caused a later line to fail.
Title: Re: Arduino 1.0 Soon - What do you want to see?
Post by: frank26080115 on Apr 08, 2011, 06:31 am

But doesn't the compiler usually highlight the line the error was on?


The compiler doesn't, Arduino IDE does, and it only highlights the first error. Other IDEs will let you double click on an error to goto that line but Arduino cannot do this.
Title: Re: Arduino 1.0 Soon - What do you want to see?
Post by: CrossRoads on Apr 08, 2011, 06:42 am
Alright, my installation is hosed - can't even start the compiler, can't find "avr-gcc".
Need to get my taxes done than go clean up my files.  Think I hosed things getting the sanguino files put in the right place and discovered -0021 wasn't sitting where I thought it was, but in some virtual c:/program files instead.
One more thing to add to the to-do list ....
Title: Re: Arduino 1.0 Soon - What do you want to see?
Post by: graynomad on Apr 08, 2011, 06:43 am
You're probably right about the highlighting, it's been so long since I've had an error I can't remember   XD

______
Rob
Title: Re: Arduino 1.0 Soon - What do you want to see?
Post by: mowcius on Apr 08, 2011, 07:06 pm

I still wish at least the compiled .hex file was saved into the sketch's application folder rather then having to search for it in the temp directories.

Lefty

+1 to this
Title: Re: Arduino 1.0 Soon - What do you want to see?
Post by: Simpson_Jr on Apr 08, 2011, 07:12 pm

I still wish at least the compiled .hex file was saved into the sketch's application folder rather then having to search for it in the temp directories.

Lefty




Hear Hear
Title: Re: Arduino 1.0 Soon - What do you want to see?
Post by: frank26080115 on Apr 08, 2011, 07:20 pm
More than just the .hex file, the .elf file would be useful too. For example, with AVR-Project-IDE, there's a dedicated window that will let you disassemble a compiled .elf file to see the corresponding assembly code for your C code.
Title: Re: Arduino 1.0 Soon - What do you want to see?
Post by: madsci1016 on Apr 14, 2011, 04:26 pm

I still wish at least the compiled .hex file was saved into the sketch's application folder rather then having to search for it in the temp directories.

Lefty



+1000 to this. Big time. The fact I have to go hunt down the hex file every time I want to compile and flash is causing me huge headaches and wastes of time.

Why was this changed in the first place? Can we have the option to re-enable it PLEASE!!!
Title: Re: Arduino 1.0 Soon - What do you want to see?
Post by: Coding Badly on Apr 14, 2011, 08:00 pm
Quote
The fact I have to go hunt down the hex file every time I want to compile and flash


Would you like help getting the upload to work from the IDE?
Title: Re: Arduino 1.0 Soon - What do you want to see?
Post by: frank26080115 on Apr 14, 2011, 08:17 pm

Quote
The fact I have to go hunt down the hex file every time I want to compile and flash


Why do you have to do that?  The IDE is capable of uploading.



What if I wanted the .elf file to make a .lst file or .map file? or to run avr-size on it to know how much static RAM is used? What if I needed the .eep file to load into pre-initialize EEPROM?
Title: Re: Arduino 1.0 Soon - What do you want to see?
Post by: Coding Badly on Apr 14, 2011, 08:39 pm
I am aware of the benefits of placing target files in a known / fixed location and I am strongly in favour of restoring that functionality.

@madsci1016 appears to be having problems with just uploading; something that the IDE is capable of doing.  I am offering assistance in the form of goading an answer to a question.  I will reword my previous post in the hopes of making my intention more clear.  Sorry for the confusion.
Title: Re: Arduino 1.0 Soon - What do you want to see?
Post by: maniacbug on Apr 20, 2011, 01:13 am

What if I wanted the .elf file to make a .lst file or .map file? or to run avr-size on it to know how much static RAM is used? What if I needed the .eep file to load into pre-initialize EEPROM?


I say, if you even KNOW what the .lst .map and .eep files are, chances are good you're not the target user for the Arduino IDE.  I hope the development team keeps a clear focus on the beginning user.  Perhaps one nice thing would be to provide a nice "graduation path" for people to gracefully move on once they're advanced users.
Title: Re: Arduino 1.0 Soon - What do you want to see?
Post by: cowjam on May 06, 2011, 04:01 pm

Everything that Turbo C had in 1990.


Borland's Turbo IDE was the best I've ever used (though I did pascal rather than c). 
Title: Re: Arduino 1.0 Soon - What do you want to see?
Post by: Coding Badly on May 06, 2011, 07:25 pm

Bah.  It didn't have "code completion".  The NuSphere PHP IDE is the best I've ever used.  That thing is able to read my mind!
Title: Re: Arduino 1.0 Soon - What do you want to see?
Post by: Brandon_R on May 07, 2011, 04:55 am
take a look at the modern editors such as visual studio, eclipse, netbeans etc and implement the successful features from each.
Title: Re: Arduino 1.0 Soon - What do you want to see?
Post by: madsci1016 on Jun 28, 2011, 02:27 am


Would you like help getting the upload to work from the IDE?



I am deploying updates to remote Arduinos connected to hosts across a network. I'm not having issues with my local machine and it's ability to upload locally. I just want access to the compiled hex file so I can push it across the network.
Title: Re: Arduino 1.0 Soon - What do you want to see?
Post by: mowcius on Jun 28, 2011, 02:31 am
Well you can do that already - hold shift (or is it control) while compiling and it'll tell you where it dumped it.
Title: Re: Arduino 1.0 Soon - What do you want to see?
Post by: madsci1016 on Jun 28, 2011, 01:39 pm

Well you can do that already - hold shift (or is it control) while compiling and it'll tell you where it dumped it.


Quite aware of that; it's the only way I've been able to proceed. But like I said hunting down through the levels of temp folders is a giant waste of time and rather annoying. The folder changes randomly every so often.

IT was much easier when the hex file used to be saved in the project's directory. I am strongly urging that option to be added, much like the others on this thread.
Title: Re: Arduino 1.0 Soon - What do you want to see?
Post by: mowcius on Jun 28, 2011, 02:02 pm
Well you just said you wanted to access it.

As they're testing beta at the moment and it's still hidden away in some random temp folder I doubt it's going to change :s
Title: Re: Arduino 1.0 Soon - What do you want to see?
Post by: madsci1016 on Jun 28, 2011, 02:09 pm
I guess you hadn't read my other posts in this thread?

Quote
As they're testing beta at the moment and it's still hidden away in some random temp folder I doubt it's going to change :s


This sucks, there's many people asking for this to be added in this thread and elsewhere. Why are we getting ignored?
Title: Re: Arduino 1.0 Soon - What do you want to see?
Post by: mowcius on Jun 28, 2011, 02:11 pm
Quote
Why are we getting ignored?

Because that's what they do :(
Title: Re: Arduino 1.0 Soon - What do you want to see?
Post by: madsci1016 on Jun 28, 2011, 02:12 pm
Le sigh...   :~
Title: Re: Arduino 1.0 Soon - What do you want to see?
Post by: CrossRoads on Jun 29, 2011, 12:33 am
madsci1016:

"A topic you are watching has been locked by madsci1016.

View the topic at: http://arduino.cc/forum/index.php?topic=65142.new;topicseen#new"

&

"And I'd appreciate it if questions where asked on my blog so others who visit not from this forum could see the questions and answers as well. "

Ain't gonna happen, not enough  hours in the day for me to chase down your personal blog to address topics YOU started in this forum.
Title: Re: Arduino 1.0 Soon - What do you want to see?
Post by: madsci1016 on Jun 29, 2011, 01:09 am
CrossRoads,

You followed a link to my blog, read my tutorial and came back to the Arduino forum to ask me a question about what you read. It actually took you more time to come back the the Arduino forum to post the question then it did just to stay on the article.

You misread my tutorial and had a question I had to respond to and clarify. Now if anyone else has the same question that came from another source like the post on hackaday or another forum, I have to answer it again. And I'd have to check all the sources I posted to see if people had a question. I'm the one writing tutorials for beginners and you are asking me to spend more time chasing you down? Really?

I posted the link with synopsis here for people to find when the use the forums search function looking for a related question/issue. That should help beginners here find my tutorial when they need to.

And instead of PM'ing me you hunt me down on an unrelated thread to call me out and junk up someone else's topic? Is this really how people behave here?

Admins, please remove this and CrossRoads unrelated post. I don't want to take away from the feature request discussion.
Title: Re: Arduino 1.0 Soon - What do you want to see?
Post by: CrossRoads on Jun 29, 2011, 01:35 am
Didn't hunt you down, just noticed you had posted here after closing the other thread  in the middle of discussion and trying to enjoin me to regain the discussion of arduino topics elsewhere. I don't follow any hackaday forums or any others regarding arduino - just this one, where the original developers are.

Didn't take any more time to click on the open window of the original topic.

If any one happened to search for why arduino couldn't download while their circuit was hooked up, they would doubtless come across all the numerous instances of being directed to not connect to D0/D1 while trying to download.  And based on the questions posted, most do not.

So I'm not really in the mood to argue, I'm gonna go order some PCBs of my own design & start ordering parts...
Title: Re: Arduino 1.0 Soon - What do you want to see?
Post by: retrolefty on Jun 29, 2011, 02:17 am
Anyone wishing a more direct pipe to the ardudino developers might post their questions in their archive list:

http://arduino.cc/pipermail/developers_arduino.cc/

http://arduino.cc/mailman/listinfo/developers_arduino.cc

If anyone does this, tell them I want my hex files back.  :D
Title: Re: Arduino 1.0 Soon - What do you want to see?
Post by: mowcius on Jun 29, 2011, 11:23 am
madsci1016, none of us like that way of talking - if you ask on the forum, people reply on the forum.

Quote
I'm the one writing tutorials for beginners and you are asking me to spend more time chasing you down? Really?

No you're not - lots of people have written tutorials.

Quote
Admins, please remove this and CrossRoads unrelated post. I don't want to take away from the feature request discussion.

You can remove your own post via the remove button, it's up to crossroads to decide if he wants to remove his post.

If you don't like it then keep it to yourself
Title: Re: Arduino 1.0 Soon - What do you want to see?
Post by: madsci1016 on Jun 29, 2011, 03:42 pm
Quote
if you ask on the forum, people reply on the forum.


I didn't ask on the forum, I posted a link to my tutorial for people to find. CrossRoads read on my tutorial elsewhere, came back and asked on the forum.

Quote
No you're not


No I'm not what? Are you saying I didn't write a tutorial?

Quote
lots of people have written tutorials


Did I say otherwise?

Quote
none of us like that way of talking


What way of talking? Defending myself when someone chases me down in an unrelated post to go "No!, You're wrong!!". Taking aware from useful discussion for personal vendettas.  Apparently you are ok with people doing that? I guess that's an acceptable practice here then.

There's no point in continuing this further. I just won't respond next time and save other random threads from getting junked up.
Title: Re: Arduino 1.0 Soon - What do you want to see?
Post by: mowcius on Jun 29, 2011, 06:54 pm
Quote
There's no point in continuing this further.

I agree

Quote
I just won't respond next time and save other random threads from getting junked up.

Random threads? I'll have you know this isn't just any old random thread... :P
Title: Re: Arduino 1.0 Soon - What do you want to see?
Post by: madsci1016 on Jun 29, 2011, 08:40 pm
Quote
I'll have you know this isn't just any old random thread...


True, this is a good thread.  :D

Now we just need to get the dev team to read it and listen to our requests. I'd really like my hex file without the hunt.
Title: Re: Arduino 1.0 Soon - What do you want to see?
Post by: mowcius on Jun 30, 2011, 11:17 am
Quote
I'd really like my hex file without the hunt.

Go with wiring (http://wiring.org.co)...
The 1.0 beta has a number of features arduino could do with and no doubt in a few years they'll adopt them like they have all the other good changes wiring has made over the years.
Title: Re: Arduino 1.0 Soon - What do you want to see?
Post by: madsci1016 on Sep 13, 2011, 11:43 pm
I've added a feature request to allow saving the hex file to project directory. Please go vote/comment on it so it gets support.

http://code.google.com/p/arduino/issues/detail?id=641
Title: Re: Arduino 1.0 Soon - What do you want to see?
Post by: Simpson_Jr on Sep 15, 2011, 12:21 am

I recently noticed I've collected quite a lot of libraries/examples.

Shown alphabetically... I can load anything up to the letter S using File->Examples, but I'm afraid
that letter will be gone soon as well. One screen of examples is what you get, scrolling down further is impossible.

I still can load examples starting with T and beyond using File->load followed by a manual search on disk,
but I wouldn't mind If I could just scroll down the examples instead.

Don't know whether the same happens using  File->Sketchbook, haven't written that much yet, but I noticed the same using Sketch->Import library.
Title: Re: Arduino 1.0 Soon - What do you want to see?
Post by: periphacker on Sep 17, 2011, 07:35 am
the ability to scroll down and up on the sketchbook list and libraries list.

I think it would be cool to have the same tech as the Intellisense feature of eclipse and visual studio.
Title: Re: Arduino 1.0 Soon - What do you want to see?
Post by: robtillaart on Sep 17, 2011, 10:39 am
Quote
Don't know whether the same happens using  File->Sketchbook, haven't written that much yet, but I noticed the same using Sketch->Import library

Yes it does,
but the sketchbook has the advantange you can use multiple (directory) levels to keep it browsable
Title: Re: Arduino 1.0 Soon - What do you want to see?
Post by: keeper63 on Sep 17, 2011, 08:35 pm
Hmm - will 1.0 be released when the Due is...?

http://arduino.cc/forum/index.php/topic,72522.0.html

I think things are going to get interesting real soon now... :)
Title: Re: Arduino 1.0 Soon - What do you want to see?
Post by: a.d on Sep 17, 2011, 08:50 pm
Quote
We've made some minor additions to the Arduino connectors to make them more flexible.


Does that mean they've fixed the pin spacing?
Title: Re: Arduino 1.0 Soon - What do you want to see?
Post by: EmilyJane on Sep 17, 2011, 09:14 pm

Quote
We've made some minor additions to the Arduino connectors to make them more flexible.


Does that mean they've fixed the pin spacing?


I think it just means they will flex to fit a variety of spacings.  :D
Title: Re: Arduino 1.0 Soon - What do you want to see?
Post by: EmilyJane on Sep 17, 2011, 09:23 pm

Quote
Don't know whether the same happens using  File->Sketchbook, haven't written that much yet, but I noticed the same using Sketch->Import library

Yes it does,
but the sketchbook has the advantange you can use multiple (directory) levels to keep it browsable


The OS X (Lion) version has a scrollable window for File->Sketchbook. I don't know about File->Examples as I don't have enough of those.