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Community => Bar Sport => Topic started by: chummer1010 on Feb 04, 2019, 02:48 pm

Title: Calling all US registered voters!
Post by: chummer1010 on Feb 04, 2019, 02:48 pm
Hey all,

I am working on a school project in which I am going to apply various fields of engineering to prototype an improved American voting system to improve voter security across the country. I am currently in the researching stage and created a survey to find data trends by state regarding voting requirements and overall feeling of security.

(https://i.imgur.com/gBtbSPE.png)

In the US, especially during the recent midterm election (state governors, senators, etc), there were multiple allegations of fraudulent activity within the system. In addition, voter ID laws in the US are quite inconsistent from state to state, and contain very relaxed requirements. The results of this survey will help me determine how American citizens feel about the current voting situation, and help me see their experiences.


The more responses, the better the data, so if you are a US registered voter I would greatly appreciate if you could take the time to fill this survey out! :) It should only take a couple minutes.

If you are not from the United States, I would love to hear how the voting process is ran for those of you in other countries worldwide! If you have any questions/comments feel free to ask!

https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/M9TKW6H (https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/M9TKW6H)

Thank you very much,

Marco
Title: Re: Calling all US registered voters!
Post by: larryd on Feb 04, 2019, 05:41 pm
We need to be on voter list (created from senses).
If not on list you need picture I.D.

With all the gerrymandering in the states, a minority vote in the US can easily win.


Title: Re: Calling all US registered voters!
Post by: Henry_Best on Feb 04, 2019, 08:13 pm
Here, in the UK the system is:

The local authority is required by law to make and maintain an up to date register of electors. This is a public document, usually viewable at the local library. They do this by sending each household a registration form annually. The form can be posted back (free of charge) or can be completed online.
Failure to register on the electoral roll or supplying false information can result in a £1000 fine.
The form asks the nationality of all people in the household over 16 years old. The voting age is 18, but there may be an election after the register is published and the person has reached 18 on or before the date of the election.
The nationality is required to determine which elections the person is entitled to vote in. UK and Irish nationals are eligible to vote in all elections (we have a reciprocal arrangement with the Republic of Ireland. I can and have voted in an Irish election when I lived there), EU nationals are eligible to vote in only some elections (local authority and EU parliamentary, but not national parliamentary elections). I don't know how this will change after the proposed brexit. Obviously, we won't have EU parliamentary elections.

At the polling station, you are only required to provide your name and address so that it can be checked that you are on the register and are entitled to vote. No ID is required. Your name is then ticked on the register so that you cannot vote more than once. If your name is not on the register you cannot vote.

You may apply for a postal vote if, for instance, you are housebound or not going to be in the area on the day of the election. Postal votes are scrutinised carefully, as these have been the vehicle for fraud in the past.
Title: Re: Calling all US registered voters!
Post by: Coding Badly on Feb 04, 2019, 08:59 pm

Marking Texas as "photo ID requested" is disingenuous.

Title: Re: Calling all US registered voters!
Post by: chummer1010 on Feb 04, 2019, 09:39 pm
Marking Texas as "photo ID requested" is disingenuous.


That graphic came from the National Congress of State Legislatures - http://www.ncsl.org/research/elections-and-campaigns/voter-id.aspx

Why would you say that? Is the requirement more or less than described?
Title: Re: Calling all US registered voters!
Post by: Coding Badly on Feb 04, 2019, 09:57 pm
Is the requirement more or less than described?
Texas does a good job of documenting state laws.  I encourage you to do your own research instead of taking the word of some schmuck on the internet.  Which appears to include the National Congress of State Legislatures.

Why would you say that?
Photo ID is required except when the voter can prove a hardship that prevents getting a state-issued-but-not-college photo ID.  In other words, for the vast majority of Texans, especially college students, photo ID is a requirement.  "Strict Photo ID" is a more accurate description.

I should have included: "voting in person".  However, the last time I tried to vote absentee the state failed to send a ballot.  From my perspective, voting in person is required to actually participate.

Title: Re: Calling all US registered voters!
Post by: chummer1010 on Feb 05, 2019, 04:16 am
Texas does a good job of documenting state laws.  I encourage you to do your own research instead of taking the word of some schmuck on the internet.  Which appears to include the National Congress of State Legislatures.

Photo ID is required except when the voter can prove a hardship that prevents getting a state-issued-but-not-college photo ID.  In other words, for the vast majority of Texans, especially college students, photo ID is a requirement.  "Strict Photo ID" is a more accurate description.

I should have included: "voting in person".  However, the last time I tried to vote absentee the state failed to send a ballot.  From my perspective, voting in person is required to actually participate.


Thank you very much! This kinda info is just what I was hoping for when doing this survey. Getting perspectives from citizens who experienced the voting process first-hand is essential to developing a solution.

It's interesting enough that after looking at the data already collected, this graphic stated that NY only required a matching signature. However the results showed an almost even split between nothing, matching sig, and photo-id.

Perhaps this means that a large issue is inconsistency.
Title: Re: Calling all US registered voters!
Post by: ardly on Feb 05, 2019, 02:46 pm
Mandatory reading;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_United_States_presidential_election_recount_in_Florida

Mandatory viewing;
Go to Youtube, search for "cgp grey electoral college" and take a look at all the videos on voting schemes e.g. "The Problems with First Past the Post"

Postal voting is of course wide open to abuse, an individual may dominate a household and gangs can coerce larger numbers.

Electronic voting is problematic because the counting is invisible and software could be rigged, manual checking needs to be possible.

Photo ID only proves that somebody has ID that has their photo on it, it does not prove that the ID is valid or that the person is actually entitled to vote.

Voting sounds simple but once you get into it it is hugely complicated particularly wen just 537 votes can swing a Presidential election.


Title: Re: Calling all US registered voters!
Post by: chummer1010 on Feb 06, 2019, 04:41 am
Failure to register on the electoral roll or supplying false information can result in a £1000 fine.
So it is required for every citizen to register?

The nationality is required to determine which elections the person is entitled to vote in. UK and Irish nationals are eligible to vote in all elections (we have a reciprocal arrangement with the Republic of Ireland. I can and have voted in an Irish election when I lived there), EU nationals are eligible to vote in only some elections (local authority and EU parliamentary, but not national parliamentary elections). I don't know how this will change after the proposed brexit. Obviously, we won't have EU parliamentary elections.
When you say EU nationals, are you referring to UK citizens that are from elsewhere in the EU? Or is citizenship not required to vote?
Title: Re: Calling all US registered voters!
Post by: chummer1010 on Feb 06, 2019, 04:51 am
Mandatory reading;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_United_States_presidential_election_recount_in_Florida

Mandatory viewing;
Go to Youtube, search for "cgp grey electoral college" and take a look at all the videos on voting schemes e.g. "The Problems with First Past the Post"

Postal voting is of course wide open to abuse, an individual may dominate a household and gangs can coerce larger numbers.

Thank you for the links! I have indeed dug a lot of research of allegations across quite a few states of tampered absentee ballots; this is something that I've struggled to brainstorm of a solution for.

Electronic voting is problematic because the counting is invisible and software could be rigged, manual checking needs to be possible.

Photo ID only proves that somebody has ID that has their photo on it, it does not prove that the ID is valid or that the person is actually entitled to vote.

Interestingly enough, I just discovered that the country of Estonia has an e-voting system that 30% of citizens use, along with 99% of their public services available online as well... Whether those numbers are true or not, and what services actually are provided online is beyond me (I have to look into this more).

My leading idea at the moment is to implement a system where you have to scan your ID to cast your vote. Police officers can run your drivers license for car information; I feel like there could be a way to use this idea in voting (hopefully minimally invasive).
Title: Re: Calling all US registered voters!
Post by: Qdeathstar on Feb 06, 2019, 05:15 am
You don't rig the system you rig the people. Eg, "you don't gotta burn the books you just remove them"


Come on guys..... has russia tought you nothing! Fake News!!!!
Title: Re: Calling all US registered voters!
Post by: Qdeathstar on Feb 06, 2019, 05:24 am
Quote
My leading idea at the moment is to implement a system where you have to scan your ID to cast your vote. Police officers can run your drivers license for car information; I feel like there could be a way to use this idea in voting (hopefully minimally invasive).

For me, you are creating a solution without a problem.  In fact, most of the "voting fraud" that has been been verified, and not just Trumped™️ up, involves not counting votes that should have been counted. Eg, destroying absentee ballots.  Not some miasma of phantom votes creeping out from the ether realm into republican nightmares. Why not just do what the afghans did, finger dip to vote. Low tech and effective.
Title: Re: Calling all US registered voters!
Post by: Qdeathstar on Feb 06, 2019, 05:33 am
Also, i did not need my ID to vote in VA in the midterms or presidential elections...
Title: Re: Calling all US registered voters!
Post by: chummer1010 on Feb 06, 2019, 10:33 am

For me, you are creating a solution without a problem.  In fact, most of the "voting fraud" that has been been verified, and not just Trumped™️ up, involves not counting votes that should have been counted.
Also, i did not need my ID to vote in VA in the midterms or presidential elections...
See that right there I feel is the issue. As of right now, the survey results show only 19% of people had to show an ID to vote... Of course the majority of whatever voter fraud is going to go un reported/noticed and not appear like a big issue...

Also I just wanted to say this is in no way in support of the Trump train, and whatever he's spewing out ab voter fraud; I hope that people (both dems and republicans) don't associate this project with right wing motives...
Title: Re: Calling all US registered voters!
Post by: ardly on Feb 06, 2019, 12:41 pm
You don't rig the system you rig the people. Eg, "you don't gotta burn the books you just remove them"
....
Yes and no. Chosing the system rigs the whole thing. First past the Post voting ensures that power will oscillate between two parties and the majority of people don't usually get what they want. Proportional Voting, in various forms, has its pros and cons. A higher legislature can impose Proportinal Voting on a lower legislature as means of rigging the system to pretty much ensure the lower legislature is always hung and so cannot pose a threat.

Gerrymandering is of course a classic way to rig the results.


....
Interestingly enough, I just discovered that the country of Estonia has an e-voting system that 30% of citizens use, along with 99% of their public services available online as well... Whether those numbers are true or not, and what services actually are provided online is beyond me (I have to look into this more).
...
Estonia has gone all out on e-voting etc.
You can even become an e-resident of Estonia.
https://e-resident.gov.ee/become-an-e-resident/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIktLl6YGn4AIV6BXTCh2ixg5aEAAYASAAEgLiffD_BwE

However they were subject to a large scale cyber attack by Russia.
Also if you don't have physical votes how do you know the system was not hacked, how do you have a recount?

As for Driver's Licences, not everybody has them. Also the aim of a Driver's licence is to prove a person has passed a driving test it does not necessarily prove that person is not a fake identity - though that sort of thing is not going to occcur on a large scale.

Title: Re: Calling all US registered voters!
Post by: Qdeathstar on Feb 06, 2019, 02:34 pm
Ardly,

That is theoretically possible. That voter fraud is undetected and unreported because IDs aren't show. Actually, though, it isn't.

The demographics of a region are constantly studied and analyzed. Voting patterns are constantly studied and analyzed. That lets you develop models for voting patterns and if there was widespread voting fraud, that would show up as an irregularity in the data.


Title: Re: Calling all US registered voters!
Post by: Henry_Best on Feb 06, 2019, 08:13 pm
So it is required for every citizen to register?
Every resident UK, Irish and EU citizen over 16 years old is required to register. They are NOT required to vote.
Quote
When you say EU nationals, are you referring to UK citizens that are from elsewhere in the EU? Or is citizenship not required to vote?
Resident EU citizens can vote in local and EU elections, but not national elections. UK citizenship is not required to vote in those elections, EU citizenship is required. This arrangement is reciprocal, as UK citizens resident in another EU nation can vote in their local and EU elections. All this may change soon, due to brexit.
Title: Re: Calling all US registered voters!
Post by: ardly on Feb 07, 2019, 11:37 am
...
The demographics of a region are constantly studied and analyzed. Voting patterns are constantly studied and analyzed. That lets you develop models for voting patterns and if there was widespread voting fraud, that would show up as an irregularity in the data.
Demographics are crude and will only show up very widespread fraud, or something strange and improbable.

There is a film about an assassin who visits graveyards and obtains details of boys who would be roughly his age had they not died in childhood. Using this information he obtains their birth certificates and then uses these to bootstrap his way to obtain s and other documentation in the names of the boys but with his photograph. In this way he could build multiple identities for himself with genuine ID. That loophole exists when Governments don't match deaths to births and then make checks before issuing ID etc.

Why is this relevant?

Well several thousand centenarians have been registering to vote in Turkey, including 165-year-old, first time voter, Ayse Ekici !
If you are going to create fake voters why choose people over 100, why not choose people of a more likely age as the assassin did?

I am just speculating but perhaps Turkey does link births and deaths but maybe this has only been done for people under 100. Hence you find real people (who will be in official records) but who are dead and would be more than 100 years old and register them to vote.

If these people were not over 100 years old probably nobody would have spotted anything.

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-turkey-election/turkish-opposition-challenges-electoral-list-containing-165-year-old-voter-idUKKCN1PC20M

Presumably these fake people vote by post or if they vote in person the people at the booths don;t know what age they are supposed to be.

Title: Re: Calling all US registered voters!
Post by: ardly on Feb 08, 2019, 04:44 pm
This is not about voter registration but it highlights the problem of who you vote for and whether or not they can be bad guys out to get rich quick ;
https://twitter.com/mattzarb/status/1093610201540894720
Title: Re: Calling all US registered voters!
Post by: GoForSmoke on Feb 12, 2019, 05:09 am
We need to be on voter list (created from senses).
If not on list you need picture I.D.

With all the gerrymandering in the states, a minority vote in the US can easily win.

You need ID and proof of residence to register to vote. Why another card that costs $28 and a day in line every 2 years?

Oh yeah, because MORONS are told that millions of people just show up and get a vote sandwich. In fake reality they do!