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Community => Bar Sport => Topic started by: GoForSmoke on Sep 27, 2019, 10:57 am

Title: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: GoForSmoke on Sep 27, 2019, 10:57 am
The look on Zelensky's face at the UN when his new friend tells him they will be getting along with Putin soon.

Gee, he was smiling before that.
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: Qdeathstar on Sep 28, 2019, 03:59 am
Yeah, well Putin is a winner. And most of the leaders on the west are losers.

Go figure.
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: GoForSmoke on Sep 28, 2019, 04:58 am
Putin is a thief who tears his own nation down to enrich himself and his gang. Trump is the same.

And Zelensy has just been invited to go deep sea fishing with his new friends.
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: ardly on Sep 28, 2019, 10:49 pm
Zelensy is a kid caught between two school bullies.
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: Qdeathstar on Sep 28, 2019, 11:35 pm
Quote
Putin is a thief who tears his own nation down to enrich himself and his gang. Trump is the same.
The difference is Putin is incredibly popular, Trump is not. He's a wannabe.
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: GoForSmoke on Sep 29, 2019, 01:03 am
Al Capone was "tremendously popular" in his time and place as was Adolph Hitler. What's your point, "comrade"?

 
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: Qdeathstar on Sep 29, 2019, 03:45 am
I guess that people follow people who are popular? It's pretty stupid to compare Putin to Hitler.
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: GoForSmoke on Sep 29, 2019, 06:42 am
Hitler was very popular in his own nation. Your criteria of best is popularity after all.

Stalin was very popular too, those who thought different died along with their family and village even if they were only thought to think different. Who will say that glorious leader is not a great guy?

And yeah I can understand how hardline right wing nutcases would want that everywhere.




 
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: Qdeathstar on Sep 29, 2019, 03:44 pm
There isn't a requirement to be "good guy" to be a "great leader" Trump and Putin both aren't "good guys" but only one of them is a "great leader" and absent any "great leaders" in the west the world will follow Putin.
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: Robin2 on Sep 29, 2019, 04:33 pm
but only one of them is a "great leader" and absent any "great leaders" in the west the world will follow Putin.
Is Putin a "great leader"?

The thing I like most about democracy is that the "leader" (whether good or bad) goes away peacefully at the end of his period in office.

...R
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: Qdeathstar on Sep 29, 2019, 07:51 pm
His people think he is.
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: ardly on Sep 29, 2019, 08:35 pm
His people think he is.
Putin was popular at one time, I am not so sure about now.
Stalin seems to be enjoying a resurgence in Russia, but then Russia did win the WW2 under him.

Trump is a nothing, but a divisive and dangerous nothing.

Who said "You cannot fool all of the people all of the time but you can fool some of the people all of the time and they are my demographic"?

Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: Robin2 on Sep 29, 2019, 08:38 pm
His people think he is.
History suggests that that is not sufficient evidence.

"Popular" yes. "Great" ?

...R
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: GoForSmoke on Sep 29, 2019, 11:54 pm
Who said "You cannot fool all of the people all of the time but you can fool some of the people all of the time and they are my demographic"?

Bitch McConnell. One of the bigger criminals behind Trump.
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: GoForSmoke on Sep 30, 2019, 12:04 am
Is Putin a "great leader"?

When your criteria for great is popular-or-else in your tightly controlled domain.

Hence the compares to other dictators who had goon-enforced popularity.

What Trump is about is "we can have that here too, our very own Oligarchy, what say?".

Hitler had Krupp and buddies behind him and Trump has Koch and friends pushing the same.

Putin is less popular because he figuratively eats people, even supporters, but it's too late for them.

Yeah that look on Zelensy's face! He's riding the tiger and just found out that the tiger is taking him to the jackal.
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: Qdeathstar on Sep 30, 2019, 02:35 am
Xi is very popular as well. No need to be in denial about the fall of western civilization folks, its happening.  It had a good run.
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: Qdeathstar on Sep 30, 2019, 02:40 am
great leaders are great leaders because people follow them. If people don't follow them they aren't leaders. What criteria would you use besides popularity?

Democracy is a popularity contest.
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: GoForSmoke on Sep 30, 2019, 04:42 am
Great leaders do great things and the crap leaders take their country into repression and ruin.

BTW, just how well is the Russian stock market doing these days?

Putin is popular wherever Putin controls the polls and the government to jail those who say different.

In the west we have dissent because we allow people the right to think and say what Russia, China, etc, do not.

I can understand Russians not being able to understand what freedom is except in vague dreams. It'd be something like being a strict religious nut unable to understand what dancing and smiling are about yet are able to forgive their pastor for being caught with a hooker.
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: Robin2 on Sep 30, 2019, 09:26 am
yet are able to forgive their pastor for being caught with a hooker.
Well ... we all know it was all HER fault.  :)

...R
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: GoForSmoke on Sep 30, 2019, 09:43 am
In any case I thought that the premise of "popular" meaning "better" or "great" needed a little reductio ad absurdum.

That includes the premise that repressed people give accurate answers. Centuries ago, swordpoint conversions made Islam popular and for a fact all those who disagreed were killed leaving only "positive" responses.

Who wants to live in a world run by sociopaths? Hail Putin and vote Trump to put everyone in line!
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: Qdeathstar on Sep 30, 2019, 01:45 pm
Popular doesn't mean great. Popular means great leader. There's a huge difference.

Also, the popularity polls i am referring are polls conducted by third parties (gallup, for instance) and therefore aren't as influenced by strong arming.  I think you should research this a bit more. You are allowing your personal beliefs to become fact.

Although, if you control the message you do control perception. Personally, maybe that's not a bad thing. All of our congress have polls up their ass afraid to move.


In any case, you never answered the question.

great leaders are great leaders because people follow them. If people don't follow them they aren't leaders. What criteria would you use besides popularity?
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: ardly on Sep 30, 2019, 01:55 pm
Popular doesn't mean great. Popular means great leader. There's a huge difference.

Also, the popularity polls i am referring are polls conducted by third parties (gallup, for instance) and therefore aren't as influenced by strong arming.  I think you should research this a bit more. You are allowing your personal beliefs to become fact.

Although, if you control the message you do control perception. Personally, maybe that's not a bad thing. All of our congress have polls up their ass afraid to move.


In any case, you never answered the question.

great leaders are great leaders because people follow them. If people don't follow them they aren't leaders. What criteria would you use besides popularity?
I think that people can be leaders, and be popular leaders, without being great.
It is really only when you look back at what a leader achieved that you can decide if they were great.
I truly great leader might follow a very unpopular course of action and be kicked out but history might show them to have been right.
With Climate Change looming we are in need of great leaders, what they do might well not be popular.
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: Henry_Best on Sep 30, 2019, 02:03 pm
If you use popularity as a measure of greatness then the Kim family and Robert Mugabe were/are great leaders.
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: Qdeathstar on Sep 30, 2019, 02:32 pm
If they aren't popular leaders they won't be great leaders for long.
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: GoForSmoke on Oct 01, 2019, 07:20 am
And yet Hillary Clinton won the popular US vote in 2016 by more than 1 million votes by REGISTERED voters.

Oh yeah, Russia has independent polling! And I am a ninja panda.

Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: Delta_G on Oct 03, 2019, 12:03 am
Democracy is a popularity contest.
And yet Hillary Clinton won the popular US vote in 2016 by more than 1 million votes by REGISTERED voters.
And fortunately, the US is NOT a democracy.  It's a representative republic.  It's not one big popularity contest, but a whole bunch of little popularity contests put together in a weighted way. 
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: GoForSmoke on Oct 03, 2019, 08:18 am
She won the DNC primary with a weighted way too, superdelegates for when people can't be trusted to make the right choice. What she did to Sanders...

But she was the lesser bad choice and would have an obstructionist Congress.

She would not be doing favors for nothing with Putin, Kim or Xi. She would not be dismantling the government root and branch as able.

What he said he did is a crime all by itself. Does he get to squawk and walk? Does his corrupt admin get to keep on functioning?


Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: Qdeathstar on Oct 03, 2019, 04:59 pm
I think Syria would have been way worse if Clinton was in office.  Iran would be better though. NK about the same as it is now, mainly slightly worse.

I know Trump doesn't have anything to show for his bluster over China trade, but with Clinton it would have never been brought up at all...
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: Qdeathstar on Oct 03, 2019, 05:00 pm
#opinions


I personally have no issues with him calling Ukraine or Russia and getting a little extra help... but I'm not voting for him because he is an ineffective leader.  Even when his party controlled the entire government he was too busy trolling dead men to get anything done.

Warren seems like the only adult running.  I don't like/agree with welfare for all but not everything in the primary doesn't make it to the general election much less through Congress.
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: Delta_G on Oct 03, 2019, 06:54 pm
Warren seems like the only adult running.
While I definitely don't agree with her on most policies, I can definitely agree with this statement. 
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: Robin2 on Oct 03, 2019, 09:04 pm
I don't like/agree with welfare for all
I'm not questioning your personal opinion but this seems to be a common attitude in the USA which is not mirrored at all in the UK or European Union. To my mind it makes the USA seem mean and heartless - especially as it is such a rich nation.

...R
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: Qdeathstar on Oct 03, 2019, 09:51 pm
It's mean and heartless to demand I give up what I've earned.
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: Delta_G on Oct 03, 2019, 10:18 pm
I'm not questioning your personal opinion but this seems to be a common attitude in the USA which is not mirrored at all in the UK or European Union. To my mind it makes the USA seem mean and heartless - especially as it is such a rich nation.

...R
The world is mean and heartless by nature.  To imagine that there will ever be a society of any sort where some don't have it better than others is to be completely naive of human nature. 
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: Robin2 on Oct 03, 2019, 10:43 pm
To imagine that there will ever be a society of any sort where some don't have it better than others is to be completely naive of human nature. 
There are haves and have-nots on this side of the Atlantic too. We just try to be a bit kinder to people in poor circumstances.

...R
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: ardly on Oct 03, 2019, 11:27 pm
The world is mean and heartless by nature.  To imagine that there will ever be a society of any sort where some don't have it better than others is to be completely naive of human nature.  
That is true. However banding together and providing a basic safety net for all makes sense, that is what welfare is. Anybody can fall ill or get injured.

There is a growing divide between rich and poor in the "developed" nations and that is not good. There is also the up and coming issue of automation and AI. That is why experiments have been taking place in various places with "universal income" to see what happens if everybody gets a basic salary as a right. There is nothing to stop them topping it up though.
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: GoForSmoke on Oct 04, 2019, 09:07 am
#opinions


I personally have no issues with him calling Ukraine or Russia and getting a little extra help... but I'm not voting for him because he is an ineffective leader.  Even when his party controlled the entire government he was too busy trolling dead men to get anything done.

Warren seems like the only adult running.  I don't like/agree with welfare for all but not everything in the primary doesn't make it to the general election much less through Congress.
+1 but in the meantime the exra-special alternate-reality spoiled yet desperate rich brat has the football.

Did you see the video there at the UN? Zelensky's reaction as he heard the news, from smile to shock so fast, LOL!
How soon no more Ukraine, huh?
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: GoForSmoke on Oct 04, 2019, 09:22 am
Subsidizing industries somehow isn't wealth redistribution either.
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: ardly on Oct 04, 2019, 09:42 am
Subsidizing industries somehow isn't wealth redistribution either.
Are you saying Universal Income is a subsidy to industries?
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: Robin2 on Oct 04, 2019, 02:07 pm
Are you saying Universal Income is a subsidy to industries?
I suspect @GoForSmoke was trying to point out that US politicians are perfectly happy to re-distribute taxpayers' wealth to industry yet strangely reluctant to re-distribute wealth to help the needy in society.

But I may be wrong.

...R
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: ardly on Oct 04, 2019, 02:29 pm
I suspect @GoForSmoke was trying to point out that US politicians are perfectly happy to re-distribute taxpayers' wealth to industry yet strangely reluctant to re-distribute wealth to help the needy in society.

But I may be wrong.

...R
I would agree with that. Some politicians might feel that helping industry supports jobs. However we are now seeing that companies are not paying their taxes, a small number of people are benefiting in a hugely disproportionate way from profits and there is a real risk of automation displacing a significant part of the population from work.
I think we are long way from AI being truly intelligent but quite close to AI being able to take over a lot of jobs.
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: Robin2 on Oct 04, 2019, 04:22 pm
I find it very strange. Given that there have been such huge improvements in productivity since (say) the year 1900 why doesn't everyone work a 3-day week? Just as much would be done as was done in 1900 - more probably. And there would be a lot less damage to the environment.

...R
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: Delta_G on Oct 04, 2019, 06:34 pm
The question has to be, how much do we do for those who won't do for themselves?   Do we raise them up to a place that is survivable?  Do we raise them up to a point where they are at the median?  Do we bring them up to the point that they can have the American dream without working?  And from where do we get all this money to shore up all of those who don't have enough. 

I find it interesting that even with all the "meanness" and "unkindness" that you say America shows to the poor, the poor people from all over the world are clamoring to get here.  They're not rushing to places with handouts.  They're coming to America because of opportunity.  Even a poor man can make it here if he applies himself.  Every man can be in control of his own destiny here. 

And I hear plenty of people talk about what they think holds them back.  But I see people right now in America that have gone from homeless on the street to multimillionaire CEO in one lifetime.  So it can be done.  And only here. 

So while we don't just give away money, we do at least leave you in control and with the ability to go and make it.  It just depends on you. 

I hear the pushback on this already.  But all I can say is see where people are going.  Even in Europe the poor clamor to come to America.  Why would they do that if it is really so horrible here and so kind there?
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: Delta_G on Oct 04, 2019, 06:42 pm
And from a philosophical point, let's look at something like healthcare.  Should everyone get the same?

So let's say everyone gets treated equally.  And when you get sick there are some things that will kill you and some we can cure.  And no matter who you are you get the same level. 

Well then a wealthy man gets sick.  He thinks that he can maybe save his own life if he could just throw enough money into finding a cure for himself.  Or maybe the cure is known but takes more resources than are available for us to provide to everyone.  Do we now tell this man that he isn't allowed to spend his money to save his life just because there are some other people who can't?  Just because we can't afford to provide this cure to everyone we restrict what this man is allowed to spend his own money on. 

That's obviously not kind.  We are telling a sick man who has the resources to save himself that he must die and he is not allowed. 

So let's allow him to do this.  Let's let him save himself.  Now the poor man cries that it isn't fair because he doesn't get the same cure. 

See, it's a catch 22.  You're going to have to tell someone that they have to die.  How do we decide who?  What should we do?  Should we tell the rich man to die?  Or should we accept that sometimes wealth gains you things. 
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: Delta_G on Oct 04, 2019, 06:52 pm
Kindness is going and helping someone. Kindness is not passing a law to force everyone else to help someone. 

If you think that everyone should have healthcare but you aren't out there spending your money to buy healthcare for people then you're just a hypocrite.  And don't tell me it's because you don't have the money.  If you're here then you have more than some.  Go and find them and give them what you have if you think that's the way it should work.  Be the change you want to see.

Asking the government to do it doesn't make it free.  It's the same situation.  So if you aren't giving all of your money to the poor then don't try to tell me that you think I should have to. 
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: ardly on Oct 05, 2019, 12:25 am
....
And I hear plenty of people talk about what they think holds them back.  But I see people right now in America that have gone from homeless on the street to multimillionaire CEO in one lifetime.  So it can be done.  And only here.
....
And China :)
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: ardly on Oct 05, 2019, 12:27 am
....
Even in Europe the poor clamor to come to America.  Why would they do that if it is really so horrible here and so kind there?
Really. I certainly know that European workers who have been to the States and feel rather sorry for American workers.
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: ardly on Oct 05, 2019, 12:29 am
And from a philosophical point, let's look at something like healthcare.  Should everyone get the same?
...That's obviously not kind.  We are telling a sick man who has the resources to save himself that he must die and he is not allowed.  
...
Where does that actually happen?
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: ardly on Oct 05, 2019, 12:35 am
....
If you think that everyone should have healthcare but you aren't out there spending your money to buy healthcare for people then you're just a hypocrite...
I fund other people's healthcare through taxes and I don't grudge a penny of it because the service will be there if I or mine need it.

Taxes are the cheapest and most efficient way of providing care because they remove the middlemen skimming a profit and they get economies of scale.

My taxes get spent on quite a few things I am not happy about but healthcare and education are not among them.
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: Delta_G on Oct 05, 2019, 12:39 am
Where does that actually happen?
It would have to if we really want to make it fair doesn't it.  At some point there is a maximum level that we can afford to give to everyone.  

That post wasn't a statement of how things are.  It's a philosophical question.  Would you tell the rich man that he can't spend his money to get a cure so that it is fair to the poor man.

Or do you tell the poor man that the rich man can have access to a cure that he can't have because of money.  

You can't have it both ways.  Either it's fair for everyone or the rich man can afford something that the poor man can't.  So which man do you give the bad news to?  

Too many people just think that *they* need to give us the healthcare.  The only reason that we don't have it is because *they* keep it from us.  *They* have it and *they* just hog it all.  But never a thought for who *they* really are or if *they* really even exist.  

I'm talking about a reality.  If we want to make it fair then we have to choose one of those two people to give the bad news to.  So which one dies?

Keep in mind that if we choose to keep it fair and tell the rich man that he can't have a cure, then the poor man dies as well.  He's a gonner either way.  So the question becomes, do we kill the rich man to keep it fair or do we let him use his money to have something the poor man can't?


It's a simple philisophical question.  Which man do you choose?
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: Delta_G on Oct 05, 2019, 12:43 am
It's not a blank philosophical question either.   This is the basic philosophical dilemma between  capitalism (the rich man can have what he can afford regardless of what the poor man has) or communism (we all get the same no matter what).   There is no option where you don't have to take something from someone if your goal is to make things fair. 
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: Delta_G on Oct 05, 2019, 12:45 am
I fund other people's healthcare through taxes and I don't grudge a penny of it because the service will be there if I or mine need it.

Taxes are the cheapest and most efficient way of providing care because they remove the middlemen skimming a profit and they get economies of scale.

My taxes get spent on quite a few things I am not happy about but healthcare and education are not among them.
But your taxes obviously aren't enough to completely level the playing field.  You still have so much more than so many others.  You can afford a computer.  Internet access.  These are the trappings of wealth to so many. 

And you sit back and say, oh I pay my taxes so I've given enough.  Now all of you need to give more so that this injustice stops.  Why do you sit back and enjoy the trappings of wealth while so many struggle.  And then claim that you think it should be "fair".  You could make it fair.  But you don't.  You expect a government to do it.  Be the change you want to see.  If you think that the poor man deserves more then give him more. 

Or is that not really the point?
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: ardly on Oct 05, 2019, 12:58 am
It would have to if we really want to make it fair doesn't it.  At some point there is a maximum level that we can afford to give to everyone.  

That post wasn't a statement of how things are.  It's a philosophical question.  Would you tell the rich man that he can't spend his money to get a cure so that it is fair to the poor man.

Or do you tell the poor man that the rich man can have access to a cure that he can't have because of money.  

You can't have it both ways.  Either it's fair for everyone or the rich man can afford something that the poor man can't.  So which man do you give the bad news to?  
It is not a philosophical question, it is a real life problem that has real life solutions.

Treatments are evaluated on their cost benefit. The benefit being the amount of extra life with a reasonable quality that the treatment brings. If the treatment brings little benefit or is excessively costly for the amount of benefit then it will not be available free to the patient. If the patient wants to spend their money on the treatment that is up to them, just like you can buy lottery tickets.

Granted the cost/benefit is to some extent an arbitrary judgement but in general the bar is set pretty high.

Recently I saw a TV program in which a young American woman was suffering from some unknown disease. She had seen many doctors in the US, was in debt and was often being chased by doctors for the debts. Finally she went to Italy where they sequenced her genome and diagnosed the problem all for free even though she was not an Italian citizen.



Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: Delta_G on Oct 05, 2019, 01:10 am
Treatments are evaluated on their cost benefit. The benefit being the amount of extra life with a reasonable quality that the treatment brings. If the treatment brings little benefit or is excessively costly for the amount of benefit then it will not be available free to the patient. If the patient wants to spend their money on the treatment that is up to them, just like you can buy lottery tickets.

OK, so you've chosen that the poor man gets a basic level and the rich man can have what he can afford. 

That's how I would hope most people would choose.  But it definitely leaves things unfair. 

So the next question becomes, who gets to decide.  Who decides when saving the poor man is worth it or not?  Who determines how much money one year of the poor man's life is worth?  I'm sure it is worth a lot more to the poor man himself than it is to anyone else.  What is it based on?  Who draws the line?
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: Qdeathstar on Oct 05, 2019, 02:16 am
Quote
Given that there have been such huge improvements in productivity since (say) the year 1900 why doesn't everyone work a 3-day week? Just as much would be done as was done in 1900 - more probably.
The poor are richer (or at least not poorer) and the rich are richer. The richer you are the more you consume. The more you consume the more you produce.
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: Delta_G on Oct 05, 2019, 02:22 am
Quote
The more you consume the more you produce.
I can't agree.  I know quite a few who consume much but produce nothing. 
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: GoForSmoke on Oct 05, 2019, 05:17 am
The richer you are the more you consume.
But far less as a percent of your income than people poor by comparison. The rest gets invested, could end up funding business or terrorism, cures or human trafficking or a villa for some great leader's latest GF or a locker-room tip scam. There's a big skim and what's left goes to dividends according to investment and bonuses according to order.


Quote
The more you consume the more you produce.
Not as any kind of rule at all. It's missing a word, the word can as in the more you can produce.

Also true, the more you can waste as in you can be a bigger waste by being a bigger consumer and only produce more trash and disingenuous platitudes.
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: GoForSmoke on Oct 05, 2019, 05:39 am
OK, so you've chosen that the poor man gets a basic level and the rich man can have what he can afford. 

So the next question becomes, who gets to decide.  Who decides when saving the poor man is worth it or not?  Who determines how much money one year of the poor man's life is worth?  I'm sure it is worth a lot more to the poor man himself than it is to anyone else.  What is it based on?  Who draws the line?
Without a common good you get conditions for pandemics to wars. And there are people who see those as opportunities.

Without a large society you don't get the medical and technical achievements we have, or the massive shortages.

Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: Robin2 on Oct 05, 2019, 10:03 am
I find it interesting that even with all the "meanness" and "unkindness" that you say America shows to the poor, the poor people from all over the world are clamoring to get here.
Two things about that. The people clamouring to get to the USA are those with more than average ambition. And poor in the USA can still be much better than poor elsewhere.

But that does NOT justify the gap between rich and poor in the USA.

Quote
But I see people right now in America that have gone from homeless on the street to multimillionaire CEO in one lifetime.  
At the expense of thousands of others with whom they were too mean to share their millions. Nobody needs an income greater than $250,000 per annum (and that's pretty generous).

Nobody becomes a millionaire due to his own work unless s/he is an entertainer or a footballer. Most millionaires get rich on the backs of the ordinary working man (or woman - perhaps especially low-paid women)

...R
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: Delta_G on Oct 05, 2019, 03:15 pm
Quote
And poor in the USA can still be much better than poor elsewhere.
So our poor are better off because we are so mean to them?  The kindness in other places has led to them being worse off?  That's kindness???


Quote
Most millionaires get rich on the backs of the ordinary working man (or woman - perhaps especially low-paid women)
I echo your comments to BrendaEM in the other thread. Cite examples of how folks were put down?   I've been around entrepreneurs my whole life.  What I see is mostly a bunch of hangers on that rise up along with the one who had the great idea.  Sure he doesn't just give it away to those who don't help.  But nobody does it all on their own.  And nobody is going to help them for free. 

Really who is meaner, the one who has but doesn't give or the one who doesn't participate but demands from those who do?
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: Robin2 on Oct 05, 2019, 04:43 pm
Really who is meaner, the one who has but doesn't give or the one who doesn't participate but demands from those who do?
IMHO neither is right.

But it is important not to ignore the plight of people in genuine need simply because you object strongly to a few freeloaders getting free lunches. A certain amount of freeloading may an unavoidable cost of helping those in genuine need in a dignified manner.

The real answer is to design a welfare system that supports people and also allows them to better themselves by their own efforts. The design of many welfare systems has the effect of financially penalising people who try to earn some extra cash. And the usual reason it is designed like that is to obstruct freeloaders. But because of its penal effect it actually encourages freeloading, or, put another way, it discourages effort.

Society has always had, and will always have freeloaders - and they are not necessarily poor. Some are just clever at pretending to be useful.

...R
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: Qdeathstar on Oct 06, 2019, 02:22 am
Macro level folks. The more you consume the more you produce. You produce more because of greed. You produce more because you can sell it.
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: Delta_G on Oct 06, 2019, 02:48 am
Macro level folks. The more you consume the more you produce. You produce more because of greed. You produce more because you can sell it.
Oh I got you.  You mean as a society.  Yeah, you gotta produce all that stuff to consume. 
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: Delta_G on Oct 06, 2019, 04:33 am
Oh I got you.  You mean as a society.  Yeah, you gotta produce all that stuff to consume. 
You know the more I think about it the more I think QDS has got the root of the problem here.  All the production and consumption, we see it as a cycle where each side fills the other but that isn't the case at all.  The consumption requires the production but doesn't drive it.  The production is from a limited pool of resources.  There's only so much oil and iron and gold and other stuff in the world.  And even with the renewable stuff there's only so much you can take at once without killing it.  Think of trees, you can cut down a few trees from your forest every year and never ever run out of trees, but the first time you cut a bunch of trees you suddenly have none left all at once. 

So all this consumption it does have a cost.  And arguing that it creates jobs is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.  Yeah, of course it creates jobs and that's not a good thing.  Who wants more jobs?  I wish I didn't need one.  And I wouldn't if I wasn't hooked on all the consumption.  The messed up thing is that the majority of what the average person spends money on besides basic survival is just more stuff to help them get to work or keep a job.  It's a vicious cycle.  You have to work so you can get to work.  It's madness I tells ya. 

Once upon a time we lived in caves and hunted and gathered for what we had.  I'm sure things were harder physically, but so were we.  I'm not so convinced that the primitive life wasn't the better one.  I don't know that I'd be able to live it as I am now.  Actually I'm sure I'm too soft.  But between the ancient ones and us, I'm not sure who should really envy whom.  At least then the things that killed you were natural and not the product of mankind breaking nuclear bonds for the purposes of making war. 

And I know not a one of those ancient cave dwellers was waking up at the break of dawn, scraping his face with a sharp knife and trudging off to do someone else's work for less than what it was worth.  Back then you may not have much but you were in total control of your own destiny.  If you are ambitious and gather more berries then you are the one who gets to eat them. 

If you really want my opinion of the current state of the human race, I think the only real solution for the situation this particular species of ape has gotten itself into will be a comet or a pandemic.  As evidence I give you the renaissance in Europe immediately following the plague as all the wealth and lands of the great houses that were now dead got split back up among the survivors. 
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: Qdeathstar on Oct 06, 2019, 05:17 am
Don't credit me with it. Robin posted long ago about if humans are really better off now than they were 300 years ago.

Thought it was a crazy statement at the time...

Producing does create jobs, but like anything there is diminishing returns... and with AI and machine learning we are really close to an inversion.... though I think it would be difficult to sustain for long before it all folded like a deck of cards.
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: Delta_G on Oct 06, 2019, 05:52 am
I've actually thought about it a lot lately.  My dream scenario for the world isn't zombie apocalypse.  Mine is that there is some cataclysm of physics that causes electricity to somehow just stop working in any way that humans can understand.  All the lights go out.  No generators.  No batteries.  If you want light then you better have a match. 

I think that one would play out in interesting ways. 
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: Qdeathstar on Oct 06, 2019, 06:02 am
Dunno, we also have a mastery of hydraulics now as a substitute.
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: Delta_G on Oct 06, 2019, 06:13 am
Dunno, we also have a mastery of hydraulics now as a substitute.
I can just imagine big hoses hung on old power poles carrying hydraulic power to the masses. 
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: Qdeathstar on Oct 06, 2019, 06:25 am
That's the beauty of hydraulics though. The economies of scale/scope mean a small hydraulic plant can create quite a bit of power. 

Weight I think would be the biggest trade off. Natural gas could provide lighting/heat efficiently and I imaging it is possible to create a hydraulic compressor for cooling...

But, really, if electricity stopped working we'd all be mush....
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: Robin2 on Oct 06, 2019, 11:29 am
Happiness is being content with what you have (and I did not originate that!)

It is chasing after more and more and more that is the cause of global warming and also most military conflicts.

...R
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: GoForSmoke on Oct 06, 2019, 12:36 pm
When what you produce is a mass extinction event just so you can think you're great, you're really just $#!+.


Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: ardly on Oct 07, 2019, 05:24 pm
It's not a blank philosophical question either.   This is the basic philosophical dilemma between  capitalism (the rich man can have what he can afford regardless of what the poor man has) or communism (we all get the same no matter what).   There is no option where you don't have to take something from someone if your goal is to make things fair.  
In my opinion pure capitalism and pure communism are both doomed to fail, but you don't need to make a binary choice between two extremes.

In Sweden if a man fathers a child he can get a year off with pay and his job will be there when he gets back. He also does not need to take the year when the child is born but can take it when the child is a bit older. Obviously the Swedish state pays but they feel it benefits their society and makes for a healthier happier population.

As far a health goes Capitalism and Insurance are about the worst way anybody could chose to fund medicine. It is expensive and stresses people at a time when they are ill. Insurance always has levels, exclusions, limits etc. Capitalism does not fund research into diseases of the poor, nor will it risk the large sums needed to possibly manage to bring new antibiotics to market.

As for chosing whether a poor man gets treatment or not; in general in an emergency it is all hands on deck, if you cut your arm off they will try to sew it back on. The problem is if you need expensive long term drugs or treatment. Then it is experts who decide if the treatment (not the person) is worth funding. Society as a whole decides if the funding is at a high enough level.

As for using hydraulics I have never seen a hydraulic light bulb so I think life would be limited without electricity and distribution would be a problem, though we do have piped water. However in Sweden a long time ago they found some very good iron ore deposits. The problem was that the mines kept flooding and they could not pump the water out (this is before the days of steam engines). The Swedes were good at using rivers to power machinery but the rivers were miles from the mines. They found a solution though. They built mechanical energy transmission lines!!! They built water wheels and then miles of wood levers made of large beams which transmitted the the mechanical energy to the mines to drive pumps.

Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: raymw on Oct 07, 2019, 11:52 pm
In the Uk, there were many hydraulic power systems. steam engines raised water to tanks on top of towers, and pipes ran to various factories in the area to power the machinery. Here's just one example http://www.whatsinwapping.co.uk/wapping-hydraulic-power-station/
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: Delta_G on Oct 08, 2019, 02:48 am
In Sweden if a man fathers a child he can get a year off with pay and his job will be there when he gets back. He also does not need to take the year when the child is born but can take it when the child is a bit older. Obviously the Swedish state pays but they feel it benefits their society and makes for a healthier happier population.
But we were talking about fairness.  How is this fair to the person who has no children?  Or worse yet, the one who can't?  He or she has to pay extra in taxes to subsidize years off for their neighbor who has 6. 
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: ardly on Oct 08, 2019, 11:09 am
But we were talking about fairness.  How is this fair to the person who has no children?  Or worse yet, the one who can't?  He or she has to pay extra in taxes to subsidize years off for their neighbor who has 6.  
It is perfectly fair. Why should the neighbour who clearly has no problems with fertility subsidise the couple next door to have IVF. Why should somebody in good health pay for somebody else to have a lung transplant and then expensive immune supression treatment for life.

The reason is because no individual knows what fate has in store for them and the best thing for society and even individuals is to provide a "reasonable" level of collective care. Society decides what is reasonable. In Sweden they obviously think that looking after children will make for a better society and possibly even save them money; less marriage breakups, better adjusted children, less crime.

Some people seem to fixate on the idea that people will abuse the system but in reality I think abuse is really very small.

Take your example of births. As well as fantastic parental leave Sweden has one of the safest maternity systems in the world. You would expect a booming population and it does indeed have one of the highest birth rates in Europe but it is only 1.85 births per woman, so hardly excessive. Somebody having 6 children would be helping them keep their population stable!

There will always be some wastage in any system through abuse but it makes no sense at all to spend ten times the amount to avoid it and make everybody less happy in the process.
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: ardly on Oct 08, 2019, 11:24 am
In the Uk, there were many hydraulic power systems. steam engines raised water to tanks on top of towers, and pipes ran to various factories in the area to power the machinery. Here's just one example http://www.whatsinwapping.co.uk/wapping-hydraulic-power-station/
I was expecting people to ask is it April 1st.
You are still going far too high tec. though.
Think pre-steam, think wood, think 1500s.

Here is a Swedish Stangenkunst
(https://forum.arduino.cc/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=637990.0;attach=327451)

I have been thinking about mechanical light bulbs. They might actually be possible. If you throw in a bit of chemistry is there any reason you cannot convert mechaninical energy into light by mixing, compressing or pounding some alchemic mixture. It would be very inefficient and the bulbs would be big but it might be possible :)
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: Delta_G on Oct 08, 2019, 03:22 pm
Quote
It is perfectly fair.
I saw your argument that you think it is a good thing, but none of that made it sound fair. 

Take the smoker who's lung cancer we'd be subsidizing.  Why should I pay for something he knowingly did to himself?   If you want to smoke that's your business but deal with the consequences yourself.  I like to spend my money on useful things and some old codger with lung cancer because he was too stupid to quit smoking doesn't sound like a good investment to me. 
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: Delta_G on Oct 08, 2019, 03:29 pm
And I'm all for this stuff if you want it.  If you think paying for old smokers to get chemo is helpful to society then go find old codgers to save.  The thing I have issue with is the idea that you're going to force everyone by threat of law to pay for the old codgers lung cancer.   That's the part I don't like.  If you want to pay it hen you go pay it.  It's not something I want to buy.   

See in the US even with our messed up system, nobody stops you from finding old men that have ruined their health and rewarding them with money and longer lives.  It's just that you do it with your own money and not other peoples money.

And until I see people doing that then I don't actually believe you're actually that dedicated to the cause. 
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: ardly on Oct 08, 2019, 03:47 pm
I saw your argument that you think it is a good thing, but none of that made it sound fair. 

Take the smoker who's lung cancer we'd be subsidizing.  Why should I pay for something he knowingly did to himself?   If you want to smoke that's your business but deal with the consequences yourself.  I like to spend my money on useful things and some old codger with lung cancer because he was too stupid to quit smoking doesn't sound like a good investment to me. 
Ah, so you don't smoke, don't drink, don't overeat, don't drive, don't do sports, don't work in a long list of risky occupations, don't have sex, don't have a medical history, don't have parents with a medical history. In short don't have a life. Well in that case medical insurance is perfect for you because you don't need it :)

The old codger may have lung cancer but he may have got it from asbestos not smoking and either way being old he has probably paid a fair bit in tax and probably will not last long. A newborn with a congential defect may be a far worse "investment" as you put it.

It is not a case of betting on or investing in individuals. What you should be doing is looking at the mass statistics and saying what is the most economical way of ensuring that I and the people important to me get a good level of care when they need medical attention - because you and they will need it.


Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: Delta_G on Oct 08, 2019, 04:22 pm
Ah, so you don't smoke, don't drink, don't overeat, don't drive, don't do sports, don't work in a long list of risky occupations, don't have sex, don't have a medical history, don't have parents with a medical history. In short don't have a life. Well in that case medical insurance is perfect for you because you don't need it :)
Where did I say any of that?  I never said that there was no risk in my life.  Only that I take my own responsibility for the risks I create. 

I pay insurance on my car because I know it is a risk.  I have a friend who doesn't drive and never will (he's blind) and he doesn't have to pay car insurance because he doesn't need it.  We still use a risk pool, we just have the contributions set a little more fairly.  We charge a little more for the guy who drives the fiberglass sports car because he's a lot more likely to get hurt in that thing.  We were all smart enough to not drive something like that.  But in his calculation it is worth it. 

That's the rub.  Each man gets to calculate his own risk.  The guy with the Corvette gets to have the thrill of driving the 'Vette, but he also pays the additional cost of the risk.  That's fair.  He got the benefit AND paid the cost.  If I am going to nationalize his risk and say that we all have to pay extra for the Corvette guys, then are they going to let me take a spin in it whenever I want?  If I share the risk, do they also share the benefit?


Quote
The old codger may have lung cancer but he may have got it from asbestos not smoking and either way being old he has probably paid a fair bit in tax and probably will not last long.
That's a lot of may haves and probablys.  I'd rather take that on an individual basis than to just pass a law that says everybody gets one. 



Quote
A newborn with a congential defect may be a far worse "investment" as you put it.
May be.  I know that feels bad emotionally, but what is the real cost-benefit to society?  Since that and not fairness seems to be where the metric has shifted.  Those kind of decisions need to be made logically. 


Quote
It is not a case of betting on or investing in individuals. What you should be doing is looking at the mass statistics and saying what is the most economical way of ensuring that I and the people important to me get a good level of care when they need medical attention - because you and they will need it.
I think your failure isn't in the allocation of this medical resource, but in your thinking it a necessity.  Mankind has always quested for immortality, and he has always paid the ultimate price for it.  All this new-fangled medicine is just setting you people up for failure.  Sure you can cure a few things that would have at one time been fatal.  You've saved a few people.  But you've also created the anti-depressants and the statins and all the wonderful side effects coming from those. 

If you want to know what I think makes this world as a whole better then I think all that needs to go.  This Earth only really has one big problem and that's that there are WAY too many people on it.  And all this *stuff* that we think is making our lives *better* is only killing the lot of us faster.  And a whole lot of other species with us.  No, the answer to making this Earth a better place for the people living on it is not for more people to live here, the answer is for about 80% of those people to stop living on it.  The  good answer isn't better medical care.  The good answer is pandemic. 

From a more global point of view I mean.  That might suck really bad as an individual.  But if you want to take a *what's good for society* kind of line...
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: ardly on Oct 08, 2019, 04:31 pm
....
That's the rub.  Each man gets to calculate his own risk.  The guy with the Corvette gets to have the thrill of driving the 'Vette, but he also pays the additional cost of the risk.  That's fair.  He got the benefit AND paid the cost.  If I am going to nationalize his risk and say that we all have to pay extra for the Corvette guys, then are they going to let me take a spin in it whenever I want?  If I share the risk, do they also share the benefit?
....
Sorry but you have a very naive view of how insurance works. You are not calculating your own risk. You are paying a premium to ensure that statistically the insurance company makes a profit. You are paying a premium that includes paying for people who do not have insurance.


Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: Qdeathstar on Oct 08, 2019, 05:06 pm
You don't have to transmit hydrolic power. A tank can be rolled many miles.
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: Delta_G on Oct 08, 2019, 05:31 pm
Sorry but you have a very naive view of how insurance works. You are not calculating your own risk. You are paying a premium to ensure that statistically the insurance company makes a profit. You are paying a premium that includes paying for people who do not have insurance.
Sure but my point is that I have a choice.  You have to pay for those that abuse the system either way.  But at least here I have a choice of saying that I don't want to drive a car and I don't want to pay any car insurance. 

I think the real injustice is in telling an individual that they MUST participate in your system because YOU think it is best.  I think forcing people to do things is wrong.  I think that the job of a government is to regulate interactions between individuals, not to make certain that no man feels the pain of his own decisions. 

You think I have a naive view of the insurance company.  I think you have a naive view of a government.  You see it as this thing that exists of it's own and can give or take away whatever it wants.  But really it's just a document and a bunch of people just like you and me.  And it has no more power than any of us to create or destroy.  I like a world with a more limited role for the state.  I like a world where the state is there to settle disputes between neighbors, but isn't there to force any belief or system down anyone's throat.  And if one group wants to get together and be a collective around their health care then they are free to do that.  And if someone else doesn't want to participate in that and is OK with not having that access then they are free to do that. 


I get what you are saying about paying collectively for health care.  I even think it is a good idea.  What I don't think is that it is the government's place to mandate it.  You don't need a government to make this work.  If you want a single payer system then open up a non-profit health insurance company and make your prices so low that everyone gets on board.  How is that any different?  People pay in the same amount, just to the specific enterprise and not the government at large, so there's no possibility that the money gets diverted to say, bombing people.  The same amount of money is available to pay doctors, but there's no bottomless hole of debt to leave for our children if the money isn't there. 

All you have to do is find these mythical *they* people that you think are going to be willing to run that whole thing for no pay and no profit.  But if all of y'all really believe in it so much then shouldn't you be willing?

Either way, this doesn't require a law or a government.  It's something that you could just do if you really believed in it.  And then at least it would be fair.  Nobody would be forced to do something against their will. 
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: Robin2 on Oct 08, 2019, 05:40 pm
I pay insurance on my car because I know it is a risk.  
Most people pay for car insurance because it is a legal obligation. And the reason for that is the risk that cars pose for other people.

If you don't drive you are not likely to injure someone else with a car.

But just by existing you face all sorts of risks - such as poor health, sports injuries, unemployment etc. These are the things that "welfare" (in the broadest sense of the word) should provide for.

Quote
I think your failure isn't in the allocation of this medical resource, but in your thinking it a necessity.  Mankind has always quested for immortality, and he has always paid the ultimate price for it.  All this new-fangled medicine is just setting you people up for failure.  Sure you can cure a few things that would have at one time been fatal.  You've saved a few people.  But you've also created the anti-depressants and the statins and all the wonderful side effects coming from those.  

If you want to know what I think makes this world as a whole better then I think all that needs to go.  This Earth only really has one big problem and that's that there are WAY too many people on it.  And all this *stuff* that we think is making our lives *better* is only killing the lot of us faster.  And a whole lot of other species with us.  No, the answer to making this Earth a better place for the people living on it is not for more people to live here, the answer is for about 80% of those people to stop living on it.
This part I agree with. And if it implies that we may be striving for too much welfare-health-care then I won't argue against that. The medical industry is just as greedy as the automobile industry and even better at promising things it can't deliver.

I do hope we can solve problems without a pandemic - we certainly have sufficient intelligence to do so. It is the will that is missing. Jared Diamond's "Collapse" is scary reading.

...R

Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: Delta_G on Oct 08, 2019, 05:49 pm
we certainly have sufficient intelligence to do so
No, we don't.  And thinking we do is what brought us here in the first place. 

Evolution has been working its magic for a few billion years all based on the idea of trying a whole bunch of different things and letting the ones that don't work out so well die off.  It's heartless, but it works.  And now here we come along thinking we're going to make it so that those failed experiments still live and reproduce.  And we don't think that will upset the system?


How many people die every year from cancers?  All you have to do is open your eyes and see that the prevalence has risen sharply over the last century.  You don't think that might have something to do with the amount of long lived radionuclides that we've scattered across the whole of the planet because we once thought ourselves "intelligent enough" to make a weapon that would stop all war. 
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: Robin2 on Oct 08, 2019, 07:53 pm
No, we don't.  And thinking we do is what brought us here in the first place. 

Evolution has been working its magic for a few billion years
I disagree. The problem is that we are not using our perfectly adequate intelligence to recognise and overcome our destructive evolutionary urges.

That may include the urge to live forever - which is certainly not one of my own goals.

...R
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: Delta_G on Oct 08, 2019, 08:06 pm
I disagree. The problem is that we are not using our perfectly adequate intelligence to recognise and overcome our destructive evolutionary urges.

That may include the urge to live forever - which is certainly not one of my own goals.

...R
The problem is that we think we can out-think it. 

Each and every time we have some "smart" idea and try to make things better we just end up bringing about some unintended consequence and things end up worse. 

Mother nature doesn't need our "help".  Not even to correct the damage that we've done in trying to be "helpful". 
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: Robin2 on Oct 08, 2019, 10:54 pm
The problem is that we think we can out-think it. 
Now there you have hit the nail squarely on the head :)


Of course another interpretation is that we don't want to face up to reality  - we are most effective deceivers when we deceive ourselves.

...R
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: Robin2 on Oct 08, 2019, 11:52 pm
Just came across this talk about societal collapse by Jared Diamond on Youtube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IESYMFtLIis)

...R
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: GoForSmoke on Oct 09, 2019, 05:21 am
But we were talking about fairness.  How is this fair to the person who has no children?  Or worse yet, the one who can't?  He or she has to pay extra in taxes to subsidize years off for their neighbor who has 6. 
Do they also live in isolation from society?

Is it fair that the ones who start off well and get support should lord it over the ones who have not?
That someone should get paid extremely well because of who they are while others work hard and get far less?

Why does some guy who is killing himself working, dragging down millions a year think that everyone who works for them should work just as hard for less than 60K on average? That is privileged attitude, half-killing yourself should be worth half of millions.

Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: Delta_G on Oct 09, 2019, 02:43 pm
If the business fails will that same worker also share in the loss?  Or will he just get another job?   Why should someone who just does one step on the line make the same as the guy who had the idea and risked his fortune to build the business?
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: Delta_G on Oct 09, 2019, 02:48 pm
Let's imagine a couple of cave men.  Og and Ooga will be their names. 

One day Og decides that he really likes strawberries.  So he spends weeks clearing a spot and scratching up the ground and plants some strawberries.  If they don't grow he's risked his food because while he was planting he wasn't gathering.  It's a pretty big risk. 


But it pays off and pretty soon everyone else is trading him other food for his berries.  Before long he's in a great spot.  What we might call wealthy. 

Now some years go by and there's a downturn for Ooga.  They had a bad year and didn't kill a mammoth.  His family is hungry. 

1.  So he goes to Og and says hey I'll help you pick the strawberries if I can keep a few. 

Or

2.  So he goes to Og and says it's not fair that Og has this and he doesn't.  Why was Og just ordained to have all these berries.  And he demands that Og give up half of his field of berries to him. 


Which one sounds fair. 
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: ardly on Oct 09, 2019, 02:59 pm
If the business fails will that same worker also share in the loss?  Or will he just get another job?   Why should someone who just does one step on the line make the same as the guy who had the idea and risked his fortune to build the business?
The big companies are all floated. The Directors usually escape with big bucks in their pockets, the shareholders (often workers pension funds)  suffer and the workers are out of a job usually at short notice.
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: Delta_G on Oct 09, 2019, 03:05 pm
The big companies are all floated. The Directors usually escape with big bucks in their pockets, the shareholders (often workers pension funds)  suffer and the workers are out of a job usually at short notice.
The big multinationals maybe.  But that only accounts for a tiny percentage of the actual businesses out here. 

If you really think that all business owners walk away with millions then you've obviously never been in business. 

As ours went down I worked for a considerable length of time, almost a year, with no salary so I could keep the lab techs paid.  Because I'm nice?  No, because they wouldn't have stayed without getting paid and I wanted to try to save the company.  I am still paying off the HELOC that I took to pay the bills while that was going on.  Not a one of the lab techs felt any pain except having to look for a job once we finally hit bankruptcy. 

And you think they should have had the same reward had we succeeded?  I take all the risk but everyone gets equal in the reward?  I didn't feel that way.  And my techs certainly didn't.  They're all happy that they're not making these payments with me. 
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: Delta_G on Oct 09, 2019, 03:08 pm
Is it fair that the ones who start off well and get support should lord it over the ones who have not?

You say "start off".  But when did they "start".  At what random point are you deciding to start history and assume that everything before that was set capriciously?

The analogy is this, imagine a man who turns on the television halfway through a Nascar race.  And then he gets upset because some of the cars are starting out on the lead lap, some are forced to start a lap behind, and this one poor guy had to start out with a wrecked car.   
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: GoForSmoke on Oct 09, 2019, 03:12 pm
If the business fails will that same worker also share in the loss?  Or will he just get another job?
That's true, if the business fails then the owner must be shot.

Quote
Why should someone who just does one step on the line make the same as the guy who had the idea and risked his fortune to build the business?
I was tearing down a bullshit line handed to me by a business owner who got it in an email. It's the usual focus on one chosen aspect of a situation while leaving 90% of what's relevant out of the matter.

If the business fails then the owner may be the reason why. When the line worker finds a new job it is without whatever that worker built up in the failed on including pension but hey, workers aren't real people like owners anyway.

If the business man does badly enough, screws people left and right while having more bankruptcies than failed marriages he might become President and fail the entire country or worse.
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: ardly on Oct 09, 2019, 03:23 pm
...
If the business man does badly enough, screws people left and right while having more bankruptcies than failed marriages he might become President and fail the entire country or worse.
ROFL. But they can become President only if they are stable geniuses with great unmatched wisdom.
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: GoForSmoke on Oct 09, 2019, 03:25 pm
You say "start off".  But when did they "start".  At what random point are you deciding to start history and assume that everything before that was set capriciously?

I knew enough who started the attitude and acts in public grade school. But they were getting kicked down by the private school kids so that makes it "the world is not fair" GOOD to do.

Is that history enough for ya? Can you figure it out from there or do you need help?

In 1986 the US SAT test got dumbed down after US scores dropped following the Reagan Public Education Rape. It was cheat errrr change the test or give regular kids as decent chance and the response was change the test and screw the middle class and poor who didn't EARN their kids a decent education.

We've had over 30 years of that since and it's worked out well for the Everything For The Rich Party, their base is uneducated and dumb as dogs voting for the people who screwed them down and tells them what to think.
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: GoForSmoke on Oct 09, 2019, 03:31 pm
ROFL. But they can become President only if they are stable geniuses with great unmatched wisdom.
And have a voting base dumb enough to believe it. 

But then when you can believe that the Book of Genesis is ==literally== true, what's left?
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: Qdeathstar on Oct 09, 2019, 03:51 pm
Everyone has an opportunity to work for their self, but they choose not to for many reasons.  When people complain about rich people who take down millions while their workers are only making 60k are really complaining about success. How dare he be successful. You ignore all the risk undertaken before his business was proven successful. For every 1 successful business there are 10 failed ones. A guy that makes it has earned his millions. If he didn't exist his employees wouldn't be employed.
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: GoForSmoke on Oct 09, 2019, 04:10 pm
What a load of crap!

Some JERK expects people to work as hard as he does for less than 2% of pay now gets turned into "How dare he be successful."

Are you that stupid or do you think we are?

BTW, it was the businessman who made the complaint, not the workers.
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: Robin2 on Oct 09, 2019, 04:16 pm
Why should someone who just does one step on the line make the same as the guy who had the idea and risked his fortune to build the business?
This pre-supposes a lot of stuff. For example, would the world have been better off if he had not started the business? Or, why should we applaud someone who takes a business risk for the principal purpose of making himself rich?

I don't have a problem with some people having larger salaries or more wealth than others. I just think there should be a limit to the acceptable difference. Nobody needs more than $10million.

And to pick up on the Og and Ooga story ... "Which one sounds fair?"   Ooga is in difficulty that's not of his making and Og has far more than he needs. I can't see anything wrong with Og giving stuff to Ooga. And, yes, it would be a decent thing if Ooga would do something for Og in return.

And, from Reply #98 ...
Quote
When people complain about rich people who take down millions while their workers are only making 60k are really complaining about success.
When people take down millions it has to come from somewhere - basically from the sweat of the guy that is only paid a measly 60k by a business that could easily afford to pay him 3 or 4 times as much.

IMHO it is quite wrong to associate excessive wealth with "success". The proper association is with "greed".

Those greedy people are often psychopaths who manipulate everyone, including public opinion, so they can satisfy their own needs without any regard for the plight of anyone else. And those people who mould public opinion to further their own interests are the people who, for example, deny global warming and put our children and grandchildren at risk of starvation or conflict. Watch Jared Diamond in the link I posted in Reply #87

...R
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: Qdeathstar on Oct 09, 2019, 04:23 pm
Quote
Some JERK expects people to work as hard as he does for less than 2% of pay now gets turned into "How dare he be successful."

Are you that stupid or do you think we are?
Well, I mean, "we" must be pretty stupid to work for the "jerk" if "we" really feel it is wrong. I admire the jerk who inspires fools.
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: Qdeathstar on Oct 09, 2019, 04:26 pm
Success is driven partially by greed, no doubt. And I am fine with that.
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: GoForSmoke on Oct 09, 2019, 04:31 pm
I don't have a problem with an owner getting rich honestly. It can be done, I've written software to help it be done.

But when the owner abuses the workers along the way, the owner is an inhuman jerk who deserves to die painfully.

Quote
Well, I mean, you must be pretty stupid to work for the "jerk" if you really feel it is wrong.Well, I mean, you must be pretty stupid to work for the "jerk" if you really feel it is wrong.
Spin it how you want comrade. You're wrong and you know it.
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: Delta_G on Oct 09, 2019, 04:56 pm
I knew enough who started the attitude and acts in public grade school. But they were getting kicked down by the private school kids so that makes it "the world is not fair" GOOD to do.

Is that history enough for ya? Can you figure it out from there or do you need help?
So they just got the private school and you didn't?  It just came down that way for no reason.  Well why didn't you go to the private school then if it was so much better. 

That's a rhetorical question. It was because they had more money.  Was that because they started off ahead?  Or are you starting your history at the birth of the generation with no respect for what the parents or family has done. 

Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: Delta_G on Oct 09, 2019, 04:58 pm
So I guess my analogy was a little off.  You're more like a guy turning on the tele for an endurance race right at the point where your favorite driver is switching in and getting mad because he doesn't get to start even with the leaders.  Why don't they stop the race at the driver change and line everyone back up evenly at the start line? 
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: Delta_G on Oct 09, 2019, 06:06 pm
I think the thing that the labor needs to realize is that labor sets the wages, not management.  The business owners need labor to get the work done.  It is only natural that they try to do that as cheaply as possible.  That's what we'd expect from every other facet of the business. 

It's not management that you are competing with, it's your neighbor.  If he is willing to do the job for less than you then that sets the price.  If you all refused to do the job for less than $100K then they'd have to pay that, shut down, or move to a place where the people don't expect as much. 

You always have the option of self sufficiency.  All a human needs to survive is water, food, and shelter.  All of that you can create yourself.  You don't have to participate in this labor economy.  You choose to because it is easier, more lucrative, and gains you a lot more leisure time.  So it is a choice to go into this system that you think is so horrible.  And it's a good choice.  Why should you have so much animosity towards those that allowed you that?

The fundamental failure of communism was the idea that the means of production just existed of their own accord and those who controlled them gained that control... I don't know how they think it happened. 

What happened when they said that the means of production should belong to the people no matter who created them.  Compare and contrast what happened to the means of production and the average worker under both systems. 

Who advanced the means of production more, USSR or USA?   

Which lot of workers ended up in a better place, on average? 

Which system lasted?  Which system fell on its face?   

Why would I create new means of production if I stand to gain no benefit from that? 

The fact is that everything you're describing has been tried before.  And it failed. 

The natural order of things has been going for millions of years.  And it will always be the way it is.  You can try to change it, but it's like trying to hold a fistful of sand. 
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: Qdeathstar on Oct 09, 2019, 07:57 pm
Quote
I think the thing that the labor needs to realize is that labor sets the wages, not management.  The business owners need labor to get the work done.  It is only natural that they try to do that as cheaply as possible.  That's what we'd expect from every other facet of the business.
Indeed. Labor sets the wages, management sets the quantity of employment demanded at that wage. So labor can demand high wages for only a short period of time. Management can also demand low wage and labor will be willing to work limited hours at that low wage.

It's not quite as neat as that, but close enough for coffee.


Quote
You always have the option of self sufficiency.  All a human needs to survive is water, food, and shelter. 

Indeed. That's why a laugh about poverty statistics within then United States.

Quote
The fundamental failure of communism was
Poor management of resources. Well managed communism can work.

Quote
Who advanced the means of production more, USSR or USA?   
China?! Why are we taking about USSR for?


Quote
Which system lasted?  Which system fell on its face?
Democracy is failing, not communism. A communist state fell. Communism is alive and well.   
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: Robin2 on Oct 09, 2019, 08:06 pm
The business owners need labor to get the work done.  It is only natural that they try to do that as cheaply as possible.  That's what we'd expect from every other facet of the business. 

It's not management that you are competing with, it's your neighbor.  If he is willing to do the job for less than you then that sets the price. 
It is very common for bullies to make the victims believe that the bullying is the fault of the victim. This is just another version of the same nonsense. "Your low wage is not the fault of the greedy boss, it's the fault of your neighbour"

The greedy fat cats want everyone to believe this because it smooths the way for the fat cats to get rich

...R
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: Delta_G on Oct 09, 2019, 10:59 pm
I'm not saying it's your neighbors fault.  Just that you are in competition with the neighbor.  As long as you keep just blaming the "fat cats" and thinking you have no power then you are indeed powerless.  You and the neighbor just keep competing and driving down wages as you each offer to do the job for less.  Classic supply and demand. 

But what happens when you and your neighbor band together and decide that neither of you is willing to work for such a low wage.  Now you have the power over the "fat cat".  He can't get fat without labor. 

You just have to be careful, because at some level you make it economically advantageous for the boss to move to a place where people demand less.  So it's a bit of a balancing act.
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: Delta_G on Oct 09, 2019, 11:05 pm
I really don't like the idea of breaking this into an "us" and "them".  They are the "fat cats" and they have it all. 

But they only have it because we gave it to them.  Very few of the "fat cats" got there by stealing or robbing or piracy.  Every time you go out and enjoy the conveniences of modern life you support the "fat cat".  It's a choice. 

Every time you go to the grocery instead of growing your own, you line their pockets.  Every time you save a little money by going to the big chain store instead of the mom and pop grocery, you line their pockets.  Every time you jump on your internet to enjoy talking to the wider world, you line their pockets.  Every time you buy a new device to keep you in touch, you line their pockets. 

And not a single one of those things you do out of real necessity.  Those are all conveniences and luxuries in the grand scheme of things.  I know you think your TV is a necessity, but I can show you lots of people doing just fine without one.  Each of those things is done out of pure self interest, the same thing that drives the "fat cats". 

It's all a choice.  If you're really upset that they get rich, then stop giving them money.  If enough people stop giving them money, then they won't be rich anymore. 
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: Delta_G on Oct 09, 2019, 11:52 pm

(https://forum.arduino.cc/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=637990.0;attach=327650)

(https://forum.arduino.cc/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=637990.0;attach=327652)
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: GoForSmoke on Oct 10, 2019, 01:06 am
So they just got the private school and you didn't?  It just came down that way for no reason.  Well why didn't you go to the private school then if it was so much better. 

That's a rhetorical question. It was because they had more money.  Was that because they started off ahead?  Or are you starting your history at the birth of the generation with no respect for what the parents or family has done. 

I wrote about their attitudes which they take into business and you decide it's about what I didn't get?

I think that my grandfather losing his farm when the banks failed in 1929-1930 should tell of all the respect I have for a rigged system. All the crops money in the bank and suddenly your money is gone yet they still have your mortgage and expect you to pay or lose it. FUNNY HOW BANKERS DON'T RESPECT WHAT OTHERS HAVE DONE.

The people who make me sick are the shits that calculate people's worth by the money they have. They WASTE the lives of others to the end of more for themselves, they WASTE the world for the same, they prevent any change that might give them less m-o-n-e-y no matter the consequences, they are short-sighted and selfish and see no problem supporting the crooked system by which they gain and blow off consequences to everyone.
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: GoForSmoke on Oct 10, 2019, 01:32 am
I wrote job bid software for 3 different companies. I know what the rates are and what people got paid, and these were for 3 honest companies that did not screw the workers.

I know what it takes to do honest business so when I see, hear or read bullshit I know that too.  Those cartoons are both the usual mislead to make a false impression jokes, the snow pile at the end of the second one can almost make it seem like that's all there is.

Productivity has gone up enormously in the last 40 years, profits have beaten the hell out of inflation. Wages however have lost wrt inflation and public education cuts now have industry leaders saying there aren't enough people with the basic skills they need to fill positions.

Those who have big money also have big responsibility but they think it's all about them, period. Perhaps when they die reality will cease to exist?





 
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: GoForSmoke on Oct 10, 2019, 01:45 am
The fundamental failure of communism was the idea that the means of production just existed of their own accord and those who controlled them gained that control... I don't know how they think it happened. 

What happened when they said that the means of production should belong to the people no matter who created them.  Compare and contrast what happened to the means of production and the average worker under both systems. 

Who advanced the means of production more, USSR or USA?
The fundamental failure of Communism is that it's based on a fairy tale and can never be reached.

But what happened in the USSR was never Communism and never did the main population get control of production.

Abusive capitalism got smacked down once before here. The regulations put in place following the 1929 crash had things pretty stable until St. Reagan got his de-regs through and since then the sheep have gotten sheared again and again.

Businessmen need to be regulated the same way that other thieves need laws to constrain them for much the same reason.
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: Delta_G on Oct 10, 2019, 02:45 am
FUNNY HOW BANKERS DON'T RESPECT WHAT OTHERS HAVE DONE.
Bankers are a completely different issue from what I have been talking about.  I'm talking about those who own the means of production.  Bankers don't produce.  They just suck. 

If it were a different system I could get behind it.  If it were a system where you are allowed to loan out your own money or any portion of it at interest then I could say that they had the money to lend so they get to reap the reward of the interest. 

But that's not how the system works.  Our system uses fractional reserves.  So you get to, if you are part of the cabal, loan out the same money over and over and over until you've turned a little into a lot.  You get to loan out money you don't have and then when that money gets deposited at the bank you're allowed to re-loan out 90% of that. 

If you think that we could all go to the bank and get our money right now then you're a fool.  They haven't got 5 cents on the dollar of what you deposited.  It simply doesn't exist except on their ledgers and in their pockets. 


Yeah, if you want to bash bankers I'm all in with you.  If you want to bash capitalists I'll argue. 
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: Delta_G on Oct 10, 2019, 02:57 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-5xDzTvW6E (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-5xDzTvW6E)

If you don't know what fractional reserve banking is.  Or even if you do.  Seriously.  Watch this one. 

And remember, the Federal Reserve Bank of the US is no more a part of the government than is Federal Express the shipping company.  It is a private bank held by a few people.  People who control your money. 

They're the real enemy.  They want you to look at the "fat cat" business man who created something and reaped a reward.  They want you to blame him so you don't realize what they've done to you. 

Watch that video, and at the end ask yourself if it is the guy who starts a factory and makes a few million who is the real enemy here. 
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: Delta_G on Oct 10, 2019, 04:36 am
Another great one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qHL2NBmZqQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qHL2NBmZqQ) 
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: Delta_G on Oct 10, 2019, 06:10 am
Just came across this talk about societal collapse by Jared Diamond on Youtube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IESYMFtLIis)

...R
I like the part starting at about 12 minutes about the conflict between short term interests of the elites and long term interests of society. 
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: ardly on Oct 10, 2019, 10:13 am

 (http://"https://forum.arduino.cc/index.php?msg=4331327")
Quote from: ardly on Oct 09, 2019, 01:23 pm (http://"https://forum.arduino.cc/index.php?msg=4331318")
ROFL. But they can become President only if they are stable geniuses with great unmatched wisdom.


And have a voting base dumb enough to believe it.  

But then when you can believe that the Book of Genesis is ==literally== true, what's left?
Flat earthers of course.
I forgot to say that a President must be diplomatic, articulate, erudite, an expert in many fields and yet still remain modest.
I like the idea that people get where they are through the sweat of their own brows. They don't. Some people at the top of the pile have had good ideas and do work hard, but even for them 95% of why they are where they are is pure and simple luck.
The "American Dream" is an illusion. The idea that "anybody" can make it to the top is taken as meaning that "everybody" could make it to the top if they just tried hard enough - and that is clearly false. The "anybody" who does make it to the top does so by chance, coincidence, luck.
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: Robin2 on Oct 10, 2019, 10:46 am
I'm not saying it's your neighbors fault.  Just that you are in competition with the neighbor.  As long as you keep just blaming the "fat cats" and thinking you have no power then you are indeed powerless.  You and the neighbor just keep competing and driving down wages as you each offer to do the job for less.  Classic supply and demand. 
This is standard capitalist economic theory. It is part of the brainwashing process.

There is nothing to prevent a not-greedy employer from doubling or trebling the salaries of his staff should he wish to.

Supply and demand is evolutionary stuff - where things can only survive by grabbing every opportunity. That may still be true for foxes and rabbits. But it has been a long time since it was true for humans in wealthy countries.

...R
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: GoForSmoke on Oct 10, 2019, 12:16 pm
Bankers are a completely different issue from what I have been talking about.  I'm talking about those who own the means of production.  Bankers don't produce.  They just suck. 

If it were a different system I could get behind it.  If it were a system where you are allowed to loan out your own money or any portion of it at interest then I could say that they had the money to lend so they get to reap the reward of the interest. 

But that's not how the system works.  Our system uses fractional reserves.  So you get to, if you are part of the cabal, loan out the same money over and over and over until you've turned a little into a lot.  You get to loan out money you don't have and then when that money gets deposited at the bank you're allowed to re-loan out 90% of that. 

If you think that we could all go to the bank and get our money right now then you're a fool.  They haven't got 5 cents on the dollar of what you deposited.  It simply doesn't exist except on their ledgers and in their pockets. 


Yeah, if you want to bash bankers I'm all in with you.  If you want to bash capitalists I'll argue. 
Bankers are Alpha Capitalists.
Corporations are capitalist rules followed by business people. It tilts the economy towards Bankers and Corporations.

The small business owner may not incorporate so as not to be controlled by those rules but over the last few decades the perks of incorporating give a business edge over all others. As of 2010 in the USA, corporations have open season on elections and look what we got now!

Every so often the private corporation Federal Reserve prints a few 100 billion dollars and loans it out to money in circulation. 85% to 90% of that goes quickly to the top .01% (mostly bankers counting stock market houses) where they take the money OUT of circulation prompting more money to be printed. Turn the handle on the crank, every new dollar printed takes away from every dollar owned, the elites get fat while the rest get crushed and the poor get blamed.

The rules have been bent so far that the cheats have all but driven honest businesses and workers out.

Pure capitalism becomes a kind of totalitarianism just by how it works. J.P. Morgan and others showed that over 100 years ago, what we have had since 1981 is a very concerted effort to return to those unfettered libertarian days when the people and the land were resources to use and waste as long as you could afford to. We had a river that caught fire then and if the Corporation-Fascist-Nation gets its way, we will again. Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness will be the domain of the rich exclusively. We're more than halfway there now.
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: GoForSmoke on Oct 10, 2019, 12:30 pm
The idea that "anybody" can make it to the top is taken as meaning that "everybody" could make it to the top if they just tried hard enough -
That idea is how to keep 1000 workers hard at it earning their bosses more than they make. It's not bad as long as the workers can have a decent life and improve on that and their kids have a chance to do the same. We sort of had that but not for everyone in the 60's and 70's before the Vietnam profiteering ended and then the middle class became the target.

There used to be more ladders up but those who climbed them pulled them up behind themselves. Work extra hard for them and they might choose you to ascend if you're loyal enough.

Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: GoForSmoke on Oct 10, 2019, 12:39 pm
If you don't know what fractional reserve banking is.  Or even if you do.  Seriously.  Watch this one. 
The businessman who screws his way to millions of dollars is not a friend and the Fed is not his shield.

Banks not having all the cash deposits on hand is not an evil. Holding people to mortgages after taking their assets is evil.

Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: Delta_G on Oct 10, 2019, 03:29 pm
Flat earthers of course.
I forgot to say that a President must be diplomatic, articulate, erudite, an expert in many fields and yet still remain modest.
I like the idea that people get where they are through the sweat of their own brows. They don't. Some people at the top of the pile have had good ideas and do work hard, but even for them 95% of why they are where they are is pure and simple luck.
The "American Dream" is an illusion. The idea that "anybody" can make it to the top is taken as meaning that "everybody" could make it to the top if they just tried hard enough - and that is clearly false. The "anybody" who does make it to the top does so by chance, coincidence, luck.

It's exceedingly obvious that you haven't ever been your own boss. I'm sorry for that.  You should really try it out some time.  It's not nearly as hard as you make it out to be.

Again, if you're talking about the Jeff Bezos of the world then I'm with you.  But they only represent a tiny tiny tiny fraction of the businesses out there.  90% of businesses are like Ray's Lawn Care.  And Ray don't play.  He gets up every morning, busts his ass, and saves his money.  And in the last three years I've seen him go from fresh over the border immigrant literally walking around the neighborhood with an old push mower that barely ran to owning trucks and trailers and riding equipment for multiple crews. 

If you think what happened to him was all luck then I think you're just jealous.  It wasn't.  Luck was working against him in a big way.  It's easy for you to blame your failures on the *luck* of others.  But it just isn't true.  Even you could have built something.  Don't be so bitter.  You're only trapped by your own fears. 

And that's the story of the vast majority of business owners.  They're not millionaire capitalists.  They're average Joe's making about the same or a little less than the average working man.  But they don't answer to the bosses.  And there's real value in that. 
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: Delta_G on Oct 10, 2019, 03:43 pm
The businessman who screws his way to millions of dollars is not a friend and the Fed is not his shield.

Banks not having all the cash deposits on hand is not an evil. Holding people to mortgages after taking their assets is evil.


Nah, regular money lending isn't evil.  It's necessary.  And if I loan you $20 out of my pocket in real money it's certainly not evil for me to expect you to pay it back.  It would be evil of you not to. 

But that's not what the banks are doing.  They loan out imaginary money that they don't have.  And then expect you to pay it back along with some extra money that never existed.  That is an evil. 

I'm not saying that all banks should have 100% reserves, but they should be holding any part that I request stay in reserve and they should pay me the bulk of the interest earned on any portion that I allow them to loan out.  It definitely isn't right that they take my money at 0.01% and then loan it out on revolving credit at 22%. 

And now in Europe you even have them paying negative rates.  You pay them to take your money and make more money out of it for themselves.  Think about that for a minute. 
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: ardly on Oct 10, 2019, 03:48 pm
It's exceedingly obvious that you haven't ever been your own boss. I'm sorry for that.  You should really try it out some time.  It's not nearly as hard as you make it out to be.

Again, if you're talking about the Jeff Bezos of the world then I'm with you.  But they only represent a tiny tiny tiny fraction of the businesses out there.  90% of businesses are like Ray's Lawn Care.  And Ray don't play.  He gets up every morning, busts his ass, and saves his money.  And in the last three years I've seen him go from fresh over the border immigrant literally walking around the neighborhood with an old push mower that barely ran to owning trucks and trailers and riding equipment for multiple crews.  

If you think what happened to him was all luck then I think you're just jealous.  It wasn't.  Luck was working against him in a big way.  It's easy for you to blame your failures on the *luck* of others.  But it just isn't true.  Even you could have built something.  Don't be so bitter.  You're only trapped by your own fears.  

And that's the story of the vast majority of business owners.  They're not millionaire capitalists.  They're average Joe's making about the same or a little less than the average working man.  But they don't answer to the bosses.  And there's real value in that.  
I am talking about the bosses who are earning over 20-30 times more than their employees not the average Joe because that is exactly what they are average.

Really though everybody's position is down to luck. Ray was lucky to get across the border, lucky not to get deported, lucky to get the old push mower, lucky to get jobs. I am sure there are plenty of Rays who worked just as hard and who are just as smart but did not do as well.
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: ardly on Oct 10, 2019, 03:52 pm
...

I'm not saying that all banks should have 100% reserves, but they should be holding any part that I request stay in reserve and they should pay me the bulk of the interest earned on any portion that I allow them to loan out.  It definitely isn't right that they take my money at 0.01% and then loan it out on revolving credit at 22%.  
...
And now in Europe you even have them paying negative rates.  You pay them to take your money and make more money out of it for themselves.  Think about that for a minute.  
Have reserves in what - money is paper. Most money is not even paper, Credit Card companies magic money from electrons.

Negative interest rates are a hedge against inflation. You buy an investment that depreciates in the expectaion that it will be better than keeping the cash.

Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: Delta_G on Oct 10, 2019, 04:20 pm
Just for disclosure sake, I am actually talking about a very real fellow who cuts my grass, but his name isn't really Ray.  The story I'm telling very much is.  This is a guy I know well now. 


Really though everybody's position is down to luck. Ray was lucky to get across the border, lucky not to get deported, lucky to get the old push mower, lucky to get jobs. I am sure there are plenty of Rays who worked just as hard and who are just as smart but did not do as well.
So you don't think any of that was his own doing?  It just happened to him?  He was sitting in the shade under a tree one day and a guy walked up and said, "Hey man, you wanna be a star?"

Get real.  You don't even know the guy.  I do.  I promise that ain't how it happened for him.  He was one of the few that got in line and waited to immigrate legally.  That ain't easy to do.  Most folks say screw that and just hop the fence.  So he wasn't lucky not to get deported.  He was smart not to get deported. 

Lucky to get the push mower?  He bought that with what little money he had when he got here.  Anyone can buy a push mower for $30.  If you think that an inability to find a push mower is what is holding you back then get off your lazy ass and quit bitching.  Half of Americans have an old push mower for sale.  Get real. 

Lucky to get jobs?  Like you think he was just laying around waiting for them to come in.  And out of the whole field of people wanting to cut yards the jobs just happened to land on him?  When that guy moved in there wasn't a minute that you could go around this neighborhood and not see him pushing that mower around and knocking on doors.  He actually got a little bit annoying. 

No, the reason he made it was that he did a really good job.  There were a few other people who had been doing lawns around here for years, but when Ray came to town things changed.  Mine was one of the first lawns he did.  I live on a corner in front of a busy street so everyone sees my yard.  He offered to do it really cheap, like half the price of the guy who had been doing it, so I let him. 

He spent a few hours on my yard and made it look amazing.  He even asked if I had a trimmer, and I did, and used it to cut back all my hedges.  I didn't even know how crappy they had looked before until he was done.  When I saw the level of care and real work that he put into the job here compare to the half-assed attitude I got from the guys I currently had, I told him right then and there to come work for me any time. 

He was smart.  Not lucky.  He did an extra special fabulous job on my yard and told me he would cut me a discount if I let him put a sign on the power pole on the corner.  Great idea I thought.  Lots of people see my house.  Pretty soon he was doing all the yards in the whole neighborhood.  At least everything he could walk to.  Before long he had a little beat up Ford Ranger and he was off like a light. 

He doesn't blow his money on conspicuous consumption.  He lives well below his means.  He saves nearly every penny and puts it back into the business.  And in the last three or four years he's built quite a thriving lawn care business. 

And not one piece of it just fell into his lap.  Not one thing there was just a lucky break.  It wasn't that he just happened to knock on the right door.  He knocked on every door there was until the right one opened.

No bud, that wasn't luck.  I watched it happen.  It was impressive.  It was brains and hard work.  It definitely wasn't sitting behind a keyboard complaining to a programming forum. 



Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: Robin2 on Oct 10, 2019, 05:51 pm
And in the last three years I've seen him go from fresh over the border immigrant literally walking around the neighborhood with an old push mower that barely ran to owning trucks and trailers and riding equipment for multiple crews. 

If you think what happened to him was all luck then I think you're just jealous.  It wasn't.  Luck was working against him in a big way.
This is an example of a very common fallacy - that just because one person has the acumen to be successful in business everybody has.

People are different. The people who have the insights and the "balls" to start and grow a business are relatively rare. However society, and especially politicians and the media like to tell everyone he is a slacker if he is not a successful entrepreneur. I believe I gave value for money in my job and I was well paid - but there is absolutely zero possibility that I could have created and sustained my own business. My mind is just not like that.


But that's not what the banks are doing.  They loan out imaginary money that they don't have.  And then expect you to pay it back along with some extra money that never existed.  That is an evil.
To my mind this is a classic example of trying to "eat your cake and have it". If you want people to be able to build businesses in the way you seem to favour then you also need banking more-or-less as it is now. You can't just pick the bits of the pie that you like.


I firmly believe we need to curb the desire to borrow and the convenience of doing so because the ability to borrow just enables us to consign our grand children to a barren world or a violent world. Because we can borrow too easily we consume too much.

However I am also very conscious that curbing borrowing will bring what we call "economic growth" to a halt (or maybe reverse it in the short term) but that is exactly what the global environment needs. Thinking we can buy our way out of global warming is just poppycock put out by the rich who want to earn a few more millions so they will be able to afford a chateau far above the floods.

...R
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: Delta_G on Oct 10, 2019, 06:01 pm
There's no fallacy in the story I told there.  Nowhere in there is it even implied that everyone has the brains or ambition to pull that off. 

All I'm saying is that it isn't right to say it was all just luck.  He worked his tail off to get there.  Don't accuse him of just being lucky. 

It is natural that not everyone can do this.  It is by nature a competitive thing.  But I don't think we should hold it against the ones who have the ability.  And I certainly don't think it's ok to be bitter and call it luck. 
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: GoForSmoke on Oct 10, 2019, 08:23 pm
I think I'm just seeing biases defended in the thread now.

Delta_G, the word is Usury and we have laws to get around that, predatory lending is very much alive.

I'm happy for "Ray". He must be able to delegate authority to have crews working for him. I have seen businesses get stuck when the boss could not. A lot of failed businesses failed when trying to grow.

Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: Robin2 on Oct 10, 2019, 08:37 pm
All I'm saying is that it isn't right to say it was all just luck.  He worked his tail off to get there.
I didn't mean to disagree with you on that point - sorry if I was not clear enough.

But there is an implication in the "He worked his tail off" that he is somehow better than others who take a more relaxed approach to life, and I don't agree at all with that.

The global environment is better served by the people who do as little as possible. If there had never been a human entrepreneur we would not now be worrying about global warming. And its not too late to stop them.


...R
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: Delta_G on Oct 10, 2019, 11:10 pm
But there is an implication in the "He worked his tail off" that he is somehow better than others who take a more relaxed approach to life, and I don't agree at all with that.
If you see any implication it comes from your own heart, with all due respect.  I mean nothing of the sort.  I don't mean to place any person as "better than" or "less than".  Only that some will succeed at what they do and will end up having more than others.  It doesn't mean that they're better people.  In reality it doesn't even necessarily mean that they're happier or better off. 

It all depends on how you measure success.  Some people will have huge families of children, their genes will be passed to hundreds in just a couple of generations.  Yet they may be impoverished their whole existence.  Another man may make billions of dollars and yet have no connection to people around him and be cut off and lonely his whole life. 

If your definition of who is better than who is based around money or financial success then I guess you could see it as me saying Ray was somehow more deserving.  I mean nothing of the sort.  He has other traits that I think make him a good guy.  But he was a good person even when he was broke out pushing his mower around. 

Quote
The global environment is better served by the people who do as little as possible. If there had never been a human entrepreneur we would not now be worrying about global warming. And its not too late to stop them.
I'll give you that, but try to convince the average first world person today to go back to subsistence living.  We've sold our souls to the devil for the convenience of leisure time. 
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: GoForSmoke on Oct 11, 2019, 01:15 am
How about the many many many people who work hard and never get anywhere or worse, steadily lose?

We USED TO HAVE a sizeable middle class until 2007-2008.
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: Delta_G on Oct 11, 2019, 03:56 am
We USED TO HAVE a sizeable middle class until 2007-2008.
It was melting away way before that.  I think the seminal moment happened August 15, 1971. 

April 5, 1933 before that was the real real beginning.  But that was just a heist.  Nobody can call that anything but what it was.  Robbery. 
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: Robin2 on Oct 11, 2019, 09:57 am
If your definition of who is better than who is based around money or financial success then I guess you could see it as me saying Ray was somehow more deserving.  I mean nothing of the sort.
I accept completely what you say here. However I suspect that many people associate business success with "better"

Quote
but try to convince the average first world person today to go back to subsistence living.  We've sold our souls to the devil for the convenience of leisure time.  
This is the challenge for the wealthier nations - how to share their existing wealth with the poor in other nations rather than dream up schemes to create new wealth for those poor people (and make the rich even richer in the process). Because more wealth inevitably means consuming more stuff and the planet can't sustain that and still allow us the environmental conditions we are accustomed to.

...R
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: GoForSmoke on Oct 11, 2019, 10:41 am
It was melting away way before that.  I think the seminal moment happened August 15, 1971. 

April 5, 1933 before that was the real real beginning.  But that was just a heist.  Nobody can call that anything but what it was.  Robbery. 
Unlike the end of September 1929 right after all the harvest money in a mainly agricultural country was banked?

Thanks to GWB and the GOP we went from 25% poor to 47% poor in 2 years. And then 47% of the country got labeled as "takers" after roughly half of them got burned. And people who never worked a day in their lives got labeled "makers".

And of course we have wannabes making apologies for the ongoing borrow and pocket spree. Funny how the debt and deficit only matter when a Democrat is in office.
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: Delta_G on Oct 11, 2019, 06:20 pm
This is the challenge for the wealthier nations - how to share their existing wealth with the poor in other nations rather than dream up schemes to create new wealth for those poor people (and make the rich even richer in the process). Because more wealth inevitably means consuming more stuff and the planet can't sustain that and still allow us the environmental conditions we are accustomed to.

Again this comes to what you consider "better".  Often times I suspect that the only reason we are really interested in raising the wealth of some other places in the third world is that we want to be able to sell them things. 

How many places have suffered one tragedy that was bad enough, only to have the US and UNESCO drop in with free rice, milk, and eggs and completely shut the local agricultural economy down leaving no room for recovery.  Now we have them completely dependent and we can start to exploit them. 
Think about some of the last so-called uncontacted tribes in Brazil.  Do you really think that they'll be better off if we come share a little of our wealth with them? 

Or the folks on North Sentinel Island.  They seem to be doing just fine without all of our modern luxuries. 

That's how humans are supposed to exist.  That's our natural place.
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: Robin2 on Oct 11, 2019, 07:12 pm
Again this comes to what you consider "better".  Often times I suspect that the only reason we are really interested in raising the wealth of some other places in the third world is that we want to be able to sell them things.
What I've been trying to suggest is that we need to change that attitude. And. yes, we need to consider carefully what is the best way to share our wealth.


Quote
That's how humans are supposed to exist.  That's our natural place.
But it's unlikely to win too many Democrat or Republican votes.

...R
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: raymw on Oct 11, 2019, 08:07 pm
Quote
Or the folks on North Sentinel Island.  They seem to be doing just fine without all of our modern luxuries. 

That's how humans are supposed to exist.  That's our natural place.
How do you know they are doing just fine? You care to visit to find out? As soon as it is thought that something there may be useful, they will exist no more. It is far from our natural place. The human race has evolved over centuries, they haven't. They are the odd ones. It works for their small population, where hunting gathering will suffice, but they use other folks' materials.

Reminds me of the hippies, living in tents, saying we don't need this modern world, as they fetched water in their plastic buckets. And many of those buffoons became school teachers... and you know the rest.
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: Delta_G on Oct 11, 2019, 09:52 pm
How do you know they are doing just fine?
Well they've certainly lasted.  And when we finally snuff out the last of what we've got and go the way of the Dodo, they'll be the only ones with the skills left to survive in the world after. 


Quote
The human race has evolved over centuries
Lol.  The human race has evolved over millennia.  The modern way of life is barely a blip in that time-scale. 
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: raymw on Oct 12, 2019, 01:22 am
If they are so wonderful, and have the right survival skills, why not do as I suggested, and go and visit them? Perhaps you could learn a thing or two. I'm not sure what it could be that would snuff out the last of what we got, and that they would be spared. I'm not sure either as to who 'we' refers to,  the rest of humanity, or a selected few who do the snuffing out.
Show the code, and a schematic diagram. >:(

Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: Delta_G on Oct 12, 2019, 01:41 am
why not do as I suggested, and go and visit them?
The North Sentinelese? 

Have a look at what's happened to the last few fools who thought they were going to bring "civilization" to them. 
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: GoForSmoke on Oct 12, 2019, 04:18 am
That's how humans are supposed to exist.  That's our natural place.
Go ahead. Miss ya already!
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: Qdeathstar on Oct 12, 2019, 04:19 am
We have certainly went down a rabbit hole here folks.
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: GoForSmoke on Oct 12, 2019, 04:34 am
Lol.  The human race has evolved over millennia.  The modern way of life is barely a blip in that time-scale.  
A large jar of nutrient solution starts with 1 cell that divides once every minute. After 23 hours and 59 minutes the jar is half full. How long before the jar fills?

People the world over are getting taken down by the warming. The ones living on the edge have a geological split-second left while the ones most protected sing cry me a river you should have been like me.
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: Qdeathstar on Oct 12, 2019, 04:47 am
How long before the jar fills?

With bleach?
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: Delta_G on Oct 12, 2019, 04:57 am
People the world over are getting taken down by the warming.
I harken back to the great Carlin.  The people are truly screwed, but the planet will be alright.  She's been through worse than us before.  Things will change for sure. 

Think about it, the warming ain't bad for everyone.  Imagine you're in Florida living in some slum a quarter mile inland and 3 meters above the sea.  All those rich bastids between you and the sea about to get drowned and you are about to have the house on the beach. 

There's your transfer of wealth. 


Realistically, think about all the great farmland held by the big corporate farms that will soon be worthless after the change.  Then think of all that worthless land held by poor farmers that's just a little too cold.  Or the stuff that ain't even held by farmers because it's way too cold.  That's where we're about to start growing food.  They're about to hit a windfall from this warming stuff. 

Change is scary, but it won't be bad for everyone. 

Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: GoForSmoke on Oct 12, 2019, 06:23 am
Look what just happened to The Bahamas. While Puerto Rico got the break this time.
We get more tornadoes much inland. Getting landslides here, too much rain and drought elsewhere.

More and more new insect, animal, and fungus/mold species are invading everywhere, the tundras are breathing out methane and so are gigantic methane-hydride beds on continental shelves... the water has bubbles coming out and nobody is collecting it. Not cost efficient to fracking? Methane is 20x more greenhouse than CO2.

Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: Robin2 on Oct 12, 2019, 10:21 am
Think about it, the warming ain't bad for everyone.  Imagine you're in Florida living in some slum a quarter mile inland and 3 meters above the sea.  All those rich bastids between you and the sea about to get drowned and you are about to have the house on the beach. 
Nope. The rich bastids will have plenty of ammo for their AK47 so they will just kill you and yours and take your house on the hill. (And I'm not just talking about criminal rich bastids).

To my mind this is the real challenge of global warming - to avoid that sort of strife. Read Jared Diamond's "Collapse" for plenty of real evidence.

...R
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: raymw on Oct 12, 2019, 12:21 pm
What makes you think they need ammo? Way before this happens, and it well may not,, the 'rich bastards' will have foreclosed on the hill dwellers' mortgages.
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: Robin2 on Oct 12, 2019, 12:38 pm
What makes you think they need ammo? Way before this happens, and it well may not,, the 'rich bastards' will have foreclosed on the hill dwellers' mortgages.
Probably an even more malevolent scenario - and not unlikely.

No doubt the hill dwellers will be told "It's for your own good"

...R
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: ardly on Oct 14, 2019, 02:27 pm
We have certainly went down a rabbit hole here folks.
It is a veritable Black Hole. @GoForSmoke must be wondering what he started with his innocent "The look on Zelensky's face at the UN when his new friend tells him they will be getting along with Putin soon".

With friends like Trump who needs enemies. Turkey, a member of Nato, had already decided that they would be better off buying weapons from Russia before "The Donald" started threatening to destroy their economy. Now that "The Donald" has abandoned the Kurds they too are seeing the benefits of turning to Russia! Meanwhile some 60,000 ISIS fighters are starting to leak from Kurdish prisons.

It is obviously all part of a master plan by a stable genius that we mere mortals are unable to comprehend.



Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: GoForSmoke on Oct 15, 2019, 03:35 am
America First is Putin's strategy for world domination and Trump is his punk.
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: Qdeathstar on Oct 15, 2019, 04:03 am
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SHhrZgojY1Q
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: ardly on Oct 25, 2019, 04:03 pm
... I don't like/agree with welfare for all ....
Jesus did;
Matthew 25:31-46
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: Qdeathstar on Oct 25, 2019, 08:14 pm
Didn't he end up dying on a cross?
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: GoForSmoke on Oct 26, 2019, 04:07 am
I'd love to know how you end.
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: Qdeathstar on Oct 26, 2019, 05:02 am
stiff against the freezing fog glaring at a tickless watch, i imagine.
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: Qdeathstar on Oct 26, 2019, 05:07 am
Perhaps in a pool of self pity pondering the path i took that put me in position to play out life without a purpose? #NAH
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: Qdeathstar on Oct 26, 2019, 05:21 am
Sitting on a sideline searching for a selfish savior to save the sentient from their natural discourse- A squaller of sin with a side of righteousness?  #NAH
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: Qdeathstar on Oct 26, 2019, 05:21 am
Jesus has nothing to do with it.
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: GoForSmoke on Oct 26, 2019, 05:52 am
Not really, I was just poking an asshat.
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: Qdeathstar on Oct 26, 2019, 02:04 pm
well, generally when you poke then pop an asshat you get a face full of sh... well, you know.  #jussayindoggg
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: GoForSmoke on Oct 27, 2019, 03:10 am
I'll leave that for other members to decide who stinks this time.  You wanna diss Mohammed next? Budda?
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: Qdeathstar on Oct 27, 2019, 07:54 pm
Awe shucks...
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: ardly on Oct 27, 2019, 08:09 pm
This is my fault. I broke the Golden Rule of never talking about Politics or Religion in a Bar.

Sorry. :(
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: Qdeathstar on Oct 27, 2019, 09:17 pm
It's ok Ardly. I still love you.
Title: Re: Priceless in a really sad way.
Post by: Qdeathstar on Jan 03, 2020, 04:48 am
Trump just killed Soleimani... assuming this doesn't cause an all out war with Iran, first good move he has made in a while.


That assumption though....