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Community => Bar Sport => Topic started by: PerryBebbington on Jun 02, 2020, 08:39 am

Title: Mopeds
Post by: PerryBebbington on Jun 02, 2020, 08:39 am
50 or more years ago there was a thing called a 'moped'. A moped was a bicycle fitted with a small engine, up to 50cc, that assisted the rider in peddling but was not generally powerful enough to propel the moped by itself. Well, it wasn't in the original incarnation but then the Japanese came along and the moped became a small motorcycle, perfectly capable of reasonable speeds with no need to pedal at all. In the UK (I don't know about other countries) it was a legal requirement that a moped be fitted with pedals by means of which it could be propelled. There was nothing in the specification that said the pedals must be easy to use or convenient. UK mopeds had pedals, they were very awkward to use and you'd rather push the thing than pedal it. No matter, they complied with the law.

Now we have a new kind of moped. It's a bicycle and it's fitted with a propulsion device to assist the rider in pedalling, but is not capable of being entirely self propelled. How long before electric bikes become electric motorbikes?
Title: Re: Mopeds
Post by: Robin2 on Jun 02, 2020, 10:52 am
but is not capable of being entirely self propelled.
The electric bikes that I see in use can be entirely power propelled while the battery lasts.

...R
Title: Re: Mopeds
Post by: ballscrewbob on Jun 03, 2020, 03:29 pm
I thought the law was changed Perry.

Know they first made the pedals easily removable in exchange for footpegs and the mopeds I had were without pedals at all.

They could also be tuned for some crazy speeds out of a 50cc engine
My brother had a race tuned Garelli capable of 90+ mph

Only real restriction was not allowed on motorways at that time which was maybe just as well !


Title: Re: Mopeds
Post by: CrossRoads on Jun 03, 2020, 04:27 pm
Electric motorbikes are already out.
Segway dirtbike example
(https://static.segway.com/pub/media/catalog/product/cache/92222f9d2af9be9f0c7a6d1d79f6b6e0/d/b/db2-160-3.jpg)


Can't tell who the manufacturer is on this one
(http://safervideos.com/pictures/bdt/581Z_main2.jpg)
http://www.saferwholesale.com/New-2000-Watt-Electric-Motorcycle-Moped-Sc-p/bdt-581z.htm?vfsku=BDT.581Z&Click=35179 (http://www.saferwholesale.com/New-2000-Watt-Electric-Motorcycle-Moped-Sc-p/bdt-581z.htm?vfsku=BDT.581Z&Click=35179)
Title: Re: Mopeds
Post by: PerryBebbington on Jun 03, 2020, 05:11 pm
Quote
I thought the law was changed Perry.
It was, I don't know when. When I was 16, which was 1977, the law was that a moped had to have an engine under 50cc and pedals by means of which it could be propelled. Fitting foot pegs was not an option. However, the pedals could be swung round so they were both in the same horizontal position and served as foot pegs. The loophole in the law was that you could propel the bike with the pedals, not that the pedals must be at all times in a position where they could be used. Of course, they were never used except at the MOT test to prove they worked.

It was also legal at 16 to drive a tractor on the road. I now regret not doing that. Red diesel (probably free from my dad) and cheap insurance. Oh well.
Title: Re: Mopeds
Post by: ballscrewbob on Jun 03, 2020, 05:27 pm
Oh and you could keep getting the "provisional" license ad infinitum at that point too.

We often did two up to the east coast on ours to sleep out near Scarborough lighthouse.
Bin bags and a sleeping bag were all you needed and the chips or a cheap brekky in the morning to quell the night befores beer.



Title: Re: Mopeds
Post by: Budvar10 on Jun 03, 2020, 07:01 pm
Babetta (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babetta)
Title: Re: Mopeds
Post by: GoForSmoke on Jun 04, 2020, 01:09 pm
I saw Benelli's, Vespa's and mini-bikes with 49cc motors in the 60's.

You put a motor that turns a freewheeling roller so the roller is on the bicycle rear tire and lets it roll forward, pushes it forward when the motor runs. No chains or gears required.

In 77-78 I saw Honda mopeds that were governed to go no faster than 35MPH even down steep hills and no slower than about 1MPH going back up. Learn to ride with toe clips boys... and Alpine gearing.
Title: Re: Mopeds
Post by: Robin2 on Jun 04, 2020, 01:50 pm
You put a motor that turns a freewheeling roller so the roller is on the bicycle rear tire and lets it roll forward, pushes it forward when the motor runs. No chains or gears required.
My Dad had a bike with an engine that operated like that on the front wheel. I think it was called an NSU Quickly. By the time I was old enough to be conscious of it he had stopped using the engine and I know he eventually removed it and just used it as a pedal-bike. I suspect he had bought it when we were living further out of town and he used it to get to work - long before we had a car. At the time I remember the bike we were living within walking distance of his work.

...R
Title: Re: Mopeds
Post by: ballscrewbob on Jun 04, 2020, 01:59 pm
NSU now there is a blast from the past !

My old man got hold of an NSU car when we were kids.
And got rid of it almost as quickly f****** death traps !

It was the one almost like a Hillman imp.
Title: Re: Mopeds
Post by: TheMemberFormerlyKnownAsAWOL on Jun 04, 2020, 04:11 pm
Quote
My Dad had a bike with an engine that operated like that on the front wheel
.A Solex?
Title: Re: Mopeds
Post by: Robin2 on Jun 04, 2020, 05:40 pm
.A Solex?
May have been - actually probably more likely. I had forgotten that name.

...R
Title: Re: Mopeds
Post by: Whandall on Jun 04, 2020, 07:01 pm
I had a 50cc Z√ľndap KS50 in 1972, which was (styled like) a real motor bike. 90 km/h max.

Like this, but in black with a red seat.

(https://forum.arduino.cc/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=687863.0;attach=366906)
Title: Re: Mopeds
Post by: runaway_pancake on Jun 06, 2020, 09:05 pm
PUCH had some nice models, built well I thought. I had a "Maxi". Pedaling was a joke, of course, but that was needed for getting the motor started. 
Topped out at 30 mph. 
I had to buy a license plate for it every year. At some point they discontinued that.
Fueling was a hassle because two-stroke oil had to be put in the tank. I'd bring the right amount in a coke bottle, hardly convenient. And no fuel gauge, had to keep a close eye on the odometer for that.
Title: Re: Mopeds
Post by: ballscrewbob on Jun 06, 2020, 10:33 pm
My bro had a PUKE at one point.  :smiley-grin:
Didn't keep that too long before he upgraded to something else.

My path was C50...SS50,,,SS90.
The SS90 was a limited model but was great when you stuck SS50 badges on it and blew by the SS50's
But I also did that to a PORCH with an Iveco 480 without a trailer hooked LOL

Title: Re: Mopeds
Post by: TomGeorge on Jun 07, 2020, 08:14 pm
Hi,
Here in Australia we have a problem with the states each having their own legislation on E-Bikes.
This link is from a company that sells addon kits as well a E-Bikes.

https://dillengerelectricbikes.com.au/blogs/news/electric-bikes-and-the-law (https://dillengerelectricbikes.com.au/blogs/news/electric-bikes-and-the-law)

200W without pedal assist.
250W with pedal assist.
Also motor must be speed limited to 25kph

Each state has a different regulation on where you can ride them.

Tom... :)
Title: Re: Mopeds
Post by: GoForSmoke on Jun 08, 2020, 06:10 am
I looked at Australian ultralight rules and wonder if ultralight rotorcraft fit in there since they can take winds better or so I read.
By those rules I saw mass limits 300kg to 480kg but no speed limits and once you're up there's no stop signs. 

Title: Re: Mopeds
Post by: xiander on Jul 06, 2020, 10:01 am
I often see electric bikes on the streets of new York. This is not the future, this is reality.
Title: Re: Mopeds
Post by: GoForSmoke on Jul 06, 2020, 01:34 pm
I've seen here e-bikes that look and move like motorcycles only thinner.

Hack-a-day has an article on converting car alternators to 3A motors.
Title: Re: Mopeds
Post by: Robin2 on Jul 06, 2020, 03:27 pm
Hack-a-day has an article on converting car alternators to 3A motors.
Should that be 30A?

...R
Title: Re: Mopeds
Post by: GoForSmoke on Jul 06, 2020, 07:15 pm
https://hackaday.com/2020/01/16/car-alternators-make-great-electric-motors-heres-how/

Quote
Given a controller, there is one more requirement for our alternator to become a motor, it must have a DC supply to its rotor winding. It needs to have about 2 or 3A flowing through it, for which a current-limited PSU module performs the task admirably. Having to use that power makes the motor a bit less efficient than a permanent magnet one, but the cost of a scrap alternator is hard to beat.
That's Amps converted to 3-phase AC through an ESC.

https://hackaday.com/2016/08/14/alternator-becomes-motor-for-this-electric-go-kart/

While the frame for [Adrian Georgescu] and [Masoud Johnson]'s build was a second-hand find, the powertrain is all custom. They targeted a power output of 3 kW but found no affordable motors in that range. So, in true hacker fashion, they rolled their own motor from a used Subaru alternator. The three-phase motor controller came from an electric scooter, three LiPo packs provide the juice, and a pair of Arduinos takes care of throttle control, speed sensing, and sending data to the virtual dashboard on an Android phone. Some lights and a snappy red and black paint job finished off the build. While the video below shows that the acceleration isn't exactly neck-snapping in the Tesla style, the e-kart can build up to a good speed - 53 km/h. Not too shabby, and no deafening engine right behind your head.

GFS


Title: Re: Mopeds
Post by: Robin2 on Jul 06, 2020, 07:34 pm
That's Amps converted to 3-phase AC through an ESC.
That 3 amps is just to energise the electrormagnet that is the rotor

You also need lots of amps at 36v or 48v for the stator. For 3kW input at 48v that would be 62.5 amps. If the 3kW is the output then you would need a lot more amps to offset the efficiency.

When working on the car the alternator may have been designed to produce 60 or 70 amps at 12v DC.

...R
Title: Re: Mopeds
Post by: GoForSmoke on Jul 07, 2020, 02:19 am
I should have quoted more from the link yinz didn't read:

Quote
We've found that an alternator drives well as a motor from a 36V or a 48V supply, and as long as a controller with enough power is used then they do so reliably. A quick AliExpress search for "brushless motor controller 1500W" turns up plenty of choice.

Given a controller, there is one more requirement for our alternator to become a motor, it must have a DC supply to its rotor winding. It needs to have about 2 or 3A flowing through it, for which a current-limited PSU module performs the task admirably. Having to use that power makes the motor a bit less efficient than a permanent magnet one, but the cost of a scrap alternator is hard to beat.
I don't think they're trying for more than 3HP. 
Weaker DC motors cost a lot more.

Yes the 2-3 Amps is for the rotor and covers the field needed for low-RPM torque to start with.