Arduino Forum

Products => Arduino Due => Topic started by: LMI1 on Dec 18, 2012, 07:59 pm

Title: When is Due is due?
Post by: LMI1 on Dec 18, 2012, 07:59 pm
Hi

I want to buy a Due board. Is there any info about when the next lot will be available. Is the hardware going to be the same as before? I ask because I want to know if I find the board elsewhere will it as good as the new ones.

I just had to this subject line.
Title: Re: When is Due is due?
Post by: swseansw on Dec 19, 2012, 02:45 am
I bought two from Arduino with the help of my friend.
However, the board is different from the eagle file in official website. The eagle file is 4-layer pcb. The actual board is 2-layer.
I found many producers begins to copy the board. But it is easy to distinguish the real and the copy.
The attached pictures could show the difference.
The one on the box is the same with the eagle file
The real board are the one we receive.
Title: Re: When is Due is due?
Post by: graynomad on Dec 19, 2012, 04:33 am
Quote
The eagle file is 4-layer pcb. The actual board is 2-layer.

What! I know there's been some argy bargy about the posted files not being the actual files, but to go from 4 layers to 2 layers doesn't seem practical. That would be a total re-lay of the board to arrive at an inferior product.

_____
Rob
Title: Re: When is Due is due?
Post by: swseansw on Dec 19, 2012, 07:02 am

Quote
The eagle file is 4-layer pcb. The actual board is 2-layer.

What! I know there's been some argy bargy about the posted files not being the actual files, but to go from 4 layers to 2 layers doesn't seem practical. That would be a total re-lay of the board to arrive at an inferior product.

_____
Rob

Unfortunately it is true.
Look at the following picture. In the eagle file, there is a chip between the headers. However, actually there is no chip on the board i received. And the chip is gone in the pictures on Arduino DUE product page. The eagle file is 4-layer. But i can't see any symbol on my board indicating this board is 4-layer. All the vias seem go through.
Title: Re: When is Due is due?
Post by: graynomad on Dec 19, 2012, 09:00 am
Quote
All the vias seem go through.

I could still be 4 layer, many fab houses don't allow blind or buried vias or charge more for them so many (most?) people just use through vias.

We have discussed the movement of that chip and other inconsistencies between the released CAD files and the real thing before. It has never been resolved AFAIK.

_____
Rob
Title: Re: When is Due is due?
Post by: swseansw on Dec 19, 2012, 04:08 pm

Quote
All the vias seem go through.

I could still be 4 layer, many fab houses don't allow blind or buried vias or charge more for them so many (most?) people just use through vias.

We have discussed the movement of that chip and other inconsistencies between the released CAD files and the real thing before. It has never been resolved AFAIK.

_____
Rob

Well, I am not sure if it is 4-layer or not. But i see no reason for this board to be 4-layer. I mean, 2-layer could also work.
Even though Arduino published different eagle file in purpose, i could understand. There are so many copies of Arduino board which infringe Arduino trademark. It is too easy for those factories to make the copies. If Arduino publishes different CAD files, the copy boards become different. For arduino, that is a good way to protect themselves.
Title: Re: When is Due is due?
Post by: retrolefty on Dec 19, 2012, 04:14 pm
Quote
Even though Arduino published different eagle file in purpose, i could understand. There are so many copies of Arduino board which infringe Arduino trademark. It is too easy for those factories to make the copies. If Arduino publishes different CAD files, the copy boards become different. For arduino, that is a good way to protect themselves.


Which would be fine with me if they did. However they should then clearly state that the Due product is not a true hardware open source product, unlike their prior products? I suspect that is not their intention, but rather just a matter of the published documentation not yet keeping up timely with actual production documentation used.

Lefty
Title: Re: When is Due is due?
Post by: graynomad on Dec 19, 2012, 04:16 pm
Quote
I mean, 2-layer could also work.

Yes but 4-layer is MUCH easier to design and the end result is better because of the extra ground and power planes. It does cost more though.

Quote
For arduino, that is a good way to protect themselves.

I would understand as well if that's the case, in fact I floated the same idea some time ago. I don't think anyone here would blame them for trying to have an edge, after all they did all the work. However it's not open source if that's the case.

______
Rob
Title: Re: When is Due is due?
Post by: jstamour802 on Dec 20, 2012, 02:20 pm
Eagle probably only shows 2 layers on the imported file because you're importing it into Freeware EAGLE, which only allows 2 layers.

They may have released it in this way so that the majority of folks could import it into eagle.

My guess is that it is actually a 4-layer board since the imported files do show many shorting traces on the top layer (which are most likely inner-signal layers imported as top layer).
Title: Re: When is Due is due?
Post by: codlink on Dec 20, 2012, 03:29 pm
I have the [sarcasm]paid version of eagle[/sarcasm] and I can see all 4 layers, Top, Route 2, Route 15, Bottom.  The 2 inner layers are GND and power plain respectively.
Title: Re: When is Due is due?
Post by: swseansw on Dec 26, 2012, 08:43 am

I have the [sarcasm]paid version of eagle[/sarcasm] and I can see all 4 layers, Top, Route 2, Route 15, Bottom.  The 2 inner layers are GND and power plain respectively.

Hi,codlink
I have a question.
Recently i made an arduino viriation board. I want to offer the source file to users.
I designed it with Altium Designer DXP. Now I am working on Eagle version.
I just want to know, is it good to offer the DXP source file? Or is it better to offer the eagle files after i finish it?
I am not sure if the DXP file could help users since i see eagle seems to be more popular.
Title: Re: When is Due is due?
Post by: graynomad on Dec 26, 2012, 12:12 pm
I use Altium but I doubt many prospective users of you board would, so I'd say you should publish Eagle files if you can. Whether or not Eagle can import Altium files I don't know, but if you are happy to re-lay in Eagle that doesn't matter.

______
Rob
Title: Re: When is Due is due?
Post by: codlink on Dec 26, 2012, 02:50 pm
I think most of us use Eagle, so I would distribute the Eagle files as well.  You could try to find a script that will allow you import into Eagle, but I don't know if one even exists.
Title: Re: When is Due is due?
Post by: mbanzi on Dec 29, 2012, 11:11 am
Arduino distributes the production files of all of its boards.
Everything we do is always open source.
We release the day the board goes on sale the most up to date file available to us.
Full stop end of story.

Sometimes the factory has to make variations to the board to accommodate issues that happen during the production process (suddenly a part is no longer available, they need to move a part to make it easier to mount or they need to optimise the layout for a new testing rig. these are normal events in a production envirorment especially when production ramps up)

In this case it takes us a few days (or weeks when the factory forgets to tell us they made changes) to update the files distributed online.

Even if a file is slightly older than the one in production , it's still open source hardware.

m
Title: Re: When is Due is due?
Post by: pico on Dec 29, 2012, 12:13 pm

In this case it takes us a few days (or weeks when the factory forgets to tell us they made changes) to update the files distributed online.


So when do you expect the factory will provide you with the 2-layer design files so you can release them to all of us?

And did the factory really forget to tell you they had changed from the 4-layer board design you provided them to a 2-layer design for actual production? This would strike me as quite a remarkable thing.

The first inkling something had changed must have been the invoice in that case -- it must have been a pleasant surprise to see the price adjustment to reflect the significantly cheaper manufacturing process.  :)

And then of course there is the mystery of those RTC crystals just disappearing entirely from some production boards, but not others. I guess the factory must have much more discretion about such things than I would have guessed. 

In the meantime we have the curious situation where a board is advertised as "open hardware source", and yet at this point in time no-one (including the original board designers) can get hold of the actual design files used for the actual production version(s). An interesting (but hopefully not long-lived) state of affairs.


   
Title: Re: When is Due is due?
Post by: mbanzi on Dec 29, 2012, 12:39 pm
The factory has a lot of freedom as they license the brand but are responsible for all the rest (making, selling, distributing etc)

Why do you say the current board is a 2layer board?

At the beginning of the production process there was a delivery problem related to the oscillators and it was decided that we wanted to ship anyway as that functionality was not supported by Arduino. Sometimes tradeoffs have to be made in order to deliver. Other delivery issues have impacted on the ability to ramp-up production.

Different batches are shipped to different distributors and they appear on the market with not so predictable patterns.

Effectively this is all done on purpose to give something interesting to do to the people who like to play sherlock holmes on the forum (joking...) :)

The board is open source, the files are released as a "reference design" and they have very very minimal differences with some batches of products. When the production stabilises we then put online the final design files.

Stating that this board is not really open source because there might be very minimal differences with one specific batch of products is really disrespectful of the amount of work that arduino has done over the years to develop the open source hardware market. We never had profit as out first driver and we have given away a lot..
Others are bailing out of being open in order to make more money while we're still here doing things like the very first day.







Title: Re: When is Due is due?
Post by: pico on Dec 29, 2012, 01:15 pm

Why do you say the current board is a 2layer board?


That was the claim made in post #2 of this thread, and has not so far been refuted. If it is actually incorrect, and all the production boards are in fact 4-layer as in the published design files, perhaps this would be a good opportunity to get that cleared up right away.

When we finally get a set of definitive and up-to-date design docs, and ideally also a list of errata where there are known production variations from the reference design, we will all be on solid ground, and in a situation that such misinformation would not be able to proliferate.

As it is, it is a bit disturbing that no-one can confidently say how many layers the board they have in their hands is!
Title: Re: When is Due is due?
Post by: haiunparaiso on Jan 19, 2013, 09:21 pm

When we finally get a set of definitive and up-to-date design docs, and ideally also a list of errata where there are known production variations from the reference design, we will all be on solid ground, and in a situation that such misinformation would not be able to proliferate.


I can perceive in your messages an unpleasant and even an exigent/demanding tone. I don't know who you are or what you have in your mind, but I can totally see:

1) A complete lack of social skills and good manners (Where's the "please" or the "thanks"?)
2) An arrogant attitude
3) You're accusing the guys that have popularized Open Hardware of not being totally "open". (Are you out of your mind?)

Your questions have been answered like a couple of times in this same topic (If you can't find them, read this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reading_comprehension) ). Please, enough with the 2-layer thing, upgrade to a paid version of Eagle...

And again, Massimo has told you repeatedly that those possible differences between batches are not important at all, especially when it comes to crucial features.