Arduino Forum

Community => Bar Sport => Topic started by: AWOL on Jan 07, 2015, 04:00 pm

Title: "Makes an Arduino look like a 555"
Post by: AWOL on Jan 07, 2015, 04:00 pm
http://hackaday.com/2015/01/01/reverse-engineering-a-superior-chinese-product/ (http://hackaday.com/2015/01/01/reverse-engineering-a-superior-chinese-product/)
http://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=4297 (http://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=4297)
Title: Re: "Makes an Arduino look like a 555"
Post by: Pedro147 on Jan 07, 2015, 10:49 pm
Interesting talk on the Chinese tech development sector/philosophy and reverse engineering their products Thanks
Title: Re: "Makes an Arduino look like a 555"
Post by: nickgammon on Jan 08, 2015, 03:58 am
Quote
It makes an Arduino look like a 555.  A 364 Mhz, 32 bit processor. 8 MB RAM. GSM. Bluetooth. LCD controller. PWM. USB and dozens more.
One of the interesting things about that is the underlying assumption that these specs are "better". Like the thread about the Rubix A10 (http://forum.arduino.cc/index.php?topic=277459.0).

One wonders what the power consumption of this device would be? The complexity of programming it? The reliability, with all these extra features on board? Just as an example, when I got my Raspberry Pi I had considerable trouble even powering it up, its power usage was so great (and supposed to be supplied through a USB port). And then when I did, it crashed quite often.

The old-fashioned Atmega328 might not be "powerful" as some other products but you can run it in applications (eg. a remote control) where it only uses 100 nA of power until woken. It boots in 100 mS or so. There is no operating system to fail. And for something like a fish-feeder extra (processor) power is, frankly, wasted.
Title: Re: "Makes an Arduino look like a 555"
Post by: weedpharma on Jan 08, 2015, 04:34 am
........where it only uses 100 nA of power..........
Yes I am a pedant....but "power"? 

Dropped from Esteemed Mighty Guru to Esteemed Mighty Guru -1.   ;)

Weedpharma ;)
Title: Re: "Makes an Arduino look like a 555"
Post by: nickgammon on Jan 08, 2015, 05:41 am
OK, I got carried away by "power consumption". Make that "current". :P
Title: Re: "Makes an Arduino look like a 555"
Post by: cyberteque on Jan 08, 2015, 06:14 am
the Raspberry Pi is NOT meant to be powered by a USB port!

It may have a mini?/micro(?) USB power jack but every bit of nooby documentation says to not try using a computers USB port for power.

Fortunately for me, my girlfriend is an iFashion victim and breaks iThings regularly so there are heaps of 500 and 750 mAh wallwort USB charger things here. (Telstra have dibs on her soul)

The new Raspberry Pi has a "decent" power supply onboard instead of the linear regulators of the early models.
Title: Re: "Makes an Arduino look like a 555"
Post by: nickgammon on Jan 08, 2015, 06:43 am
I meant that it was powered through a USB jack. The current consumption was so high that I had to reduce the cable length to reduce the voltage drop over the USB cable.
Title: Re: "Makes an Arduino look like a 555"
Post by: cyberteque on Jan 09, 2015, 08:10 am
must have been a dodgy cable, I've got one running on 2 long USB extensions
Title: Re: "Makes an Arduino look like a 555"
Post by: westfw on Jan 09, 2015, 11:22 am
Meh.  I,  and my target audience, can't build anything from a BGA-packaged processor chip, regardless of how much functionality per dollar it provides.  Bunnie has designed some interesting open-source stuff, none of which is buildable without access to manufacturing infrastructure (and probably target quantities) that are beyond most US hobbyists.

(However, it's interesting to compare his efforts with this chip to the current ESP8266 efforts.)

Title: Re: "Makes an Arduino look like a 555"
Post by: bobcousins on Jan 09, 2015, 04:30 pm
I agree it seems rather a waste of time reverse engineering that particular chip, it is little interest to hobbyist/DIY market. By the time the specs have been defined to a usable state, the chip will likely be obsoleted by new iterations.

As for Bunnie's general idea of "open sourcing" Chinese designs with opaque IP, I think is swimming against the tide. I think I would rather pay $10 for a chip that is documented and supported rather than $3 on a chip with none.

It is interesting to note the reversal here, now the Chinese are IP leaders and we are left picking the crumbs, and reverse engineering their designs. A sign of the future I think.
Title: Re: "Makes an Arduino look like a 555"
Post by: JoeN on Jan 14, 2015, 05:45 am
It is interesting to note the reversal here, now the Chinese are IP leaders and we are left picking the crumbs, and reverse engineering their designs. A sign of the future I think.
It's an ARM processor with a bunch of integrated peripherals that are offered by many manufacturers.  I don't see anything unique here except the price point.   What is the unique IP that the Chinese have invented on this package?
Title: Re: "Makes an Arduino look like a 555"
Post by: bobcousins on Jan 14, 2015, 07:23 pm
It's an ARM processor with a bunch of integrated peripherals that are offered by many manufacturers.  I don't see anything unique here except the price point.   What is the unique IP that the Chinese have invented on this package?
I think you answered your question, but I doubt Bunnie would spend several months effort on something he thought was out of date or cheaply available elsewhere.
Title: Re: "Makes an Arduino look like a 555"
Post by: westfw on Jan 14, 2015, 07:33 pm
I'll just use one of those ARM chips with 8MB internal memory available from US manufacturers instead; it would make quite a neat arduino-like board.  I don't need the phone functions; just a couple uarts, spi, twi...   I'll even buy 10 at a time, and spend $10 each.
Got any suggestions?

(More seriously: don't discount manufacturing "IP" and expertise.  Being able to build a package with 5 (?) internally connected dies at this sort of price point is a pretty significant feat!)
Title: Re: "Makes an Arduino look like a 555"
Post by: bobcousins on Jan 14, 2015, 07:51 pm
Good point :)

Although the Raspberry Pi uses the Broadcom SOC, getting hold of it in small Q's, or getting detailed specs for it is impossible unless you are a mega customer, and it is not even one of their latest chipsets.

Renesas have a A9 chip coming out with 10MB on board hopefully this year, RZ/A1H, no idea on pricing.
Title: Re: "Makes an Arduino look like a 555"
Post by: GoForSmoke on Jan 27, 2015, 08:16 pm
Sometimes you need a 40 ft motorhome and sometimes far less will more than do.

China is now getting into the age-old crap that gave rise to Open Source. Oh yeah, way ahead!  :smiley-roll: