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Topic: Wifi without WiFi shield only with NRF24L01+possible ? (Read 39836 times) previous topic - next topic

Trixi

Sep 10, 2013, 05:57 pm Last Edit: Sep 10, 2013, 07:40 pm by Trixi Reason: 1
Hoi,

i want to connect my board to my WLAN-Router.

By reading all the threads and entries always a WiFi-Shield is used....is this real necessary or can i connect without that shield, only with a NRF24L01+ - Module ?

Doei
Trixi
Dum spiro, spero - if you find my posting helpful, please click my Karma :)

pico

Yes indeed. 8) WiFi access over nRF24L01+ for Arduinos has been implemented using the RFXduino (Radio For X:duino) gateway system (details at  embeddedcoolness.com).

The motivation behind this project was to make WiFi cheaper for each node (via an inexpensive nRF24L01+ radio module for each), but also simpler to program (example sketches in embeddedcoolness.com/docs -- just added some demo sketches for sending emails, SMS alerts,  tweets) and more powerful (e.g., allows access to secure socket connections, https:// and TLS for email servers, etc.) than using standard WiFI shields.

Check it out and get back to me if you have any questions.  :smiley-mr-green:








WiFi shields/Yun too expensive? Embeddedcoolness.com is now selling the RFXduino nRF24L01+ <-> TCP/IP Linux gateway: Simpler, more affordable, and even more powerful wireless Internet connectivity for *all* your Arduino projects! (nRF24L01+ shield and dev board kits available too.)

Trixi

#2
Sep 11, 2013, 01:56 pm Last Edit: Sep 11, 2013, 02:06 pm by Trixi Reason: 1
Hoi pico,

Aha, so its possible - i thought i read something about that some time ago and was sure, that it can work this way (in case of the reason you claimed: costs, easy coding etc...)
So i will have a look on your given links soon.

---
Done - so this isnt a project as it but a company that sells some gateways.
But when you are writing "cheap" THEN i wanted to see "results" which are CHEAPER as the offers in the web and ebay.
Maybe you will have a look also to this thread
http://forum.arduino.cc/index.php?topic=179607.new;topicseen#new

or to this item:
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/2-4G-Wireless-Module-TLG10UA03-Embedded-Uart-Wifi-Module-UART-WiFi-Network-Server-Client-IEEE802-11b/988481350.html


only ~ 17 Bucks !


Doei
Trixi
Dum spiro, spero - if you find my posting helpful, please click my Karma :)

pico

#3
Sep 11, 2013, 03:55 pm Last Edit: Sep 11, 2013, 04:25 pm by pico Reason: 1

only ~ 17 Bucks !


I think you'll find that using the RFXduino gateway you can deploy a WiFi enabled Uno-class Arduino compatible dev board for < $20, all up, _including_ radio module... (that was a target price point for this project) so yes, significantly cheaper than even using a $17 wifi module from Aliexpress.

If there is a cheaper way to get a wifi enabled dev board deployed, of course I am interested, but I haven't seen anything that's even close so far.

Anyone else know of anything cheaper, or even comes close to $20/node?


 
WiFi shields/Yun too expensive? Embeddedcoolness.com is now selling the RFXduino nRF24L01+ <-> TCP/IP Linux gateway: Simpler, more affordable, and even more powerful wireless Internet connectivity for *all* your Arduino projects! (nRF24L01+ shield and dev board kits available too.)

Frederic_Plante

#4
Sep 11, 2013, 04:42 pm Last Edit: Sep 11, 2013, 05:31 pm by Frédéric_Plante Reason: 1
Yeah, I'm actualy proposing a

1$ NRF module + 4$ ENC28 module + 5$ Mini pro Way. So although it is less developed then the link you propose, Hey I have to leave some challenge for the player, It pretty much cost 10$ delivery included and it's the same philosophy. Here: http://forum.arduino.cc/index.php?topic=179607

But this is Wireless, thru NRF24, but it's not a real WIFI network. Let's not get confused about this, this is a NRF24 to Ethernet gateway, its not WIFI, Just like a Bluetooth to Ethernet gateway is not WIFI.

And What I was proposing to Trixi was to replace the 4$ ENC28 module for a 17$, delivery included, serial to WIFI module,  for convenience, which is the one you can find here :

http://www.aliexpress.com/item/2-4G-Wireless-Module-TLG10UA03-Embedded-Uart-Wifi-Module-UART-WiFi-Network-Server-Client-IEEE802-11b/988481350.html

This WIFI network adapter is cooler then the ENC28 module cause it has it's own IP Stacking built-in and it's WIFI adapter, but the result is still a NRF24 to WIFI gateway and not a WIFI network.

So that would make a 23$ project that does the same as the one you propose, if you put in some more coding.

Yeap that pretty much resume the thing. Have a nice one you guy. ;)
As we fight our way northward into the great unknown, only that one thing remains certain...

Frederic_Plante

#5
Sep 11, 2013, 05:10 pm Last Edit: Sep 11, 2013, 05:13 pm by Frédéric_Plante Reason: 1
Yep but your gateway use RJ-45 connection and cost:

RFX Gateway daughterboard + SD Card
Price: $39.95

http://embeddedcoolness.com/shop/rfx-gateway-options/#!prettyPhoto

The Wifi gateway I propose cost 23$, ok let's add 1$ worth of Dupon jumper wire,  2$ and for a SD card module, so 26$.

And worst case scenario let's go with a RJ-45 gateway, it's still still 12$ of modular piece + let's a 1$ Dupon jumper wire so 13$.

Personally I would go with the WIFI version cause it has stacking so you have more code space. It's better to pay the few extra buck to have the space to work well.

So RJ-45 to NRF24 cost 13$ double the price you get WIFI to NRF24.
As we fight our way northward into the great unknown, only that one thing remains certain...

pico

#6
Sep 11, 2013, 05:47 pm Last Edit: Sep 11, 2013, 06:00 pm by pico Reason: 1

But this is Wireless, thru NRF, but it's not a real WIFI network. Let's not get confused about this, this is a NRF to Ethernet gateway, its not WIFI, Just like a Bluetooth to Ethernet gateway is not WIFI.


Sure, and thats' a big difference: the RFXduino library actually includes support for TCP/IP streams across the nRF24L01+ link to the gateway, so you can run a webserver on your client Arduino, etc., just as if you had a WiFi shield. Check out the demo sketches: http://embeddedcoolness.com/docs/ A simple serial link to an Ethernet gateway such as a bluetooth link as you describe can't do this.


This network adapter is cooler then the ENC module cause it has it's own IP Stacking built-in and it's WIFI. So that would make a 23$ project that does pretty much the same as the one you propose, if you put in some more coding.


One thing to remember that using this approach is that you won't be able to secure sockets (SSL or TLS), so you can't connect to e.g. any url beginning https://. This is the same important limitation that the current WiFi shields and Ethernet shields run into.

This is not a problem when using the RFXduino gateway, because it is running Linux. That's why RFXduino is cheaper, simpler to program _and_ more powerful than the traditional WiFi/Ethernet shield approach.

WiFi shields/Yun too expensive? Embeddedcoolness.com is now selling the RFXduino nRF24L01+ <-> TCP/IP Linux gateway: Simpler, more affordable, and even more powerful wireless Internet connectivity for *all* your Arduino projects! (nRF24L01+ shield and dev board kits available too.)

Frederic_Plante

Quote
This is not a problem when using the RFXduino gateway, because it is running Linux. That's why RFXduino is cheaper, simpler to program _and_ more powerful than the traditional WiFi/Ethernet shield approach.


For what I can see the Raspberry Pie version is running Linux, but this version cost a 40$ extra. We are far from the <20$ project. ;)
As we fight our way northward into the great unknown, only that one thing remains certain...

Frederic_Plante

And still the answer to the question:

Quote
Wifi without WiFi shield only with NRF24L01+possible ?


Is still NO, your gateway is not a solution to connect a NRF24 card directly to a WIFI router as if it was a WIFI network adapter.

Don't get me wrong your product seam to have class and it look great, I say seam cause I have not tried it, but it's still not what Trixi is talking about.
As we fight our way northward into the great unknown, only that one thing remains certain...

Trixi

Hoi Guys,

i ONLY want to connect with the Arduinos to my WLAN to send data from these via TCP/IP to a self-brewed Win-Software.
As i want to implement several Arduinos the costs should be as low as possible - thats as a short detailed info  :D

So no need (for MY project) to connect to webservers etc.

Doei
Trixi
Dum spiro, spero - if you find my posting helpful, please click my Karma :)

Frederic_Plante

#10
Sep 11, 2013, 06:21 pm Last Edit: Sep 11, 2013, 06:28 pm by Frédéric_Plante Reason: 1
Well at the end, What Pico propose is the all ready up and running solution that I propose, It the same thing by the end.

He is proposing gateway, just like i am. ;)

It's just a matter to know do you want to make it all by your self, or do you want to buy it all done and ready to go.
As we fight our way northward into the great unknown, only that one thing remains certain...

pico


Quote
This is not a problem when using the RFXduino gateway, because it is running Linux. That's why RFXduino is cheaper, simpler to program _and_ more powerful than the traditional WiFi/Ethernet shield approach.


For what I can see the Raspberry Pie version is running Linux, but this version cost a 40$ extra. We are far from the <20$ project. ;)


It depends on how many clients (Arduinos) you run off the gateway. A single Raspberry Pi Linux gateway can connect multiple (up to a maximum of 255) Arduino clients to the network. After the inital cost of the gateway, additional clients can be deployed for < $20 each.

If you were only interested in deploying _one_ project to connect wirelessly to the Internet, I agree the the cost argument (by itself) is not particularly convincing. But if you want to deploy _two_ wireless projects, it becomes more compelling, and the more projects you want to deploy, the more compelling the price calculation becomes. I think by the time you get to three projects generally you will be way ahead of the game.

So, properly speaking, < $20 / node is what economists would call the marginal cost of deploying each additional node. But it is true, the gateway is an additional once off start-up cost, and it has to be divided by the number of deployed nodes to calculate the true cost of deployment per node.

But the marginal rate is important to consider. It's the number you consider when you ask yourself the question: "Should I make my next project wireless or not?" I wanted that number to be low enough that the cost was never a reason to prevent me adding wireless to a project, if I would otherwise add it. For me, $20 was the critical price point; for others it might be more or less, but that's why $20 was a "magic" number for the RFXduino project.


WiFi shields/Yun too expensive? Embeddedcoolness.com is now selling the RFXduino nRF24L01+ <-> TCP/IP Linux gateway: Simpler, more affordable, and even more powerful wireless Internet connectivity for *all* your Arduino projects! (nRF24L01+ shield and dev board kits available too.)

Frederic_Plante

Just can't wait to my hand on the new Yùn to give it a test drive:

http://store.arduino.cc/ww/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=11_12&products_id=313

Raspberry is nice but they like to sell there software, while Arduino has the good habit of giving every thing.

As we fight our way northward into the great unknown, only that one thing remains certain...

pico


And still the answer to the question:

Quote
Wifi without WiFi shield only with NRF24L01+possible ?


Is still NO, your gateway is not a solution to connect a NRF24 card directly to a WIFI router as if it was a WIFI network adapter.


You are correct. It is, of course, simply not possible to connect a nRF24L01+ directly to a WiFi router. A gateway or bridge of some sort is needed.


Don't get me wrong your product seam to have class and it look great, I say seam cause I have not tried it, but it's still not what Trixi is talking about.


Thanks for your kind words.  :)  I hadn't thought that Trixie might have been asking whether a nRF24L01+ module could connect to a WiFi router directly without a gateway or bridge.
WiFi shields/Yun too expensive? Embeddedcoolness.com is now selling the RFXduino nRF24L01+ <-> TCP/IP Linux gateway: Simpler, more affordable, and even more powerful wireless Internet connectivity for *all* your Arduino projects! (nRF24L01+ shield and dev board kits available too.)

pico


Well at the end, What Pico propose is the all ready up and running solution that I propose, It the same thing by the end.

He is proposing gateway, just like i am. ;)


Well, if I understand your proposal correctly, your gateway is not running Linux, but rather is a Arduino-class device?

In that case, the differences are actually quite significant; the raw processing power of a Raspberry Pi class device is many, many times that of an Arduino, and that becomes important e.g., in scaling to handling multiple devices at once.

So yes, both gateways, but there is much difference in the implementation detail, and that matters.

WiFi shields/Yun too expensive? Embeddedcoolness.com is now selling the RFXduino nRF24L01+ <-> TCP/IP Linux gateway: Simpler, more affordable, and even more powerful wireless Internet connectivity for *all* your Arduino projects! (nRF24L01+ shield and dev board kits available too.)

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