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Topic: ATTiny85. IDE responds:"Invalid device signature, define PAGEL and BS2 signals" (Read 12359 times) previous topic - next topic

Loers



Are these chips new? Is there any way they could have been programmed before?

Where are they from? The markings on the chip in that image don't look like my Tiny85s. Can you post a close-up of the chip?


Yes they are new. I got them from eBay 10 months ago, but never used them before.
Here is a close up.

Robin2

I normally use Opera but I have also looked at this Thread in Firefox and there is no sign of any images from LDavinci.

But it appears some people can see them. If you are one of the lucky ones, what browser are you using?

...R
Two or three hours spent thinking and reading documentation solves most programming problems.

fungus

The Atmel logo looks wrong to me, the lines in the logo are far too thick and the rightmost of the two vertical lines in the 'm' doesn't go all the way to the top.

The writing is also far too white (that's what called my attention in the first place). I always had trouble getting the writing on Atmel chips to appear at all in photographs but yours is as clear as day. Notice that you can't read the writing on the Uno's ATMega328 in your first photograph - that's what I'd expect to see from that distance/angle.

The date codes are a bit weird. You say you bought them ten months ago but the date codes say 2005/2006.

All in all ... I'd say there's a good chance they're fakes. There might be nothing at all inside the chips.

Don't worry, it's happened to people like Sparkfun, too: https://www.sparkfun.com/news/350
Advanced Arduino

Loers


I normally use Opera but I have also looked at this Thread in Firefox and there is no sign of any images from LDavinci.

But it appears some people can see them. If you are one of the lucky ones, what browser are you using?

...R

I think it is the server that I uploaded the photos to.
here are they on imageShack
The setup :
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/837/ihbt.jpg/
ATTiny Close-up:
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/580/uis3.jpg/

Loers


The Atmel logo looks wrong to me, the lines in the logo are far too thick and the rightmost of the two vertical lines in the 'm' doesn't go all the way to the top.

The writing is also far too white (that's what called my attention in the first place). I always had trouble getting the writing on Atmel chips to appear at all in photographs but yours is as clear as day. Notice that you can't read the writing on the Uno's ATMega328 in your first photograph - that's what I'd expect to see from that distance/angle.

The date codes are a bit weird. You say you bought them ten months ago but the date codes say 2005/2006.

All in all ... I'd say there's a good chance they're fakes. There might be nothing at all inside the chips.

Don't worry, it's happened to people like Sparkfun, too: https://www.sparkfun.com/news/350


How can I make sure that they are fake ?

JChristensen

Agree with @fungus' analysis of the chip markings. I might try the acetone test described here.

@Robin2, images fine here with Firefox 24.0 either on Linux or on Win8.

fungus


How can I make sure that they are fake ?


Check if any current is flowing when you connect the power lines. You should see a few milliamps. I doubt they'd put a resistor in there just to fool you.

Get a multimeter and check the resistance between Vcc and GND. If the chip is a dummy it will show 'infinite'.

Get a micrometer and measure it carefully, see if the dimensions match the datasheet.
Advanced Arduino

Robin2

I had version 13 of Firefox (because I seldom use it) and I upgraded to the latest version 24 on Xubuntu and still no sign of the images.

Should they appear in line or should I see a link to click?

...R
Two or three hours spent thinking and reading documentation solves most programming problems.

JChristensen


Check if any current is flowing when you connect the power lines. You should see a few milliamps. I doubt they'd put a resistor in there just to fool you.


I checked a few ATtiny85V-10PUs and they draw between 2.4 and 3.2 mA at 5V. That's with factory fuse settings and after a chip erase with AVRDUDE.

Quote

Get a multimeter and check the resistance between Vcc and GND. If the chip is a dummy it will show 'infinite'.


That's an interesting one, I get readings between 10M and 13M, they float around a lot. Probably depends on the meter too. Of course  a non-infinite reading does mean a good chip.

JChristensen


I checked a few ATtiny85V-10PUs and they draw between 2.4 and 3.2 mA at 5V. That's with factory fuse settings and after a chip erase with AVRDUDE.


I was curious about the rather large variation in current that I observed between different parts. Also, the datasheet indicates the supply current should be about 1.2 mA.  If I program the chip with code that does nothing but enable the pullup resistors, then I see current draw very close to 1.2 mA and also it's quite consistent between chips.

So take those numbers with a grain of salt.  'Course ya can't set the pullups if ya can't program the chip :~

They weren't kidding when they wrote that part in the datasheet about floating inputs.

Robin2

I can't imagine anyone would manufacture fake chips - it would be too expensive. I think it would be more "economic" to "buy" a load of reject chips and relabel them. If so they probably wouldn't show infinite resistance.

Of course someone might be making counterfeit Attiny's with poor quality control. Or maybe the patent(s) have expired on the design and they are legal but poor quality.

Or perhaps Atmel made some non-standard versions for a specific customer and they have escaped into the market?

That sort of problem can drive you nuts. The only solution is to get a couple of guaranteed genuine chips and try them.

...R
Two or three hours spent thinking and reading documentation solves most programming problems.

Tom Carpenter

I'd suggest as a last ditch attempt at getting them to work would be this:

http://www.rickety.us/2010/03/arduino-avr-high-voltage-serial-programmer/

It will revive them if the issue is just an incorrect fuse setting.

If that doesn't work, they are either dead or fake (or both).
~Tom~

fungus


I can't imagine anyone would manufacture fake chips - it would be too expensive. I think it would be more "economic" to "buy" a load of reject chips and relabel them. If so they probably wouldn't show infinite resistance.


The ones Sparkfun bought had copper slugs inside them - somebody definitely thought it was worthwhile manufacturing those (and putting something physical inside!)


Of course someone might be making counterfeit Attiny's with poor quality control. Or maybe the patent(s) have expired on the design and they are legal but poor quality.


The design would be covered by copyright. That takes a lot longer to expire.

The Tiny85s were released in 2005, any patents would also still be valid.
Advanced Arduino

fungus


It will revive them if the issue is just an incorrect fuse setting.

If that doesn't work, they are either dead or fake (or both).


They *might* be old chips that have been pulled out of some device for resale.

But I think it's unlikely. The writing on the chips is just plain wrong IMHO.

OP: Did you have to bend the legs inwards to get them to go into the breadboard?
Advanced Arduino

Loers

I just tried the other chip(0612) and it worked even though I tried programming it before!!
The blink sketch is working perfectly on it. I put back the (0548) chip and still it is not working, I checked the resistance between the vcc and gnd for both of them it is around 7.7 megs
could it be that sth wen wrong with fuses of the other chip ?

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