Go Down

Topic: Domino.IO project is on Kickstarter now (Read 8377 times) previous topic - next topic

ShapeShifter

#30
Apr 23, 2015, 12:36 am Last Edit: Apr 23, 2015, 12:37 am by ShapeShifter
I thought I would do some reading but I can't find this.

Do you have a link to it?

...R
The Open Source Software Definition

The Open Source Hardware Definition

Robin2

#31
Apr 23, 2015, 09:27 am Last Edit: Apr 23, 2015, 09:38 am by Robin2
Thanks @ShapeShifter - as usual.

While it is not stated in those documents (probably because the authors thought it was self evident) I reckon a fundamental part of "Open Source" is the prevention of monopoly abuse.

It is in that spirit that I reckon "Open Source" products are intended to be sold at cost-covering rather than exploitative prices.

And IMHO there is another moral imperative at work - an organization (Arduino) that sets out to encourage OpenSource products must be especially careful to keep its prices as low as possible. Just like church Ministers have a special duty not abuse children and the police have a special duty not to break the law.

...R
Two or three hours spent thinking and reading documentation solves most programming problems.

ShapeShifter

It is in that spirit that I reckon "Open Source" products are intended to be sold at cost-covering rather than exploitative prices.
That's your interpretation, not a formal policy.

It's also your interpretation that the current "free market" prices are exploitative.

Everyone has different opinions.

I'm just playing devil's advocate here, and not stating my own opinions (which are not yet fully formed.) But there is one more point to consider: there is debate about whether the Yun is actually Open Source. If it is not, why should it be bound by (your interpretation) of the Open Source values?

And speaking of cost covering, there is more to the cost of a board than the cost of parts and the labor to assemble it. Those are recurring costs, that occur every time a board is built. There are also one time non-recurring costs (called NRE - Non-Recurring Engineering) involved with the initial design of the board: the pay for the engineers designing and testing the board, the cost of the prototypes, the cost of the (usually expensive) RF equipment to test and calibrate the WiFi radio, the cost (always VERY expensive) to get agency certifications (like from the FCC), and many other costs. These costs can be very significant, and need to be paid. A portion of these costs are rolled into each unit. For a high volume product like the RPi, only a little needs to be added to each unit to quickly pay off the NRE expense. But for a comparably lower volume product like the Yun, a larger portion of the NRE investment needs to be added to each unit in order to pay it off in a reasonable amount of time.

NRE costs can be significant, especially for a complicated piece of RF equipment like the Yun. If a company can't recoup the NRE, they won't stay in business long. As an engineer who makes his living designing new products, and whose pay is 100% NRE, I'm hoping you're not saying I shouldn't be paid for my efforts? (Note, this is a general example, I have nothing to do with development of the Yun or any Arduino project.)

Robin2

@ShapeShifter, I have no wish to have an argument with you on this (or any other) matter. My comments are aimed at influencing pricing. If the Arduino folk wish to present the data to justify the price I will be pleased to read it.

I am well aware that more than the marginal production costs need to be recovered in the price of anything. I spent a considerable amount of time when I was working arguing that pricing at marginal cost was an abuse of a dominant position.

Even if the Yun is not a "proper" OpenSource product that does not OBLIGE the manufacturer to behave like "that firm in Seattle". There is much that is not OpenSource about the RPi.

...R
Two or three hours spent thinking and reading documentation solves most programming problems.

ShapeShifter

#34
Apr 23, 2015, 05:15 pm Last Edit: Apr 23, 2015, 05:19 pm by ShapeShifter
I'm not arguing. Like I said, I'm just playing devil's advocate to keep the conversation going, regardless of my personal opinions on the matter.

If the Arduino folk wish to present the data to justify the price I will be pleased to read it.
You paid the price and bought one. You apparently thought it was worth the price. That's all the price justification they need.  ;)

It really does come down to: "Why do they charge so much? Because they can!"

Quote
I am well aware that more than the marginal production costs need to be recovered in the price of anything.
That's good, there are a lot of people who don't understand that. They see the price of something, and ask why it's so expensive when they can buy the parts, copy the design, and build it themselves for much less. They neglect to consider the costs that went into the design, and they don't count the value of the time needed to build it. There are a lot of people who believe a product should cost just a little bit more than the cost of the parts, with no other considerations. That simply isn't the way that business works (as you know.)

Robin2

#35
Apr 23, 2015, 05:59 pm Last Edit: Apr 23, 2015, 08:05 pm by Robin2
You paid the price and bought one.
In part that was so I would have a right to complain about the price :)


Quote
That's all the price justification they need.
The main part of my complaint is that even though they CAN do it, they SHOULD NOT do it.

I understand the logic of Microsoft or Tesco charging as much as they can get away with. That is most definitely NOT the attitude I expect from the Arduino folks.

...R
Two or three hours spent thinking and reading documentation solves most programming problems.

ShapeShifter

Robin, I don't disagree with you. I'm running out of arguments for the devil's side of the story.

Squonk42

I thought I would do some reading but I can't find this.

Do you have a link to it?

...R
Here it is, at least GNU's definition of it:
http://www.gnu.org/gnu/manifesto.en.html

However, it is very software-oriented and only partly applies to Open Hardware. The big difference is unlike software, hardware is physically existing, and thus requires real-world manufacturing in order for it to exist. And our non-virtual world in turn is still based on free market and capitalism to run.

Squonk42

Thank you for this philosophical discussion on Open Hardware (I really mean it)!

Regarding the Yun, I can understand that they charge more than just the price of the parts. But a Yun is fundamentally just a Leonardo + a $25 TP-Link TL-WR703N attached to it (well a little bit more considering the Bridge, but not much, both in terms of design and parts).

There is no excuse for having the actual price tag for the Yun, besides raw margin and profit.

However, this would automatically be adjusted if the Yun were really Open Hardware, as other companies would be able to copy or enhance the design and sell it at a lower price point. Unfortunately, this is not the case, up to now, there exists NO Arduino Yun clone or derivative (well, I don't count in Linino, as they are the original manufacturer).

Domino is aiming at changing the game here: the Domino Qi is the first Arduino Yun compatible board, and it will be Open Hardware, with schematics, gerbers and BOM. And its sales price will be 1/2 of the original one, with a bare-bone Domino Qi Mini 1/2 of the size of the original Yun.

Now, other companies will be able to provide Un-compatible boards, and competition will be good for the users, as the price will come down to real design + production costs, rather than an arbitrary set high price tag only possible because of design monopoly.

ShapeShifter

However, this would automatically be adjusted if the Yun were really Open Hardware, as other companies would be able to copy or enhance the design and sell it at a lower price point.
Yes. And again, it all comes down to "because they can"  :smiley-twist:   ;)

Quote
with a bare-bone Domino Qi Mini 1/2 of the size of the original Yun.
I was just looking at that. I've been toying with building several boards (for personal use) that would have a Yun on them like a daughter card. Using something like the Qi Mini would work better for my uses, but I see that it doesn't have an SD card slot. I believe the only way to add it (in a way that is Yun compatible) would be to put the USB hub/SD card chip on my board, is that correct? I don't need the Ethernet port or USB port, but external storage would be nice.

Instead of putting in the USB hub chip, can the D+/D- pins on the Qi Mini go right to a USB socket so it could be used with a USB thumb drive? Would that accomplish my external storage goal? Or is something like the USB hub chip required, even for a single port?

jessemonroy650

@Robin2,

It's apparent you need indoctrination.  ;)
FWIW, this is what happens when you get a degree. ;)

Jesse


The Cathedral and the Bazaar
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cathedral_and_the_Bazaar

Read essay here:
The Cathedral and the Bazaar
http://www.catb.org/esr/writings/cathedral-bazaar/

Squonk42

I was just looking at that. I've been toying with building several boards (for personal use) that would have a Yun on them like a daughter card. Using something like the Qi Mini would work better for my uses, but I see that it doesn't have an SD card slot. I believe the only way to add it (in a way that is Yun compatible) would be to put the USB hub/SD card chip on my board, is that correct? I don't need the Ethernet port or USB port, but external storage would be nice.

Instead of putting in the USB hub chip, can the D+/D- pins on the Qi Mini go right to a USB socket so it could be used with a USB thumb drive? Would that accomplish my external storage goal? Or is something like the USB hub chip required, even for a single port?
You can just route the D+/D- signals straight to an USB socket, nothing required except the usual ESD/EMI/decoupling protections, and connect the smallest/cheapest possible USB thumb drive to get additional storage.

Robin2

#42
Apr 24, 2015, 09:53 am Last Edit: Apr 24, 2015, 09:57 am by Robin2
@Robin2,

It's apparent you need indoctrination.  ;)
I'm assuming that is intended as a compliment

Although I am not quite sure if you mean "indoctrinated so I don't object to high prices"  ?
If so, maybe "anaesthetised" would be a better word :)

Thanks for the links.

...R
Two or three hours spent thinking and reading documentation solves most programming problems.

jessemonroy650

I'm assuming that is intended as a compliment

Although I am not quite sure if you mean "indoctrinated so I don't object to high prices"  ?
If so, maybe "anaesthetised" would be a better word :)

Thanks for the links.

...R
READ.

Jesse

Robin2

READ.
I did read (quickly) through the links you posted in Reply #40 but it seems you are making some connection in your mind which is eluding me  :)

...R
Two or three hours spent thinking and reading documentation solves most programming problems.

Go Up