Go Down

Topic: OBD II Bike Connector - Pass via bluetooth (Read 88319 times) previous topic - next topic

noext

#165
Feb 18, 2021, 02:38 pm Last Edit: Mar 04, 2021, 12:11 pm by noext
Hello TriB

yes OBD command work with no issue but it me give very little results.

Here is a picture of all PIDs available ( scanned with torque ) : https://imgur.com/NJRLX38

as you can see it missing many informations from the old KDS ( gear position , Abs Pressure ) , informations that come from the diagnostic session ( 10 80 )
 And i'm more interest by those informations than the obd ones that why i'm trying to start the diag mode manually

i'm thinking that kawasaki has left the KDS functionality in parallel because i have found this software : "HealTech OBD Tool for kawasaki" , it come bundle with a obd diag tool from HealTech ( that look like just a fancy kds -> odb adapter ) , this software seems to have access to gear indicator etc and it supposed to be compatible with my z900 2017


sadly i cant try it because it has no macOS version

my goal is the remake a full tft dashboard with only the obd plug , so i need at least 95% ( no need for turn signal and blue light indicator )  of the original cluster information's ( the lcd cluster of the z900 is crappy AF )


TriB

Cool, that seems to confirm my expectations to have KDS & OBD in parallel!

This is also how cars diagnostic plugs work. They have K-Line and/or CAN-Bus (And more pins for official and manufacturer dependent features).

OBD2 has just a very small intersection with KDS. For my Z750r from 2012:
  • Freezed DTC
  • Engine coolant
  • Intake manifold absolute pressure
  • Enginge speed
  • Vehicle speed
  • Intake air temperature
  • Mass air flow sensor
  • Throttle position
  • Absolute barometric pressure
  • Control module Voltage
  • Secondary/Relative throttle position


It´s not very much, which was enhanced on your screenshot.

To get the K-Line, some OBD2 adapter can be configurated to use a specific protocol. But then you´d have to change a lot of parameter. Format, Sender, Receiver, Keepalive, and so on. Then make you own initialization and diagnostic sequence.
So you need at least a script, which configures the adapter every time. It´s easier to follow my attempt and use an L9637D with an Arduino or ESP rather than an adapter inbetween.

But: To replace the dashbard, why don´t you take that plug, which gives you all the data in a much faster interval?
KDS is limited to around 7 Messages per second. That sounds a lot, but using speed and rpm constantly and some other values (temperature, gear, ...) from time to time, you will be way to slow.
And KDS does not have the odometer or fuel.
That won´t work!

noext

#167
Feb 18, 2021, 05:54 pm Last Edit: Feb 19, 2021, 09:01 am by noext
But: To replace the dashbard, why don´t you take that plug, which gives you all the data in a much faster interval?
KDS is limited to around 7 Messages per second. That sounds a lot, but using speed and rpm constantly and some other values (temperature, gear, ...) from time to time, you will be way to slow.
And KDS does not have the odometer or fuel.
That won´t work!

i'm just a software dev , i can go my way around code and stuff but i dont know anything about electronic.
I thought of your solution of plugging directly into the cluster plug but it's out of my skills and I can't find any information about it.
At least with the KDS and OBD2 I can find information on the internet about the protocols.

I thought that the kds returned the fuel gauge information because I saw on another forum that it might be available on the zx6r.

edit : and what about the can HIGH and LOW in the plug ? how do they work ? same as the k-line ? or its for other thing ?

edit 2 : i have tried to run the ATMA command that supposed to monitor all CAN output and there is nothing

TriB

Same like me :D
I just found myself lost in all those electronics. A friend of mine helped me with the hardware a couple of years ago and now I think I got a resonably understanding.

KDS and how I use it, is great for submitting data to my camera. Or to read and delete Diagnostic Trouble Codes.
Even testing some actuators is possible. More or less I did exaclty the same, what Kawasaki did with its OBD2 compatibility.
They are still using KDS in the background (with mostly untouched hardware) and only put a "translator" on the top of it. I did it with Bluetooth, Kawasaki with CAN.
From my understanding (and you somehow prooved it), KDS is still the main protocol/communication/ECU "language".
It is put through by K-Line.
To be OBD2 compatible, the added a CAN interface, which just responds diagnostic requests, translates it to KDS internally and gave you the result. There is no real CAN-Bus on the bike, so ATMA gives you nothing.

To come back to your project:
It might sound more complicated to use the cluster pins, but those are plain signals. The only challange would be to handle 12V to Arduino (or whatever) friendly voltage. RPM and Speed are constand signals. KDS can only give you data on a request. And might be not that consistant, if there is only one byte wrong, you will have a ~5 second outage to reestablishe the diagnostic mode.

On KDS3 I cannot see something related to fuel for any model. But my data about that is ~5 years old. It might be, that they added it in the past years.

noext

Just to be sure, I'm going to buy a can bus reader for my Raspberry in case it's my obdlink that's blocking me with his processing   ( i have send a message to Scantool to know if its possible to use the OBDLINK SX at a pure raw can bus reader but they still doesn't reply to me )

I learned during my research that the zx10R 2016+ ( its the first kawasaki bike with EURO4 i think ) has a 2 connectors under the seat ( like the z900 ) and one is a real CAN-Bus with a lot of informations  ( see here : https://i.imgur.com/0Romwwh.png ). The zx10r is a wsbk bike so maybe that why kawasaki use a real can-bus on this model ( no wsbk team use the stock dashboard of the zx10r which is worse than the 900 ), but it give me hope that they use this can-bus on all of there euro4-5 bikes

TriB

Great idea! A CAN-Bus shield can never be wrong to have :D
I´m very exited to understand more about the future of KDS and CAN on Kawasaki bikes!
As I told, it was only an educated guess, that they only "fake" the CAN to be OBD2 compatible. And I think for bikes, which were just upgraded, they really did.
The Zx10r has a lot of components, which must communicate with each other. But some data might rely on the Kit-ECU.

What I think is, that all sensors (which are quite simple and submit just a linear signal) will still be analog. This is cheap, can easy be repaird, all shops know about those, no firmware needed and so on.

With upcoming IMU systems (KECS on Kawasaki) and upgraded dashboards, which are showing lean angle or even transfer data via bluetooth (yes the stole my idea :P ), they definitly need a bus in between.
So at least the ECU, ABS, IMU and dash will communicate over CAN bus.

No IMU, no flowing data on the CAN bus, like you saw with ATMA. But requesting specific data works!

This would be the best solution for Kawasaki. Keeping the most components state of the art. The ECU will still work with KDS and has optional CAN for OBD2. And you can enhance it with an IMU or newer dashboards.
Show owners worldwide can still use their diagnostic devices and don´t need trainings or something.

noext

#171
Mar 02, 2021, 04:53 pm Last Edit: Today at 08:28 am by noext
I received my RPI can hat today.
for the moment no luck, I don't have any data that goes up when I make a candump at 500kbps ( I just plugged the cables on CAN H and CAN L  , init the bus at 500kpbs  and run can-utils )

I searched on the internet and I'm pretty sure that this plug is the right one because someone got data from a kawasaki GTR1400 2011 which also has a 6 pin plug and like the ZX10R have a way more complex cluster ( with tyre pressure sensor and traction control mode )  than the z900


On the electrical diagram of the z900 CAN H/L are directly linked to the ecu.


Maybe like you said data can only be requested but i have no idea how to do that

( here is a picture of the 6 pins kds connector on my bike )





edit ( after finding battery for my voltmeter ) : there is activity on the K-line ( port 7 on the odb plug ) when i requested some OBD PID

both CAN H/L are at 2.5V ( with the ignition on ) that indicated there is no communication on the CAN BUS but they seems to be part of a CAN network because there is 60 ohms resistance between them


edit²: in the ecu wiring diagram of the z900 , there is indeed 2 CAN plug
(9. CAN Communication Line (High): GY/BL
10. CAN Communication Line (Low): LB)

after searching on internet it seem that is possible that some can network only emit data when "wake up"


edit3 : pretty sure the canbus on the z900 is useless, everthing can be done with the k-line when you enter diag mode ( 0x81 0x11 0xF1 0x81 0x04 ) , but i cant send this message with my obdlink sx , i may have to switch to a arduino and learn electronic , because there is no simple way of doing k-line with a raspberry pi

Go Up