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Topic: noob question: connectors (Read 3082 times) previous topic - next topic

Boardburner2

here the photos that you asked for (I only use the thin tip when dealing with 1.27mm stuff..):


The thin tip will take longer to heat up the joint.

raschemmel

#31
Apr 30, 2016, 04:49 pm Last Edit: Apr 30, 2016, 04:55 pm by raschemmel
The strangest thing about this post/thread is , that unlike countless others who have posted for the same problem over the years, who  read the replies on the forum and heeded the suggestions and advice , you sir, have yet to post:

""Well as soon as I read the replies, I rushed into my workshop, fired up my soldering iron , turned the temp up to 430 degrees, and tried soldrring a jumper wire to a male header , the same type I complained about in my original post so I could try making a solder joint using more heat for less time"

I wonder exactly how long you are actually touching the iron to the joint ?

Please solder a wire to a male header using your usual technique , and then one using the technique you were given by the exoerts ( more than one,) whose advice you solicited and failed to follow.

There is no point in posting on an International forum for advice if you are not going to follow it.

So far , all you have done is try to defend your poor technique which was the reason you posted in the first place. Not once did you say that you had tried my / our suggestion to use more heat and less time .  Can you submit any reason why we shouldn't think that instead of following the instructions you were given you are being stubborn and defensive ?

Boardburner  brought up another issue : it is possible that you are not choosing the correct tip for the job you are doing.

wothke

#32
May 04, 2016, 11:36 am Last Edit: May 04, 2016, 11:48 am by wothke
There is no point in posting on an International forum for advice if you are not going to follow it.

So far , all you have done is try to defend your poor technique which was the reason you posted in the first place. Not once did you say that you had tried my / our suggestion to use more heat and less time .  Can you submit any reason why we shouldn't think that instead of following the instructions you were given you are being stubborn and defensive ?
you did not read a single thing that I've been saying, did you? I already said that I am thankful for the *various* suggestions made in this thread (I admit though that I don't consider your suggestion to buy a new Weller iron to be one of those) and that I will use them trying to improve my technique (that includes the use of different temperatures)! Sorry that I don't "rush into my workshop right away" but at the moment I don't have any male headers that need soldering - so I'll just keep the suggestions in mind until the next time that I have to do some soldering..

By the way, you brought up the suggestion to use 430 degrees centigrade for my 60/40 rosin core solder only just now, so forgive me for not having thanked you for that piece of advice specifically before. (Until then the only specific "expert advice" that I had found - the web page that I refered to in one of my earlier posts - had suggested 370 degrees for this kind of solder.. so in spite of the fact that the unfounded rudeness of your above post really pisses me off - it still gives me the useful additional grain of information, that apparently I don't have to be afraid to turn the temperature up to the max when using 60/40 rosin core solder..)

raschemmel

#33
May 04, 2016, 02:56 pm Last Edit: May 04, 2016, 06:08 pm by raschemmel
I never suggested you were ungrateful. I simply did not see anyghing in your post confirming that you applied anything we said.

Did you , for example say :

" I am going to :
1- try higher temp for less time.
2- order some liquud flux and a squuze bottle.
3- order some solder paste
4- order flux brushes
5- order fux remover spray
6- practice soldering wires and headers until I get it right.

???


I don't think so.

What you said was:
" I have concluded the cause was not cleaning the parts with IPA ( which is normally not necessary because the header is brand new so it cannot possibly be of any relevance)
.
Reread ALL the posts and reply with a LIST of WHICH suggestions you will ( SOME DAY)  follow.
We take our time to post. You could take a minute to reply to EACH poster regarding EACH suggestion. Are you really too busy to do that ?
We are not looking for "thank you" .
We are looking for  "I read your suggestion and ....."


There are more than 30 replies to your post. Only maybe 4 of them are yours. Considerate posters reply to each and every member who takes the time to reply to the OP's post. For the most part, talking to you was like talking to a wall. We had to wait a long time before you even replied. You did , however post some nice photos, as asked , which was great.

Your response to numerous suggestions to use flux was
"my solder already has flux"
.

Think about it .

If we are suggesting you use 60/40 rosen core solder AND liquid flux, doesn't it seem obvious that what we are TRYING (possibly in vain) to TELL you , is that you need to put the FLUX ON THE SURFACE BEFORE YOU APPLY THE SOLDER, which OBVIOUSLY you CANNOT do with rosen core solder because by the time your rosen core solder flux touches the surface, the SOLDER IS ALREADY ON THE SURFACE !

Why is that so hard to grasp ?

Go back and reread all the replies. The bottom line is:

1-clean the surface with IPA (if it ISN'T BRAND NEW)
2- apply liquid flux to the surface BEFORE applying the solder.
3- if you are going to try using higher temp for less time ,  you will HAVE TO PRACTICE ! You CANNOT learn this techique in 5 minutes. Because you have to learn (through practice) HOW LONG TO PREHEAT the joint, BEFORE applying the solder and WHEN to REMOVE the tip from the joint.

you can buy a protoboard to use for practice. They cost less than $5. The male headers are not that expensive . You should be able to use a couple of those for practice.

4- c;ean the joint with flux remover spray and a flux brush

We are not fishing for "thank you's". We are looking for RESULTS. (confirmation that the OP learned and applied what we suggested)

Until you have actually done that , your post is NOT finished.

We want to see a post stating you did as recommended (until you got it right) and the what the results were and photos of the joints (of the male header).

FYI, are you aware that when soldering a male header, you are SUPPOSED to solder the two END connections FIRST , so it won't come out of the holes or solder on crooked ?
All I am looking for is (not a "thank you") but a "I tried soldering a header ( EVEN though I didn't need one) using your suggestion and..."

Try to focus on the mission without letting your emotions get the best of you.
Is it even a "mission" to you or was you post just idle curiosity ?
If if is a "mission" then the mission is not complete until you do what I outlined above.

We are only interested in results.

Sometimes an OP thinks we're rude and later realizes it was necessary to get their attention.

You can't make an omelette without breaking eggs...

wothke

I wasn't aware that (at least some) people are expecting an explicit acknowledgement for the receipt of their suggestions. Triggered by raschemmel's feedback I'll fix that issue now (and hope not to bore all those that never expected an acknowledgement):

Quote from: septillion
1) Sounds like you don't use the proper solder. Does it has flux in it?
I think I am using 1mm 60/40 rosin core solder. (I've been using the same coil for the past 20 years.. which says a lot about the quantities that I've been soldering ..)

Quote from: septillion
2) Don't bake them that long ;) And to solder the female part it can help to plug in a male part to stabilize them (leave them in until cooled).
yes, I usually stabilize the stuff by plugging it in before I solder. I am still experimenting regarding the bake time..

Quote from: septillion
And btw, if you need to set the soldering station higher "due to temperature drop along the tip" you're calibration is just off. Okay, most don't calibrate it but the set temperature should be the temperature of the tip. And a small not for the Chinese stations, most of them are like 50C hotter then you set them (without calibration)...
I've no means to verify the exact tip temperature myself.. but my ERSA MS 60C is supposedly temp controlled and and it hopefully is using the temperature that I set in the dial.
Quote from: septillion
I don't use extra flux, I just use (lead) solder with flux in it. Works great all the time.
Thank you for that statement. So there still is hope that I might be able to improve my results without having to add more chemistry.. (raschemmel, it might have slipped your attention, but not everyone here has been advocating the use of additional flux as a mandatory prerequisite for success..)
Quote from: septillion
It might be a bit of an older station but it is an Esra, nothing wrong with that. Tips might not be in mint condition but I would say they're not terrible.
Thank you :-)

Quote from: CrossRoads
Sounds like you need some Flux to help clean the contacts as you solder.
I've meanwhile received the "AMTECH Flux Type: NC-559-ASM-UV" that I had intended to use in case that I ever needed to do some SMD soldering.. I guess I'll try if that also helps in this scenario (once I figure out how to get it out of that "incomplete syringe"..)

Quote from: CrossRoads
Are you using lead-free solder? Switch to tin-lead solder, that can be easier to use also. Make sure you have a hot enough iron and a large enough tip for good heat transfer.
No, I am already using 60/40. Thanks for the heat transfer hint, but what exactly is hot enough (I am using 390 degrees centigrade).
Quote from: CrossRoads
Clean up with 99.9% anhydrous alchohol, or a lower amount if that's what you can get. (like 90, 95% at the drugstore).
I've not used that before so I'll just try if it makes a difference (maybe there is some residue from my sweaty fingers that needs removing..).
Quote from: CrossRoads
You can also crimp on connectors to your wires, or use pre-terminated wires: ..
I might look for those next time I need something from aliexpress.. unfortunately the links that you provided are not a viable option for me due to the excessive costs when shipping to Europe..

Quote from: DVDdoug
The only trouble like that I've had is that the male pins sometimes slide part-way out of the housing and then I get poor contact.       (If they are soldered to a board, of course that doesn't happen.)    
I also know that problem, but it's not the issue here.

Quote from: DVDdoug
There are all kinds of connectors - Do you have a catalog from an electronic parts supplier?  
no, I don't. I try to locate the stuff online - and for that it usually helps a lot to know what the parts are called.

Quote from: LarryD
Have you read the PDF offered here? http://forum.arduino.cc/index.php?topic=376971.msg2599211#msg2599211
thanks for the link, and yes I had read it. I do own a respective crimping tool and next time I order some stuff I'll probably throw in some connector casings for good measure.

Quote from: Chris1448
60/40 rosin core solder. Its actually worth your while to spend extra coin here.Not all solder is created equal.
1.5mm solder MHO,, works best for this
I am using 1mm solder, and from the little that remains of the original label it seems to be called "Ersin 60/40 Multicore Solder Wire". (At the time it had been a present and I'd be surprised if it wasn't some respectable product. I've been using it for the past 20 years.)

Quote from: Chris1448
Good solder and a 60w solder iron ,with a fine tip properly tinned and you should be able to dot these of with no issues.
I think solder or my iron should not be the problem here.


Quote from: MarkT
Correct iron temperature - use a temperature controlled iron, then it will work and you won't
oxidize and ruin the tips so quickly.  The actual setting is higher than the nominal value for the
solder due to temperature drop along the tip, so experimentation required.  If things are charring,
its way too hot.
I am already using a temp controlled iron. As for the ideal setting some more experimentation seems to be required..

Quote from: MarkT
Use rosin-cored solder - never ever use plumbers solder (these have acid fluxes that corrode
and destroy)

If you use lead-free (a good idea) then use the tin/silver/copper alloy, _not_ tin/copper, because
the former is a true eutectic solder and works.  tin/copper alloy is not eutectic and is horrid (but
cheaper).
I am using 1mm 60/40 Ersin Multicore

Quote from: MarkT
All parts to solder must be free of grease - do not finger everything first, bare clean metal...
Thanks for that hint. The person packaging the stuff in China or even I might have touched the bare matal and it might help if I clean it before soldering.. (.. I will try it)

Quote from: MarkT
Always always always clean the tip and apply fresh solder _immediately_ before use.  Otherwise
you are just smearing oxides on everything.  Dripping wet sponge for cleaning the tip works well.
That was one for my the short-list. Previously I have indeed occasionally been reusing old solder if it conveniently remained on the iron.. (I guess my copper-shavings also work to clean the iron.)

Quote from: MarkT
Tin each item first (to tin is to wet with solder)
I've been doing that already..


Quote from: MarkT
Then apply iron and solder to the parts to join, solder should melt and flow readily over both parts
and then remove solder, wait 1/2 second and remove iron.  Allow to cool without movement (which
can cause a pasty dry-joint)
Thank you for another gold nugget in here! I think that's just about what I am already trying to do - but my problem might be the "cool without movement" - since my hands are not very steady!

Quote from: MarkT
If you see any hint the joint is not wetted properly, or you see bubbles forming, you have a bad
joint.
I am already aware of that..

----------------------
to be continued in part2

DrAzzy

#35
May 05, 2016, 12:20 am Last Edit: May 05, 2016, 12:21 am by DrAzzy
AMTECH Flux Type: NC-559-ASM-UV

That stuff is okay. Cleaner to work with, but I like the generic yellow crap that I got from Amazon; it's a little more aggressive. The syringe? Just push the plunger down with a pencil (or your finger, except the inside of the barrel has some flux on it, and you have to wash your hands in rubbing alcohol or acetone to get it off).

The "no clean flux" is supposed to not need to be removed, though I sometimes do so get the sticky crap off the boards. I use rubbing alcohol 91% or denat (95% ethanol, denatured so you can't drink it - comes from hardware stores). The 70% stuff is garbage - no good for anything other than cleaning injuries; doesn't even burn very well.


Fresh solder is a must - the solder on the iron won't make a bond because of the oxide layer that forms on the surface. That's why sometimes it helps to add solder (or flux). I mean, consider drag soldering of SMDs - if you just put solder on the tip, and dragged it over the pins, you might have a blob of solder sitting on them, but it'd probably pop off if you dragged your fingernail over it. Add flux first, and there's a puff of smoke, and the same motion solders all the pins.

If soldering SMDs, you tack one pin down, then solder the rest - then you only have to hold it in place for the soldering of one pin. Obviously, you don't start soldering from the pin you tacked down, unless you want to feel like a fool. For soldering wires, once you've tinned the two things you're soldering, you often don't need to add more solder.

It helps to have more than two hands - unfortunately, most of us here are humans, with a mere two arms.
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wothke

(continued... part2)
--------------------

Quote from: Boardburner2
The connectors and board , how old are they ?
What board? This is about wires soldered to some (usually make) connector. But all the electronics parts (including connectors) that I am currently using got sent to me during the past 12 months..

Quote from: Boardburner2
Solder finish ?
none
Quote from: Boardburner2
Are you pre tinning the wires first ?
yes
Quote from: Boardburner2
The thin tip will take longer to heat up the joint.
yes, obviously.

Quote from: Paul__B
An abrasive such as steel wool or "Jif" ("Cif") might be more to the point.
Seems we are back to the sanding paper :-)

Quote from: raschemmel
The problem is your lack of experience with soldering makes it impossible for you to see the cold solder joints you are making.
yes, very likely.. and that's why I keep experimenting - e.g. based on suggestions that I've found here..

Quote from: raschemmel
The fact that you have not even mentioned flux in your post makes it obvious that you simply do not know how to solder , period and need to learn.
nothing wrong with learing :-)

Quote from: raschemmel
Your soldering iron, tips, and solder are garbage and your  friend doesn't know what he is talking about. .. Throw away all your soldering equipment and buy a Weller WP35 iron.
I don't agree with your evaluation of my equipement and eventhough you are of course entitled to your opinion the above statement diminuishes my confidence into whatever more reasonable advice you might have. I guess that my friend (who is a trained electronics enigineer) does know what he is talking about - but I may have misunderstood when he was talking about some specific soldering fluid..


Quote from: raschemmel
Buy Kester 44   60/40 Rosen Core Solder in the diameter you need and buy some solder paste and a flux pen or a bottle of liquid flux. The flux needs to be cleaned off with Spray on flux remover  and a flux brush after soldering.
I doubt that my Ersin 60/40 Multicore is in any way inferior to the product you are advocating above. What makes you think that it is? I had meanwhile received some additional AMTECH NC-559-ASM-UV that I was planning to experiment with.. but that will have to wait now since I had not ordered any flux remover / brush yet. (shipping from China may take up to 6 weeks - so please be patient for my experience report..)


Quote from: raschemmel
One thing I noticed is he had the temp rather low. This is a common mistake made by beginners who don't know how to judge when a connection is hot enough to solder.
It may be that 390degrees is too low and also that I may not always judge correctly when a connection is hot enough.


Quote from: raschemmel
Typically they apply the solder and the tip at the SAME time instead of heating the joint up for a few seconds at the right temp and then applying the solder.  
sorry but that's not the problem here..

Quote from: raschemmel
My guess is his problem is a combination of temp setting too low, not heating joint up long enough and removing iron before solder flows.
Of course that possibility cannot be ruled out completely. However from my experience there are other root causes that are much more likely in my case (see answers above).


Quote from: raschemmel
The trick to good solder joints is using a hotter tip but holding on the point of contact for a SHORTER period of time , as opposed to using a LOWER temp for a LONGER period of time. Either way, you need the paste to tin the tip and the flux to make the solder flow and stick and the flux remover and brush tro remove the flux.
Of course I will also continue to experiment with higher temperatures - the flux part may take a while longer (see shipping delay).

Quote from: raschemmel
...doesn't it seem obvious that what we are TRYING (possibly in vain) to TELL you , is that you need to put the FLUX ON THE SURFACE BEFORE YOU APPLY THE SOLDER... Why is that so hard to grasp ?
why? it is indeed obvious that YOU (and some others) are telling us that that's the only way to go. it is also obvious that other people in this thread say that THEY have no problem soldering without additional flux.. and they are not using a Weller either.. so I don't know how much truth is in either claim.. but it might indeed be helpful to me and so I obviously added the suggestion to lists of things to try in my future experiments..

Quote from: raschemmel
Is it even a "mission" to you or was you post just idle curiosity ?
I do not consider it idle curiosity when I try to avoid problems that I've already experienced in the past in my future projects. (However
I am not on a tight schedule and if shipping of some ordered part takes a month then so be it.. meanwhile I have plenty of other things to do..)

Quote from: raschemmel
FYI, are you aware that when soldering a male header, you are SUPPOSED to solder the two END connections FIRST , so it won't come out of the holes or solder on crooked ?
I always thought that that's the only logical way to do it.

Quote from: raschemmel
We are looking for RESULTS. (confirmation that the OP learned and applied what we suggested)
...
We want to see a post stating you did as recommended (until you got it right) and the what the results were and photos of the joints (of the male header).
..
Until you have actually done that , your post is NOT finished.

fine with me.. the original problems - the ones that are the base of this thread - usually materialized some months after I had soldered the pieces, i.e. at first everything looked fine and it took months of wear and tear (repeated plugging/unplugging) for the problems to suddendly pop-up. Upun initial inspection (after the soldering) I was not able to see that there actually was a bad joint. So there is no point to give any short term success results because only the test of time will tell if I'll not run into the same problems 2 month down the road. The "easy" part is only that of the wires that completely snap off the male headers - because that I guess can be simulated using some brute force.. as for the rest you'll have to be more patient for RESULTS.



raschemmel

#37
May 05, 2016, 01:08 am Last Edit: May 05, 2016, 01:12 am by raschemmel
Look for dielectric grease.

If you apply this with a dry flux brush to your male headers they will slide in easier , reducing the stress on you solder joints. A single header pin does not have much friction. When you add up the combined friction of 10 or 20 header pins, it could be enough to stress the solder joints. The dielectric grease , if applied sparingly can make them slide in and out easier.

On the subject of using liquid flux, I was not a believer until I tried soldering fine pitch SMD chips with 50 or more pins. I was unable to do it successfully until I tried the liquid flux. After that , I started using it on everything. Now, if I am soldering at home and I don't have the squeeze bottle of liquid flux, I use a flux brush to apply flux paste after heating up the joint. It makes the solder flow smoothly .

wothke

AMTECH Flux Type: NC-559-ASM-UV

That stuff is okay.
..
thanks, I'll just use it and see what happens..

raschemmel

#39
May 05, 2016, 05:19 pm Last Edit: May 05, 2016, 05:20 pm by raschemmel
This
and
this

are what WE use at work.

The reason is the capillary needle tip squeeze bottle allows access to hard to reach places in a PCB.

wothke

Look for dielectric grease.
...
On the subject of using liquid flux, I was not a believer until I tried soldering fine pitch SMD chips ..
One of the reasons why I may not be answering all posts: "You have exceeded the number of posts you can make in a 5 minutes period. Please try again later."

Thanks for the hints, I'll try to find the grease where I live. And I can see that additional flux might just make life a whole lot easier - so I'll just use it and see what happens...

wothke

We are only interested in results.
well, I have a preliminary result that I can share with you:

I used the additional flux to tin both ends before joining them (other than that I stuck to my previous beginner's technique). I had the impression, that the extra flux indeed eased the bonding with the respective base materiel (probably chromed metal in the case of the male header - and I have no idea what my twisted silver wires might be made of):



Without an extra hand I first used the solder already present on the two sides to join them (my usual technique). The joints seemed to be adequate but I was able to peel the wires off with some force rather easily. Still the bonding to the male header always held (which is an improvement) and it looks as if it is the solder or the bonding to the wire that tore (see above). As I had mentioned before my unsteady hands may have contributed some movement during cool down..

I therefore did a second test using an addtional 3rd-hand to keep everyting still - and which allowed me to also add some extra solder while joining the two sides. Indeed the result was more sturdy and it took more force to peel the wires off:




For practical purposes I would think that both attempts would have been adequate.


raschemmel

I can't tell from your post exactly what you mean by "I used the additional flux to tin etc..."

Do you mean you applied flux to the joint BEFORE applying solder ?

wothke

#43
May 06, 2016, 12:06 am Last Edit: May 06, 2016, 12:23 am by wothke
I can't tell from your post exactly what you mean by "I used the additional flux to tin etc..."

Do you mean you applied flux to the joint BEFORE applying solder ?
yes, I applied flux to the blank wire as well as to the male header, then I heated and applied solder to both of them individually, then I soldered the wire to the header. (For my 2nd attempt I tried the final step with and without extra flux - did not seem to make any difference.. for the 1st attempt I had just fused the solder already present on both ends - without additional solder or flux.)

Boardburner2

#44
May 06, 2016, 12:12 am Last Edit: May 06, 2016, 12:45 am by Boardburner2
I can only think that your problem is that you are not getting the heat into the joint fast enough.
A slow heat up will soften the plastic.
How do you do when soldering wires to a PCB pad. ?

EDIT

Considerable pressure helps here if everything is tinned and fluxed.

If both wire and connector are loose this is difficult to do.
Can you clamp one or the other in a vice ?

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